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Bahman
Guest
I cannot find a priest and that is why I am asking here.
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Bahman
Guest
I don’t know why I don’t like this picture of God who does all micromanaging.
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Bahman
Guest
I did read your theory. Soul is immaterial meaning that it cannot have any from which is what you are assuming.I do not believe you read my “theory”. It does not depend on the soul being “decomposed”.
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Maddie26
Guest
Do you think a Catholic forum is the place to be criticising the idea of a God in control of spiritual matters? Go to the Ask an Apologist section since it seems you are determined to find fault. It seems you already have your own theory, of which you wish to convict us.
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Bahman
Guest
I don’t have my own theory which is satisfactory but I have a simple question: Lets put everything which can have a form in one basket and call it matter. Soul is not material hence it has to be formless which means all souls look like identical in absence of matter which problematic for several reasons.
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Maddie26
Guest
This is a non sequitur. You can’t make it follow because you want it to follow.
Why assume that something that is not material is formless and therefore unidentifiable? You can’t see wind, gas, gravity or the Higgs Bosun particle but that doesn’t mean that oxygen is nitrogen. Each thing, though invisible to the naked eye and formless in the sense they are diffuse, is distinct. We knew these things existed long before we could measure or identify them because we could see their effects on the physical world.
Just because something is formless doesn’t mean it loses all identifying marks. For example, I was baptised. That marked my soul. It didn’t mark my body. My soul retains that mark after it separates from my body, or so Catholics believe. That and other marks make it Maddie’s soul, not Mary’s soul. Therefore resurrection is not problematic at all.
To repeat, formlessness does not equal loss of identity. In the same way, all that matter you put in one basket is not identical matter- my body is not Mary’s body, just as my soul is not Mary’s soul.
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Maddie26
Guest
It’s like saying that my cat is a cat. Your cat is a cat. Therefore all cats look the same and it is impossible to tell them apart. That’s a non sequitur. Just because souls don’t look different to the eye doesn’t mean they’re identical.
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Vico
Guest
Form has more than one definition. In the following, prime matter does not exist, it is rather pure potency.
**Substantial form ** - informs prime matter which brings a new substance into existence.
Accidental form - informs an already existing composite of substantial form and prime matter which modifies some substance.
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Bahman
Guest
It is not.
We did put everything which has form in one category. I am not aware of anything which has form and it is not matter.
Something which is formless lose its virtue when you mark it.
Something which is formless is unidentifiable.
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Bahman
Guest
Lets consider the case of human which is built of soul and matter. Soul is the form of body. Which of your definitions fits for soul?
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runningdude
Guest
In your original post, you seem to be “puzzled” because you have an incomplete definition of soul. You say that the soul is formless after death, and this is incorrect. The soul changes form throughout one’s life, and indeed this change is integral to Catholic doctrine.
At a minimum, the soul is can be sacramentally cleansed of sin, baptized, and marked with a Christian character. It can also be marked with the Holy Spirit at confirmation, and indwelled with the priestly nature through reception of Holy Orders.
The soul is not some blank template that is reset upon death, but a dynamically and durably changed throughout one’s life. As a human person grows from a single cell to adult, his soul is changed. As a human gains knowledge, his soul is morphed. As a human commits sin, his soul is harmed. As a human participates in the sacraments, his soul is strengthened. The soul changes. It is not immutable. It is uniquely identifiable with an individual.
Death is the ultimate harm that results from sin. The “bucket” I described, uniquely contoured to that individual, endures after death. It is simply not formless and devoid of attributes.
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Vico
Guest
Human bodies are prime matter and form. The human rational soul is the only substantial form of the human body, and all other (non-essential) features are accidental forms of the human body.
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Maddie26
Guest
Perhaps “Catholics believe…” was the principal point of my post. Most Catholics would refute the three points given above and if you’re not willing to entertain any other ideas then there’s no further point talking about this. I hope that one day you find that there is more in heaven and earth than is dreamt of in your philosophy.
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eazyduzit
Guest
Interesting question Brahman. You’re right, this can be puzzling, until you start to put together all the scriptural evidences.
I will be speaking from a Pentecostal perspective if that’s alright.
We are not dualistic but see ourselves as a 3 part being.This Bible says we are made in the image and likeness of God and He is a trinity, so body, soul, and spirit reflect that truth. We see the soul as the meeting place or connection of body and spirit. Soul is the center of mind, will, and emotions. Different functions of each were expressed by Mary in Lk1:46-47,
And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord, And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my savior."
This expresses the functions and state of soul and spirit. The soul is presently engaged in the work of “being saved”, while the spirit has been saved and sealed by the Holy Spirit and is set aside as in “hath rejoiced” signifying that it is already a done deal.
Now I would take you to the experience of St. Paul in 2Cor12:2-4. Paul was caught up to heaven. Whether it was in the body or not, he said he couldn’t even tell, which speaks of just how real an experience it was, but we can probability assume it was in the spirit just as we find St John taken up in Revelation 4:1,2. In v.1 God says “come up hither” and then in v.2 he finds himself in the spirit.
Now, what we believe is that we are a spirit with a soul, having a physical life in a body.
There are a lot of teachings on this subject and here is one i like and l hope it may add some deeper revelation for you. youtube.com/watch?v=mg1QRW0dlT0&feature=youtube_gdata_player
This is actually a huge subject.
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Bahman
Guest
Ok. So we start with one sperm and one egg which are both alive. We know the rest of story: Sperm enter into egg and produce embryo. What is the use of soul when the basic ingredient is alive and functioning?
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Vico
Guest
The soul provides the rational faculty unique to that person, and safeguards the substance of bodily features and of mental characteristics, insofar as they depend on organic functions.
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GEddie
Guest
The sperm contains the life of the father, the egg the life of the mother; soul appears at the formation of the new life, that was not there before.
ICXC NIKA
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Bahman
Guest
The new life could be emergent. I have a new thread for this and I would appreciate your thought to be discussed there if you are interested.
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Bahman
Guest
A new born baby doesn’t have any rational faculty. We basically learn rationality later in our life.
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Vico
Guest
For several years after birth a person has not acquired the use of reason, and for some it never occurs. Yet, there is still a rational faculty which is innate (belonging to the essential nature). The soul provides the innate rational faculty.
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