Spain's new cardinal says homosexuality a 'defect'

[JourneyForTruth]

“homosexuality is not a curable disease” is not a listed disease, it’s a behavior, a right, not skin color that a person can not change but actions that pursue pleasure. Like fishing, dispite being born for a strong desire we still must go to work and other things.

 

[Joie_de_Vivre]

“homosexuality is not a curable disease” is not a listed disease, it’s a behavior, a right, not skin color that a person can not change but actions that pursue pleasure. Like fishing, dispite being born for a strong desire we still must go to work and other things.

See, the funny thing is that the Church was discussing it being biological in nature during the papacy of Pope Pius XII then WWII got underway and it was shelved.

I think I’m going to wait until the full transcript is available in English before making reacting as context is vital.

 

[meltzerboy]

“homosexuality is not a curable disease” is not a listed disease, it’s a behavior, a right, not skin color that a person can not change but actions that pursue pleasure. Like fishing, dispite being born for a strong desire we still must go to work and other things.

If your work is that of a fisherman, you’ve got it made! However, fishing is not a desire shared by everyone (I know people who love fishing cannot possibly understand this), whereas sexuality is a drive that most people share. Still, I understand your analogy. One other question: what do you mean when you say a “right”?

 

[JourneyForTruth]

By a right I meant that homosexuals would claim it’s their right to pursue happiness however such a pursuit affects the mentoring of children. Therefore their right (if there is one) should not be allowed because it affects society. A nation is built on it’s home grown youth not immigrated for it takes a generation for assimilation to happen.

 

[Joie_de_Vivre]

By a right I meant that homosexuals would claim it’s their right to pursue happiness however such a pursuit affects the mentoring of children. Therefore their right (if there is one) should not be allowed because it affects society. A nation is built on it’s home grown youth not immigrated for it takes a generation for assimilation to happen.

The industrialization of the US was built on the back of immigrants.

 

[on_the_hill]

The industrialization of the US was built on the back of immigrants.

 

[jonathan_hili]

I agree. The homosexual lobby groups and celebrities have managed to convince the masses that you’re ‘born that way’, despite many doubts. Say anything different and you’re shouted down as a homophobe.

Hi Altms, I agree with you, but there’s no following of logic on this issue. Even if one concedes that people with a homosexual attraction are “born that way”, that doesn’t mean that such an attraction isn’t defective. Ditto if it’s genetic. I mean, there are so many genetic disorders that we still label as disorders.

I find it amusing - and somewhat bewildering - that many people who contend that homosexual attraction is natural and fine themselves tend to be naturalists or materialists. However, on their philosophy, how could such a thing be fine since it is evolutionary effete? Any organism with such a sexual attraction will not aid reproduction of the species and so is, by evolutionary and naturalistic standards, defective.

 

[ringil]

Without his going into detail, it is hard to tell what the Cardinal means. What kind of defect is he talking about: a genetic defect, a hormonal defect, a developmental defect (the Freudian view), a socioemotional defect, a sociocultural defect, a spiritual or moral defect, all or several of these? And can the defect differ for different people? The part about “correcting it” is also troublesome: how should this be done and can it be done, depending on what kind of defect it is?

I agree with your post- and especially the concern over his “correcting” remark.

He is, however, 84, so is likely not aware of our current understanding of homosexuality.

 

[ringil]

No, I do think that it can be treated as a mental illness and overcome. However, the person first has to acknowledge that he or she has a serious problem that needs to be addressed and corrected.

This is incorrect.

Homosexuality is not a mental illness and is not something which can be “changed” by mental health treatment.

No licensing bodies (Social Work, Marriage and Family Counseling, Psychology, Psychiatry) recognize efforts to change sexual orientation.

In fact, such efforts are seen as unethical and are grounds for disciplinary action- including loss of the practitioners license.

There are thousands of Catholic priest, sisters, and maybe a few Bishops licensed to provide mental health treatment and they would universally hold this view as well.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

He is, however, 84, so is likely not aware of our current understanding of homosexuality.

I don’t understand this type of comment about someone who is a cardinal. It seems disrespectful of the elderly and a man who is a cardinal in our Church. This man knows more than you or I about the theology of this subject. He has education on this matter that far surpasses our own, with the benefit of living at least twice as long as I have.

Not only that but he has been a minister. You can bet your sweet bippy he has talk to and counseled more homosexuals in the confessional than you or I will ever even know.

You may disagree with him. He may even be wrong. But lets not fall into the tired old complaint that the Church is run by old men who do not know of the real world. Francis, and his cardinals are specifically making these comments because they are probably more learned about the “real world” than we are. They are the ones “getting” out there. This is the change that Francis spoke of, this is getting out and ministering to people.

 

[ringil]

I don’t understand this type of comment about someone who is a cardinal. It seems disrespectful of the elderly and a man who is a cardinal in our Church. This man knows more than you or I about the theology of this subject. He has education on this matter that far surpasses our own, with the benefit of living at least twice as long as I have.

Not only that but he has been a minister. You can bet your sweet bippy he has talk to and counseled more homosexuals in the confessional than you or I will ever even know.

You may disagree with him. He may even be wrong. But lets not fall into the tired old complaint that the Church is run by old men who do not know of the real world. Francis, and his cardinals are specifically making these comments because they are probably more learned about the “real world” than we are. They are the ones “getting” out there. This is the change that Francis spoke of, this is getting out and ministering to people.

Francis has made no comment that homosexuality can be changed or corrected. This is not doctrine.

It is doctrine that homosexual activity is sinful and that homosexuality is a distortion of the natural law.

And certainly, this Cardinal does have vastly greater knowledge of the theology and spirituality of this issue. He however, does not- I gather- have a knowledge of the mental health treatment of homosexuals.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Francis has made no comment that homosexuality can be changed or corrected. This is not doctrine.

It is doctrine that homosexual activity is sinful and that homosexuality is a distortion of the natural law.

And certainly, this Cardinal does have vastly greater knowledge of the theology and spirituality of this issue. He however, does not- I gather- have a knowledge of the mental health treatment of homosexuals.

But that is not what you said. You specifically attacked his age. It was wrong. If it were me I would say sorry and move on.

I did not assert that pope Francis made any such comment. But he has commented on the issue quite extensively. And while one comment in particular was heralded by the press and gay organizations it seems the others are ignored.
In regards to your last statement. What do you base that on? Would not being a confessor for so long in itself make him a counselor about these issues. And seeing that many counselors his age are retired, he probably has MORE knowledge of the mental health treatment for homosexuals than most “experts”
But honestly, I don’t know if he has any, I have no proof. But neither do you have the ability to gather your statement.

 

[ringil]

But that is not what you said. You specifically attacked his age. It was wrong. If it were me I would say sorry and move on.

In regards to your last statement. What do you base that on? Would not being a confessor for so long in itself make him a counselor about these issues. And seeing that many counselors his age are retired, he probably has MORE knowledge of the mental health treatment for homosexuals than most “experts”
But honestly, I don’t know if he has any, I have no proof. But neither do you have the ability to gather your statement.

Confession has nothing to do with mental health treatment. It’s function is not to address psychiatric malady but to heal the soul of sin.

It is a Sacrament and an action of God through the priest.

Confession is divine. Mental health treatment is human in nature.

Added- I did not “attack” the Cardinals age- I mentioned it as a possible clue regarding his statement about “correcting” homosexuality.

 

[Brendan]

And certainly, this Cardinal does have vastly greater knowledge of the theology and spirituality of this issue. He however, does not- I gather- have a knowledge of the mental health treatment of homosexuals.

Mental health treatment is human in nature.

Where exactly in the article did the Cardinal state that the defect was in regards to mental health.

Can not moral defects be treated?

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Confession has nothing to due with mental health treatment. It’s function is not to address psychiatric malady but to heal the soul of sin.

It is a Sacrament and an action of God through the priest.

Confession is divine. Mental health treatment is human in nature.

Added- I did not “attack” the Cardinals age- I mentioned it as a possible clue regarding his statement about “correcting” homosexuality.

ok

 

[ringil]

Where exactly in the article did the Cardinal state that the defect was in regards to mental health.

Can not moral defects be treated?

In the sense that a person can refrain from homosexual activity, yes.

I guess, it would have been better- for me- to have heard him been more clear as to what he meant by “correcting” as this can be easily grasped by those committed to unethical, and dangerous mental health efforts- or what are stated to be mental health interventions.

 

[Tigg]

No, I do think that it can be treated as a mental illness and overcome. However, the person first has to acknowledge that he or she has a serious problem that needs to be addressed and corrected.

All the areas of our lives which touch upon our fallen nature would testify to this. Our life’s journey requires recognition of our true self made in the image of God, which of course, necessitates a thorough exploration of all the defects and sinful inclinations contrary to a holy life.

 

[silver2soul]

How can homosexuality be anything more than an influence of the enemy encamped? We have all kinds of immorality in the world and all are in opposition to GOD’s greater love for us. "Are we to believe that the enemy isn’t ROARING around us like a lion in order for us to become held captive and sedate us to greater wickedness…how much more or less is someone to believe that homosexuality isn’t clearly a design of the enemy when clearly we are told by scriptures that the very act is an abomination and wicked abnormality that GOD saw befitting to destroy SODOM and GOMORRAH due to it infestation.

We are witnessing an upraise of this kind of wickedness and it’s growth due to acceptance of from the blind and unbelievers, and how should we as brothers and sisters in JESUSS CHRIST respond? WIth love…now we all need to learn what the true definition of love is by GOD’S meaning of it.

How did lot respond to similar wickedness of Sodom and Gomorrah in the end?

Praise be to GOD the heavenly father and his son lord JESUS CHRIST forever>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

 

[Joie_de_Vivre]

Hi Altms, I agree with you, but there’s no following of logic on this issue. Even if one concedes that people with a homosexual attraction are “born that way”, that doesn’t mean that such an attraction isn’t defective. Ditto if it’s genetic. I mean, there are so many genetic disorders that we still label as disorders.

I find it amusing - and somewhat bewildering - that many people who contend that homosexual attraction is natural and fine themselves tend to be naturalists or materialists. However, on their philosophy, how could such a thing be fine since it is evolutionary effete? Any organism with such a sexual attraction will not aid reproduction of the species and so is, by evolutionary and naturalistic standards, defective.

Even if the etiology is biological in nature it can still be morally disordered.

Malthusians.

I don’t understand this type of comment about someone who is a cardinal. It seems disrespectful of the elderly and a man who is a cardinal in our Church. This man knows more than you or I about the theology of this subject. He has education on this matter that far surpasses our own, with the benefit of living at least twice as long as I have.

Not only that but he has been a minister. You can bet your sweet bippy he has talk to and counseled more homosexuals in the confessional than you or I will ever even know.

You may disagree with him. He may even be wrong. But lets not fall into the tired old complaint that the Church is run by old men who do not know of the real world. Francis, and his cardinals are specifically making these comments because they are probably more learned about the “real world” than we are. They are the ones “getting” out there. This is the change that Francis spoke of, this is getting out and ministering to people.

Old people do have a tendency to be less aware of modern science. The theology of this is not terribly complicated.

Giving advice in the confessional≠proper counseling

Francis has neither made negative comments regarding gay people nor has he suggested it is curable

Where exactly in the article did the Cardinal state that the defect was in regards to mental health.

Can not moral defects be treated?

We don’t have the full quote.

 

[MarcoPolo]

Has anyone ever heard a homosexual person insist that homosexuality is a “defect” of sorts on the grounds that they are admitting that their mind is at odds with their body?