Soul and resurrection?

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davidv said:
You have not shown that the soul needs a shape to interact with the body.
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I have shown. Again, the interaction has to be local since there is nothing between soul and body to let them interact. Local interaction requires that soul has a shape.
 
Bahman said:
Where do you have a problem so we can discuss it?
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This sentence from the OP is highly problematic.
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Bahman:
This means that soul is formless after death hence all attributes like, personality, identity, etc are gone upon death meaning that all souls do look similar after death.
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You have not shown this statement to be true. You have presented no evidence, nor a logically valid argument, in support of it.

The conclusion reached in the OP:
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Bahman:
The act of resurrection is problematic now since all attributes related to a person is gone upon death.
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is based on this likely false premise is unsound. And based on Catholic theology is false.
 
Bahman said:
There is noting except soul and body to let them interact hence the local interaction is the only possibility but the local interaction is impossible because the soul does not have any shape.
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You are predicating that shape is required for interaction. What was said before was that the soul does not have physical form. There is also spatial form, which is not physical shape. We read that St Thomas Aquinas accepted St. Augustine’s view and explained that the soul is completely present in each part of the body just as in a specific sense whiteness is completely present in each part of the surface of a blank sheet of paper. The whole soul is in each part of the body by totality of perfection and of essence.

Summa theologica, part 1, question 76, art. 8

Since, however, the soul has not quantitative totality, neither essentially, nor accidentally, as we have seen; it is enough to say that the whole soul is in each part of the body, by totality of perfection and of essence, but not by totality of power. For it is not in each part of the body, with regard to each of its powers; but with regard to sight, it is in the eye; and with regard to hearing, it is in the ear; and so forth. We must observe, however, that since the soul requires variety of parts, its relation to the whole is not the same as its relation to the parts; for to the whole it is compared primarily and essentially, as to its proper and proportionate perfectible; but to the parts, secondarily, inasmuch as they are ordained to the whole.

newadvent.org/summa/1076.htm#article8
 
Vico said:
You are predicating that shape is required for interaction. What was said before was that the soul does not have physical form. There is also spatial form, which is not physical shape. We read that St Thomas Aquinas accepted St. Augustine’s view and explained that the soul is completely present in each part of the body just as in a specific sense whiteness is completely present in each part of the surface of a blank sheet of paper. The whole soul is in each part of the body by totality of perfection and of essence.

Summa theologica, part 1, question 76, art. 8

Since, however, the soul has not quantitative totality, neither essentially, nor accidentally, as we have seen; it is enough to say that the whole soul is in each part of the body, by totality of perfection and of essence, but not by totality of power. For it is not in each part of the body, with regard to each of its powers; but with regard to sight, it is in the eye; and with regard to hearing, it is in the ear; and so forth. We must observe, however, that since the soul requires variety of parts, its relation to the whole is not the same as its relation to the parts; for to the whole it is compared primarily and essentially, as to its proper and proportionate perfectible; but to the parts, secondarily, inasmuch as they are ordained to the whole.

newadvent.org/summa/1076.htm#article8
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What will happen for spatial form after death?
 
davidv said:
This sentence from the OP is highly problematic.
You have not shown this statement to be true. You have presented no evidence, nor a logically valid argument, in support of it.

The conclusion reached in the OP:is based on this likely false premise is unsound. And based on Catholic theology is false.
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The soul apparently has spatial form/shape when the person is alive. What happen for this form upon death?
 
Bahman said:
What will happen for spatial form after death?
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The Catechism states;
997 What is “rising”? In death, the separation of the soul from the body, the human body decays and the soul goes to meet God, while awaiting its reunion with its glorified body. God, in his almighty power, will definitively grant incorruptible life to our bodies by reuniting them with our souls, through the power of Jesus’ Resurrection.
 
Vico said:
The Catechism states;
997 What is “rising”? In death, the separation of the soul from the body, the human body decays and the soul goes to meet God, while awaiting its reunion with its glorified body. God, in his almighty power, will definitively grant incorruptible life to our bodies by reuniting them with our souls, through the power of Jesus’ Resurrection.
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Nah, that is not what I wanted. What exactly happen for the spatial shape of soul?
 
Bahman said:
Nah, that is not what I wanted. What exactly happen for the spatial shape of soul?
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The soul is an incomplete substance, destined to be reunited with the body. The soul is incorporeal.

St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologiae Q76, A1:

Reply to Objection 1. Incorporeal things are not in place after a manner known and familiar to us, in which way we say that bodies are properly in place; but they are in place after a manner befitting spiritual substances, a manner that cannot be fully manifest to us.

newadvent.org/summa/5069.htm

“… the created spirit is limited to a single space (definite presence), for example, the soul to one single body, Christ’s Body is at one and the same time, present in many places.” – Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, Ludwig Ott.p. 389
 
Vico said:
The soul is an incomplete substance, destined to be reunited with the body. The soul is incorporeal.

St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologiae Q76, A1:

Reply to Objection 1. Incorporeal things are not in place after a manner known and familiar to us, in which way we say that bodies are properly in place; but they are in place after a manner befitting spiritual substances, a manner that cannot be fully manifest to us.

newadvent.org/summa/5069.htm

“… the created spirit is limited to a single space (definite presence), for example, the soul to one single body, Christ’s Body is at one and the same time, present in many places.” – Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, Ludwig Ott.p. 389
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So it doesn’t have any spatial shape?
 
Bahman said:
I have. Soul cannot have any spatial shape after death unless the God intervene. I just wanted to know your opinion first.
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My opinion, like yours, is of no consequence, unless it is backed up with evidence and sound logic.

My opinion is the you do not understand what a soul is in Catholic theology and as a result you have little understanding of what the Catholics have posted in response to the OP. As a result, the same claims, unsupported, get repeated by you.
 
davidv said:
My opinion, like yours, is of no consequence, unless it is backed up with evidence and sound logic.
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I provided a sound logic.
davidv said:
My opinion is the you do not understand what a soul is in Catholic theology and as a result you have little understanding of what the Catholics have posted in response to the OP. As a result, the same claims, unsupported, get repeated by you.
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In simple word, soul is life and need to have spatial form in order to inform body hence it could not have any spatial form after death.
 
Bahman said:
I provided a sound logic.
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Where? It was certainly not in the OP.
In simple word, soul is life and need to have spatial form in order to inform body hence it could not have any spatial form after death.
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That is not consistent with Church teaching. Therefore it is a straw man. An invalid argument.
 
Bahman said:
So it doesn’t have any spatial shape?
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The Church does not commit to very many details. St. Augustine of Hippo, (De quantitate animae 1.2; 5.9) states that the soul has no spatial dimensions.

St. Thomas was a dualist, but not a materialist, and you have seen some of his teachings.

I believe there are just a few dogmas specifically on the soul:

defined
  • Man consists of two essential parts–a material body and a spiritual soul.
  • The rational soul is per se the essential form of the body.
  • Every human being possesses an individual soul.
certain
  • Every individual soul was immediately created out of nothing by God.
 
i know someone who saw a human soul, but that does not matter here, as the apostles saw the souls of moses and elija speaking to our lord. those souls of men long dead appeared to the apostles as real men, recognizable, with arms, legs, and holding a conversation with another man who was not as yet quite dead.
 
You said:
i know someone who saw a human soul, but that does not matter here, as the apostles saw the souls of moses and elija speaking to our lord. those souls of men long dead appeared to the apostles as real men, recognizable, with arms, legs, and holding a conversation with another man who was not as yet quite dead.
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Not only ‘not quite dead’, but fully alive 🙂
 
davidv said:
Where? It was certainly not in the OP.
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It was mainly in OP but this is a discussion so for now everything should be clear as it was stated in my last argument,
davidv said:
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That is not consistent with Church teaching. Therefore it is a straw man. An invalid argument.
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The first part is basically church teaching unless you state otherwise. Soul is form of body simply means that soul is life and has spatial shape in order to inform body. The conclusion is what follows from what is stated, namely the soul doesn’t have any spatial shape upon death.
 
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