can you please explain what you mean by this distinction? And can you explain exactly how it applies to determining whether a particular society can be looked at for the standard of modest dress?
I am not sure what is unclear to you. A culture that valued modesty for a thousand years has a more refined set of values on how to be modest. A smaller culture within a large culture that is hostile to modesty and that has only less than 100 years of history is relatively inferior to the other cultures values.
As for what you should pick, it depends on how counter cultural you are willing to be. If you want the best possible, you will most likely have to pick values from an older culture. But that will alienate you from your current society and you might feel uncomfortable yourself. So it is up to you.
I think what you are confusing is that I want a blanket society where every individual is modest. That is incorrect. Rather, we speak of the attitude of a society as a whole. Most Christian societies and even some non-Christian societies of the past held modesty as an important element of their social values. Did some deviate? Of course. But that does not matter because the deviant values are shunned and eliminated very quickly in these societies.
The current Western society is a different beast. There is no modesty requirement and any deviant value set is allowed to thrive.
I am not simply speaking of a loose chain of individuals trying to be modest. Trust me, for the “bubble” I have in mind it is pretty easy to figure out who belongs to it and who does not.
Now you are being circular by trying to go from the details. As I said before, the bubble has to be a society. My question to you is how does this society achieve its bubble within this hostile larger society? What gives them the necessary isolation of thought to encourage, help and correct each other? If such a social structure does not exist, your bubble society probably does not exist either.
But this bubble has not broken from the past. And by that I mean, it was started by people who care deeply about modesty… is not merely 50-60 years old but is in fact merely a continuation of the past culture of modesty, no?
I don’t know. Because so far, you keep speaking about a bubble but give no indication as to where it exists, who founded it or anything else for that matter. All I see is just random claims that a bubble exist
Am I correct in saying that the above means that the society I have in mind does in fact fit your criteria?
As I said, I don’t know because there is no reason to even think such a bubble exist from the information you have given. But a hypothetical social structure, like a town filled with people who do strive to be modest as a whole while not discarding the values it had from before can indeed form a bubble and may have even progressed organically with refinement. But if this bubble is a dispersed community, then it most likely is not a bubble or even have a culture that it can call its own. It is more likely that each person in this society wants to be modest and has come up with what they think is the best way possible. That is obviously not what we are speaking about here.
This “bubble” is obviously not completely isolated from the outside world, but it very clearly has its own culture which is very clearly different from the culture of others around it, which cares deeply about modesty and chastity and has always done so with its care for modesty and chastity coming from the culture of the states before the sexual revolution. Is this sufficient for it to qualify as a “modest” community. As best as I can understand your above two criteria, it does, in fact qualify. Is there anything else I am missing?
As I said before, until more detail as to the location, the proximity of the individuals engaged in the culture and its founders are revealed, all I see is speculation and sweeping claims. It sounds more and more to me like a dispersed group of individuals who perhaps have enrolled in a “Modesty club”. As great as it is on its own and intent, it is not really a culture. It cannot grow organically as a whole because its members are far dispersed. There will most likely be no correction mechanisms involved either because none of the members will feel comfortable enough to correct each other due to the dispersed nature of the relationship. Even in the event that one is corrected, the other person might just choose to leave the society and form their own subculture.
This is why we usually consider society as a whole as more superior in the development of such values. In such large societies, those who try to deviate are forced to adapt because they cannot go outside and form another subculture by recruiting others. It is less likely that others exist with the same mindset or are willing to go against the social pressure. But in today’s Western world, your bubble will leak members and subcultures out in to society because there are enough confused members and lack of social pressure to conform to values.
Now I understand that this is a very complex topic that not only deals with modesty but on value propagation in general. I am only going in to this level of detail because you asked. If you want to understand this issue, you have to grow in your understanding of value of propagation and understand how a culture comes in to be. It may also prove important to learn the various teachings of the Church about the topic of culture and values.
