Southern Baptists and saved/born again...

[Jim_Dandy]

I’m afarid that it is the Catholic church that has added additional layers of authority that are not biblical - bishops, arc-bishop, cardinals, etc

justnobody

Deacon, priest, and bishop are biblical offices. Archbishop is just a title that means a bishop in charge of other bishops. Cardinal is not an office either; it is a designation for certain clerics and identifies them as having been chosen as advisors to the Pope. Pope (Greek pappam, Latin papa) is English. It means Father. All priests are called father; they are spiritual fathers, as St. Paul was: “I became your father through the Gospel” (1 Cor 4:14-15). St. Paul also said “Be imitators of me as I am of Christ” (I Cor 11:1). The Pope is the Top Father.

Jim Dandy

 

[pablope]

Jesus Christ, of course, no pastors or deacon will have a successful ministry unless he is called by God to serve in said ministry

With due respect, justnobody…my question is…do they follow the model/example of St. Paul?

From Acts 13:

1Now there were in the church at Antioch prophets and teachers, Barnabas, Simeon who was called Niger,[a] Lucius of Cyrene, Manaen a member of the court of Herod the tetrarch, and Saul. 2While they were worshiping the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said, “Set apart for me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them.” 3Then after fasting and praying they laid their hands on them and sent them off.

You see from this passage, the HS does not directly tell Paul and Barnabas to go on their missionary journey. Through the elders of the Church at Antioch, the HS instructs them to set apart Saul (later to become Paul) and Barnabas. And then they are ordained by laying of hands and sent.

This is how it is in the CC, with the discernment of the HS, there is the approval of the bishop, prior to ordination of a priest, and being laid hands before being sent to ministry.

Sure, there is the discernment and the calling to be a priest, but no one just comes and declares himself a priest and establishes a parish.

And this ensures apostolic succession. Let me ask you a question, and you may know the answer already: Who established the Church at Antioch?

And who do you think adheres more to the Bible in this case, the CC or your denomination?

 

[pablope]

I’m afarid that it is the Catholic church that has added additional layers of authority that are not biblical - bishops, arc-bishop, cardinals, etc

justnobody

Here is a passage from the Didache…if you have not heard this…this is the earliest written form of the teaching of the Apostles.

Chapter 15. Bishops and Deacons; Christian Reproof. Appoint, therefore, for yourselves, bishops and deacons worthy of the Lord, men meek, and not lovers of money, and truthful and proved; for they also render to you the service of prophets and teachers. Therefore do not despise them, for they are your honored ones, together with the prophets and teachers. And reprove one another, not in anger, but in peace, as you have it in the Gospel. But to anyone that acts amiss against another, let no one speak, nor let him hear anything from you until he repents. But your prayers and alms and all your deeds so do, as you have it in the Gospel of our Lord.

Source: earlychristianwritings.com/text/didache-roberts.html

And here is another one, from Clement of Rome, a disciple of St. Peter, writing of the instructions he received:

CHAPTER 42 – THE ORDER OF MINISTERS IN THE CHURCH.

The apostles have preached the Gospel to us from the Lord Jesus Christ; Jesus Christ [has done sol from God. Christ therefore was sent forth by God, and the apostles by Christ. Both these appointments, then, were made in an orderly way, according to the will of God. Having therefore received their orders, and being fully assured by the resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ, and established in the word of God, with full assurance of the Holy Ghost, they went forth proclaiming that the kingdom of God was at hand. And thus preaching through countries and cities, they appointed the first-fruits [of their labours], having first proved them by the Spirit, to be bishops and deacons of those who should afterwards believe. Nor was this any new thing, since indeed many ages before it was written concerning bishops and deacons. For thus says the Scripture a certain place, “I will appoint their bishops s in righteousness, and their deacons in faith.”

CHAPTER 44 – THE ORDINANCES OF THE APOSTLES, THAT THERE MIGHT BE NO CONTENTION RESPECTING THE PRIESTLY OFFICE.

Our apostles also knew, through our Lord Jesus Christ, and there would be strife on account of the office of the episcopate. For this reason, therefore, inasmuch as they had obtained a perfect fore-knowledge of this, they appointed those [ministers] already mentioned, and afterwards gave instructions, that when these should fall asleep, other approved men should succeed them in their ministry.

What you will notice is that this follows the Biblical model of St Paul as recounted in Acts 13.

 

[justnobody]

How does one know which are “fake Baptist” and which are “true Baptist”?:

a true baptist church is one that is started under the auspices of a supporting organization such as a Regular Baptist Church under the auspices of the GARBC or Southern Baptist under the SBC

anybody that starts their own church can call it anything they like even catholic, but that does mean it is a catholic church same as someone starting a church and calling it baptist does not make it a Baptist church

JUSTNOBODY

 

[zz912]

Jesus Christ, of course, no pastors or deacon will have a successful ministry unless he is called by God to serve in said ministry

Jesus Christ personally interviews, hires, disciopines, and fires these pastors and deacons? Or is there a church council or congregation vote?

Where is the authority given in the Bible for churches to hire and fire pastors and deacons?

 

[justnobody]

Jesus Christ personally interviews, hires, disciopines, and fires these pastors and deacons? Or is there a church council or congregation vote?

Where is the authority given in the Bible for churches to hire and fire pastors and deacons?

Just as the Lord personally called each apostle individually, in the same manner he calls each pastor. Just as Jesus Christ calls each of the elect to salvation with a efficacious call He calls each pastor to the ministry

justnobody

 

[Farsight001]

Just as the Lord personally called each apostle individually, in the same manner he calls each pastor. Just as Jesus Christ calls each of the elect to salvation with a efficacious call He calls each pastor to the ministry

justnobody

But they became apostles through formal ordination by other apostles. Most pastors do nothing more than declare themselves the pastor, which is definitely in contrast with the bible way. Just because they’re called doesn’t mean they’re doing it the way God planned.

 

[justnobody]

But they became apostles through formal ordination by other apostles. Most pastors do nothing more than declare themselves the pastor, which is definitely in contrast with the bible way. Just because they’re called doesn’t mean they’re doing it the way God planned.

Each of the orginal twelve apostles were personally chosen by Jesus Christ and were not ordined by other apostes.

canidates of pastor must go before an ordination council and not all that do are approved.

justnobody

 

[SteveGC]

Each of the orginal twelve apostles were personally chosen by Jesus Christ and were not ordined by other apostes.

The original twelve were ordained by Jesus by His very selection of them. Subsequent men were ordained through the laying on of hands by the apostles or other men appointed by Christ, because He was no longer present in the flesh. This is supported in Scripture, particularly Acts. The model of church leadership is laid out fairly clearly in Scripture. It is an obvious structure of laying on of hands from men who drew their authority from a succession of ordination going back to Christ Himself. Once you break from this successive chain of ordination, there is no more valid ordination, and therefore no valid position of church leadership. (stated more bluntly, if you are not a validly ordained Catholic or Orthodox clergyman, you are not a valid clergyman, whether it be pastor, priest, bishop, or what have you).

canidates of pastor must go before an ordination council and not all that do are approved.

An “ordination council” made up of whom? By what authority or background do they ordain? Again, one must show valid succession down from the 12.

 

[zz912]

Just as the Lord personally called each apostle individually, in the same manner he calls each pastor. Just as Jesus Christ calls each of the elect to salvation with a efficacious call He calls each pastor to the ministry

justnobody

Jesus Himself personally appears at Second Baptist Church of East South Wherever and makes the decision to hire or fire a pastor? And these decisions are accepted by the congregation without them lifting a finger???

Yes or no, does virtually very Baptist church have a committe or congregational vote on hiring, firing, punishing, and rewarding pastors and deacons. Please answer yes or no.

And if you answered yes above, please show where this authority is in the Bible.

 

[Jim_Dandy]

a true baptist church is one that is started under the auspices of a supporting organization such as a Regular Baptist Church under the auspices of the GARBC or Southern Baptist under the SBC

anybody that starts their own church can call it anything they like even catholic, but that does mean it is a catholic church same as someone starting a church and calling it baptist does not make it a Baptist church

JUSTNOBODY

Do you mean that all those Independent Baptist ecclesial communities are not real Baptists? I don’t think they will agree with you. How about the American Baptists aka the Northern Baptists? How about the Free Will Baptists? Real or Fake? And the Two-Seed in the Spirit Predestinarian Baptists? Duck River Baptists? There are many more. Who is the authority who says these are Baptists, those are not? Is it you?

There is an Authority in the Catholic Church who certifies Catholics from those Not Catholic, in spite of their purloined name. His title is Pope.

The first Baptist organization was formed by John Smyth, in Amsterdam, c. 1607. Mr. Smyth baptized himself by infusion (pouring), and shortly thereafter returned to the Mennonites. Thomas Helwys led the little group of Baptists back to London, from where they came. The Immersion Baptists, which gave all future Baptists their primary issue of immersion only, were the third split (following the General and the Primitive), which occurred in 1644.

So, there are no Baptists who have any authority that was not self-given – then they give this imaginary authority to each other. The only Authority in Christianity is the Church founded by Christ for the salvation of the world, as found in the New Testament. This Church speaks for Christ (Luke 10:16).

When I was a Southern Baptist I attended an ordination. I asked myself where the one ordaining got the authority to ordain the other. I found through a study of the SBs that the one ordaining got it from someone, who got it from someone, who got it from someone (and so on), who gave it to himself. Only the Apostles had the authority to ordain. Every Catholic bishop has been ordained in an unbroken continuum back to the Apostles, and he has also ordained priests in Apostolic Succession.

Jim Dandy

 

[justnobody]

Jesus Himself personally appears at Second Baptist Church of East South Wherever and makes the decision to hire or fire a pastor? And these decisions are accepted by the congregation without them lifting a finger???

Yes or no, does virtually very Baptist church have a committe or congregational vote on hiring, firing, punishing, and rewarding pastors and deacons. Please answer yes or no.

And if you answered yes above, please show where this authority is in the Bible.

each baptist church is an indendent, democraticly run orginization such as were the churches in the New testament. An ordaination council is made up of pastors of other church of like faith (Baptist) such as they were in the new Testament

justnobody

 

[justnobody]

Every Catholic bishop has been ordained in an unbroken continuum back to the Apostles, and he has also ordained priests in Apostolic Succession.

Jim Dandy

Which means that there can only be twelve bishops world wide at any one given time and since there can be one successors at a time and not two, three or four there can only be twelve catholic priests at any one given time

justnobody

 

[onenow1]

Which means that there can only be twelve bishops world wide at any one given time and since there can be one successors at a time and not two, three or four there can only be twelve catholic priests at any one given time

justnobody

Hi, Jon, Wasn’t St.Paul the thirteenth Apostle ?

God Bless

 

[Rag_Hanger]

each baptist church is an indendent, democraticly run orginization such as were the churches in the New testament. An ordaination council is made up of pastors of other church of like faith (Baptist) such as they were in the new Testament

justnobody

“Independent”, yes. “Democratically”, sometimes, but fewer and fewer. Our church, for instance, is not run democratically, because we believe God chose to have men shepherd the church, not a majority vote

 

[William_Pitts]

That is correct. Baptism has no part in the salvation process after Christ (that is Biblical). Once saved, always saved that is correct. Where in the Holy Bible says you can lose salvation?

Take care and God Bless.

Ed

I beg to differ with most of your statements. OSAS is not biblical. Baptism is necessary for salvation. There plenty of statements in the Bible that say or indicate that one can begin on the road to salvation and can turn back.

Necessity of baptism Mar16:16; Joh3:5
Martin Luther recognized the importance of baptism. He said, " It (baptism) works the forgiveness of sins, delivers from death and the devil, and grants eternal salvation to all who believe this, as the word and promise of God declare" (Short Catechism 4:2).

"As Noah and his family were saved through water, so baptism, as the fulfillment of the Noachian type, ‘now saves you’ [1 Pet. 3:21].

Once saved always saved? Not a chance. Hebrews 6:4-6 seems pretty plain.

Heb 6:4-6 For it is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, since on their own they are crucifying again the Son of God and are holding him up to contempt.

There many other verses to back these up.

God bless you.

 

[Jim_Dandy]

Which means that there can only be twelve bishops world wide at any one given time and since there can be one successors at a time and not two, three or four there can only be twelve catholic priests at any one given time

justnobody

Twelve plus St. Paul is 13. Timothy and Titus were ordained bishops. Furthermore:

Acts 6:6 - They presented these men to the Apostles who prayed and laid hands on them [ordained them].

Eph 2:19-20 - . . . *household of God, built upon the foundation of the Apostles and the prophets *[the Church’s authority is not based on the Bible, but on the authority of God passed to and through the Church.]

1 Tim 3:1 - this saying is trustworthy: whoever aspires to the office of bishop desires a noble task [Note the OFFICE of bishop - an ongoing institution that is renewed from one generation to the next.]

Acts 14:23 - They [St. Paul and St. Barnabas] appointed presbyters [bishops/priests] for them in each church. No one ordains himself, nor does anyone presume to act as presbyter without first being ordained by someone in the Church that has the authority.

There are many more verses, but I think that’s sufficient to make the point.

There can be and are many bishops the world over. They are ordained as they are needed. The number of successors the Apostles can have is unlimited.

Jim Dandy

 

[pablope]

Twelve plus St. Paul is 13. Timothy and Titus were ordained bishops. Furthermore:

Acts 6:6 - They presented these men to the Apostles who prayed and laid hands on them [ordained them].

Eph 2:19-20 - . . . *household of God, built upon the foundation of the Apostles and the prophets *[the Church’s authority is not based on the Bible, but on the authority of God passed to and through the Church.]

1 Tim 3:1 - this saying is trustworthy: whoever aspires to the office of bishop desires a noble task [Note the OFFICE of bishop - an ongoing institution that is renewed from one generation to the next.]

Acts 14:23 - They [St. Paul and St. Barnabas] appointed presbyters [bishops/priests] for them in each church. No one ordains himself, nor does anyone presume to act as presbyter without first being ordained by someone in the Church that has the authority.

There are many more verses, but I think that’s sufficient to make the point.

There can be and are many bishops the world over. They are ordained as they are needed. The number of successors the Apostles can have is unlimited.

Jim Dandy

And please allow me to add…from Numbers 27:

18So the Lord said to Moses, “Take Joshua son of Nun, a man in whom is the spirit,a and lay your hand on him. 19Have him stand before Eleazar the priest and the entire assembly and commission him in their presence. 20Give him some of your authority so the whole Israelite community will obey him. 21He is to stand before Eleazar the priest, who will obtain decisions for him by inquiring of the Urim before the Lord. At his command he and the entire community of the Israelites will go out, and at his command they will come in.”

22Moses did as the Lord commanded him. He took Joshua and had him stand before Eleazar the priest and the whole assembly. 23Then he laid his hands on him and commissioned him, as the Lord instructed through Moses.

 

[zz912]

each baptist church is an indendent, democraticly run orginization such as were the churches in the New testament. An ordaination council is made up of pastors of other church of like faith (Baptist) such as they were in the new Testament

justnobody

I don’t think you could be more wrong. Each church was not independent nor democratic. Please cite examples. They were under the authority of the Apostles, bishops, priests and deacons. Multiple examples of ordaining priests and bishops in the NT. And most of Pauls letters were written on his authority as bishop and Apostle. He was writing to correct and order them to change their behavior.

 

[EzraJacob]

True, there is no authority in Baptist churches. My brother’s semi-Baptist church (Barearchia) actually teaches that you can have non-believer believers - those who had faith and lost it. They still go to Heaven. Even atheists!

Scary!

I remember going to a family members church once as a child. They told me that, and I had in my head that I could do what ever and be free of all punishment. lol I was a bad kid.