M
mark_a
Guest
I don’t think the “my God is better than your god” approach works very well.
- Status
T
twf
Guest
Mark A: You are right in the sense that we must be respectful, but by the canons of ecumenical councils the Church has already condemned Islam as a religious belief (whether she has directly or not, I do not know…but any teaching contrary to what the Church has laid down has been condemned very strongly). We must be respectful, but we must also realize that heresy is damnable. (Yes, I realize that there is a possibility of salvation among those outsidet the visible bounds of the Church—but it is still the constant teaching of the Church that heresy is potentially damnable).
Regarding Islam, the stance of many Catholics bothers me as well. Sure there are many good Muslims…I have a Muslim friend myself. But the truth remains that there is a LOT of sexism in the Arab world. In Saudia Arabia, for example, which is one of the worst for this, women are not legally permitted to leave the house without a male escort, drive, nor sit in the front seat of a vehicle with a man who is not a close relative. Even here in Canada, when I use to live in Edmonton, there was one couple who must have been fairly fresh from Saudia Arabia (or a similar country). The wife was completely covered at all times (outside anyway) from head to toe, and always trailed her husband by several steps to show her submission. It is permitted among many Muslims to physically discipline their wives as well. The situation, from what I have read, is improving somewhat, at least in some countries (and it is not as bad in some as in others), but sexism is still a major problem in the Islamic world. I don’t know how we can preach that most Muslims are viritually Christian saints (I’m exaggerating for emphasis, by the way) with the prevalence of the oppression of women in many Islamic regions.
Don’t get me wrong…like I said, I have a Muslim friend myself. I am not anti-Muslim. I just want a bit a perspective here. Women are oppressed in many Islamic circles. This is a fact. Let’s not forget it.
Regarding Islam, the stance of many Catholics bothers me as well. Sure there are many good Muslims…I have a Muslim friend myself. But the truth remains that there is a LOT of sexism in the Arab world. In Saudia Arabia, for example, which is one of the worst for this, women are not legally permitted to leave the house without a male escort, drive, nor sit in the front seat of a vehicle with a man who is not a close relative. Even here in Canada, when I use to live in Edmonton, there was one couple who must have been fairly fresh from Saudia Arabia (or a similar country). The wife was completely covered at all times (outside anyway) from head to toe, and always trailed her husband by several steps to show her submission. It is permitted among many Muslims to physically discipline their wives as well. The situation, from what I have read, is improving somewhat, at least in some countries (and it is not as bad in some as in others), but sexism is still a major problem in the Islamic world. I don’t know how we can preach that most Muslims are viritually Christian saints (I’m exaggerating for emphasis, by the way) with the prevalence of the oppression of women in many Islamic regions.
Don’t get me wrong…like I said, I have a Muslim friend myself. I am not anti-Muslim. I just want a bit a perspective here. Women are oppressed in many Islamic circles. This is a fact. Let’s not forget it.
W
wolpertinger
Guest
So when can we expect you to open hostilities?
T
twf
Guest
Here are some articles on Islam that I found when I searched for “Islam” here at Catholic Answers:
catholic.com/thisrock/2003/0305clas.asp (written in 1936, so it certainly takes a different tone that a post-VII writer would)
catholic.com/library/endless_jihad.asp
catholic.com/thisrock/2002/0210bt.asp (Islam, Peace, and Violence)
Here are the rest of the results:
catholic.com/search.asp?searchType=file&target=Islam
I realize that most Muslims are not terrorists, but we must realize that the Qur’an itself advocates violence to some degree. It is not fair to say that Islam is, and always has been, a religion of peace. That is just modern political correctness. Regarding pagans, it says:
“slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them” (Q 9:5). Greater respect is called for regarding Christians and Jews, fortuantly.
catholic.com/thisrock/2003/0305clas.asp (written in 1936, so it certainly takes a different tone that a post-VII writer would)
catholic.com/library/endless_jihad.asp
catholic.com/thisrock/2002/0210bt.asp (Islam, Peace, and Violence)
Here are the rest of the results:
catholic.com/search.asp?searchType=file&target=Islam
I realize that most Muslims are not terrorists, but we must realize that the Qur’an itself advocates violence to some degree. It is not fair to say that Islam is, and always has been, a religion of peace. That is just modern political correctness. Regarding pagans, it says:
“slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them” (Q 9:5). Greater respect is called for regarding Christians and Jews, fortuantly.
E
emmy_from_texas
Guest
TWF:
I have seen that the status of women in Islam is very much misunderstood by the western world. Yes, different cultures let certain conditioning take precedence over Islam, but that is not Islam, and that is not educated Muslims. Islam actually gave women their rights when they had none. You are saying that women are not allowed to ride in the passenger seat of a car with a man, unless the driver is a relative, as if it is a bad thing, but this shows that you don’t understand the wisdom behind it, and one of the most basic cocepts of Islam – purity. It is not that a woman cannot mix closely with unrelated men, as much as it is that a man cannot mix closely with an unrelated women. This is for the protection of the woman. Islam forbids mixing, to prevent the many evils that can come with it, and Saudi Arabia is one of the only contries that actually tries to instill this as law, but it is just very misunderstood. A man cannot be alone with a woman that is not his family. This beautiful purity used to be present in other religions until the world became too secular and wiped all purity and modesty away.
As far as physical punishment goes, Islam doesn’t say that a man can beat his wife. A man touching his wife in admonition can only be the extent of using his finger, never touching her face, and only under extreme circumstances would a religious man ever even do that. For example, his wife spending time with another man and he comfronts her with it only to have her tell him she doesn’t care, and he taps her with his pointer finger while telling her she is doing wrong, this is permissible in Islam. The men that physically hurt their wives, and even touch their faces, are sinning. It is just as fair to call this Islam as it is to call it Christianity. The statistics of husbands and boyfriends abusing their partner is far greater than those in Saudi Arabia, where you have more stern heavy fisted Muslims more than any other Muslim country.
As far as a women walking behind her husband…This is not Islam AT ALL. If a man does enforce it, he has some other issues going on. I watch Lifetime television sometimes, and America has its share of men that think women are only there to serve him. Latin America is even worse. My father is Hispanic, and I hear the stories. I remember when my Mexican cousin came to visit us (a male), and he would not play soccer with me and my brother in the backyard because women “should not be allowed to do these things” and he would only play with my brother even though I played for 15 years! Anyway, I don’t know why Islam seems to be judged so easily as oppressive by an action they see a Muslim do, that they may not even understand, but if any non-Muslim does it, it is just a fault of the individual and their religion would never be mentioned. Don’t you notice that?
Islam liberated women, and their is a wisdom behind every ruling. Women have to cover their hair in modesty because hair of a women is an adornment. Just look at the difference a hair style makes on a woman, and the amount of money spent on hair products in this country. As the Qur’an says, covering is so women can be recognized, but not bothered. This is so true. Ever since I have started covering, I don’t get hassled by men like I used to. Muslim men on the other hand, are supposed to have a beard, in humbleness and modesty, which is equally hard for many men as it is for women to wear a scarf. They also have to wear loose clothing to not show off their bodies, and wear pants that fall atleast below the knee.
I am just asking you to not assume something is oppression against women just because you don’t understand it, or because you are p(name removed by moderator)ointed an action of an individual that is not following the teaching of Islam. Yes, some cultures, including non-Islamic ones, have some illogical junk in them that some may follow, but others don’t.
Thanks for reading…
I have seen that the status of women in Islam is very much misunderstood by the western world. Yes, different cultures let certain conditioning take precedence over Islam, but that is not Islam, and that is not educated Muslims. Islam actually gave women their rights when they had none. You are saying that women are not allowed to ride in the passenger seat of a car with a man, unless the driver is a relative, as if it is a bad thing, but this shows that you don’t understand the wisdom behind it, and one of the most basic cocepts of Islam – purity. It is not that a woman cannot mix closely with unrelated men, as much as it is that a man cannot mix closely with an unrelated women. This is for the protection of the woman. Islam forbids mixing, to prevent the many evils that can come with it, and Saudi Arabia is one of the only contries that actually tries to instill this as law, but it is just very misunderstood. A man cannot be alone with a woman that is not his family. This beautiful purity used to be present in other religions until the world became too secular and wiped all purity and modesty away.
As far as physical punishment goes, Islam doesn’t say that a man can beat his wife. A man touching his wife in admonition can only be the extent of using his finger, never touching her face, and only under extreme circumstances would a religious man ever even do that. For example, his wife spending time with another man and he comfronts her with it only to have her tell him she doesn’t care, and he taps her with his pointer finger while telling her she is doing wrong, this is permissible in Islam. The men that physically hurt their wives, and even touch their faces, are sinning. It is just as fair to call this Islam as it is to call it Christianity. The statistics of husbands and boyfriends abusing their partner is far greater than those in Saudi Arabia, where you have more stern heavy fisted Muslims more than any other Muslim country.
As far as a women walking behind her husband…This is not Islam AT ALL. If a man does enforce it, he has some other issues going on. I watch Lifetime television sometimes, and America has its share of men that think women are only there to serve him. Latin America is even worse. My father is Hispanic, and I hear the stories. I remember when my Mexican cousin came to visit us (a male), and he would not play soccer with me and my brother in the backyard because women “should not be allowed to do these things” and he would only play with my brother even though I played for 15 years! Anyway, I don’t know why Islam seems to be judged so easily as oppressive by an action they see a Muslim do, that they may not even understand, but if any non-Muslim does it, it is just a fault of the individual and their religion would never be mentioned. Don’t you notice that?
Islam liberated women, and their is a wisdom behind every ruling. Women have to cover their hair in modesty because hair of a women is an adornment. Just look at the difference a hair style makes on a woman, and the amount of money spent on hair products in this country. As the Qur’an says, covering is so women can be recognized, but not bothered. This is so true. Ever since I have started covering, I don’t get hassled by men like I used to. Muslim men on the other hand, are supposed to have a beard, in humbleness and modesty, which is equally hard for many men as it is for women to wear a scarf. They also have to wear loose clothing to not show off their bodies, and wear pants that fall atleast below the knee.
I am just asking you to not assume something is oppression against women just because you don’t understand it, or because you are p(name removed by moderator)ointed an action of an individual that is not following the teaching of Islam. Yes, some cultures, including non-Islamic ones, have some illogical junk in them that some may follow, but others don’t.
Thanks for reading…
Y
yallguys
Guest
As far as I understand, Islam is a heresy that turned into a religion. Heresies usually die out, but Islam has always had armies. Many of Mohammad’s ideas on God are simply half truths taken directly from Christian theology. He did teach that Jesus would be the one coming to judge at the end of time, and he gave more respect to Mary than many Christians do today. I enjoyed the chapter on Islam by Hilaire Belloc in The Great Heresies as a starting place.
J
JamesS
Guest
Emmy what is your stance on Israel and the Jews?
S
StubbleSpark
Guest
A lot of what Emmy and others on this thread say makes sense to me. The beauty of Islam is that it is in fact a very logical religion. After arguing with co-workers on whether or not things like objective truth and reality itself actually exist, I find it much easier to get along with those who come from the older Abrahamic faiths (or Buddhism) than it is to get along with many of your typical “Christians” today.
The undeniable foundation of Protestantism is relativism. Luther changed to Sola Scriptura and then changed that scripture. The result? Constant division as the faith undergoes a continual stripping down of all its fullness until you are left with thinly disguised Deism (or agnosticism) based on revisionist history. The result is inevitable given the primary selfish motives of breaking with Holy Mother Church.
I think the reason Islam has not totally disintegrated in these intervening centuries may be because their concept of truth as unified and whole. This may be why Muslims misunderstand the Holy Trinity as polytheism that divides the One God into parts. If this is the case, we can see that they indeed have a wonderful gift in their concept of truth (but alas, not in their concept of the Triune God). In many respects, their understanding of God is lightyears beyond your typical Protestant view.
Still, if I were to offer an equally fair criticism it would be that they lack what all other religions but ours (except maybe Tibetan Buddhism) lack: a pope. Their only unifying (and thus, guiding) force is fundamentalism. In this respect, they are very similar to Protestants. Go into a devout Protestant’s home and you may see things like a framed picture of the Bible on an American flag. Muslims keep gilded images of the Qu’ran enshrined on their shelves. For both, the book is the thing.
As Catholics, we all know the inherent problem with that. Factionalism rises and cultural and temporal influences start playing an undue role. How do you tell the Muslim husband that it is not right to pour acid on an ungrateful wife? I doubt once his mind is made up, even a demonstration of your superior Arabic will work.
It is great to do extra things to condition yourself spritually or protect your sanctity. Give up coffee like a Mormon. Avoid contact with the opposite sex like a Muslim. As Catholics, both of these are a traditional part of how we express love to God (eg, lent, celibacy and cloistered orders). The problem comes when you try to enforce them as compulsory to your faith. They are not sins (unless you made a vow to God to abstain from these things.) I can no more go to Hell for being a coffee achiever than I can for sharing a bus seat with a strange woman.
When we stand against something like abortion or fornication, it is because we know these to be sins. But we cannot force women to hide in their homes just to protect men from sinful thoughts because it offers undue favor to men at the expense of the rights of women. If a society can agree on soemthing like this great. If they cannot, also great.
Over the centuries, different groups have criticized the Church for being too soft or too rigid. I wonder if any group has ever criticized Islam for being too soft. My opinion is that it is on the extreme rigid side and no one ever said Islam is soft. Though I may be wrong. Again, we see that their faith lacks a fundamental universality in that it favors the rigid (a masculine quality) at the expense of the gentle (a feminine quality) expressed in powerful spiritual leaders like St. Francis of Assisi.
Also, Muslims will not call God “Father” but we can by our baptism.
The undeniable foundation of Protestantism is relativism. Luther changed to Sola Scriptura and then changed that scripture. The result? Constant division as the faith undergoes a continual stripping down of all its fullness until you are left with thinly disguised Deism (or agnosticism) based on revisionist history. The result is inevitable given the primary selfish motives of breaking with Holy Mother Church.
I think the reason Islam has not totally disintegrated in these intervening centuries may be because their concept of truth as unified and whole. This may be why Muslims misunderstand the Holy Trinity as polytheism that divides the One God into parts. If this is the case, we can see that they indeed have a wonderful gift in their concept of truth (but alas, not in their concept of the Triune God). In many respects, their understanding of God is lightyears beyond your typical Protestant view.
Still, if I were to offer an equally fair criticism it would be that they lack what all other religions but ours (except maybe Tibetan Buddhism) lack: a pope. Their only unifying (and thus, guiding) force is fundamentalism. In this respect, they are very similar to Protestants. Go into a devout Protestant’s home and you may see things like a framed picture of the Bible on an American flag. Muslims keep gilded images of the Qu’ran enshrined on their shelves. For both, the book is the thing.
As Catholics, we all know the inherent problem with that. Factionalism rises and cultural and temporal influences start playing an undue role. How do you tell the Muslim husband that it is not right to pour acid on an ungrateful wife? I doubt once his mind is made up, even a demonstration of your superior Arabic will work.
It is great to do extra things to condition yourself spritually or protect your sanctity. Give up coffee like a Mormon. Avoid contact with the opposite sex like a Muslim. As Catholics, both of these are a traditional part of how we express love to God (eg, lent, celibacy and cloistered orders). The problem comes when you try to enforce them as compulsory to your faith. They are not sins (unless you made a vow to God to abstain from these things.) I can no more go to Hell for being a coffee achiever than I can for sharing a bus seat with a strange woman.
When we stand against something like abortion or fornication, it is because we know these to be sins. But we cannot force women to hide in their homes just to protect men from sinful thoughts because it offers undue favor to men at the expense of the rights of women. If a society can agree on soemthing like this great. If they cannot, also great.
Over the centuries, different groups have criticized the Church for being too soft or too rigid. I wonder if any group has ever criticized Islam for being too soft. My opinion is that it is on the extreme rigid side and no one ever said Islam is soft. Though I may be wrong. Again, we see that their faith lacks a fundamental universality in that it favors the rigid (a masculine quality) at the expense of the gentle (a feminine quality) expressed in powerful spiritual leaders like St. Francis of Assisi.
Also, Muslims will not call God “Father” but we can by our baptism.
M
mark_a
Guest
Thanks for the thoughtful response.
twf:
twf:
twf:
twf:
Agreed. Islamic beliefs are probably similar. Remember too, that we as Catholics are viewed similarly by some radical fellow Christians right here in our own country.
Until 9/11 most of us (especially Americans) were probably just ignorant or oblivious.
Agreed. I caught the PBS show about oppression of Afghan women, especially under the Taliban. Their lives are still hell. But some of this was their culture even before Islam and we can’t change a minimum of 1400 years of culture with condemnation of the entire culture. I haven’t seen a mass conversion to Christianity by Muslim women because it’s their culture too.
Agreed. It’s probably not a stretch to say women are oppressed in most Islamic circles.
F
flick427
Guest
Ya, I know we chouldn’t act like idiots about it, but we can talk to them as rational human beings. Arabs are people…humans just as beautiful as every other human. But that is why it bothers me that so many people are muslim…Everyone in the church knows that it is a heresy but you do not win converts by walking up to a muslim and calling him satan. If I walked up to a muslim and said, “repent of your ways or burn in Hell” %between%I probably wouldn’t be giving a good view of Christianity.
Why, because that is our job, to help bring the truth to people through our words and deeds.
Maybe I’d just like to see the church promote helping them change more…ya know???
J
Joanna
Guest
Paul tried talking his way through:
"I see that in every respect you are very religious. For as I walked around looking carefully at your shrines, I even discovered an altar inscribed, ‘To an Unknown God.’ What therefore you unknowingly worship, I proclaim to you." Acts 17:23
However, this lacked the persuasive power of the Spirit:
**“We should like to hear you on this some other time.” Acts 17:32 **(Only a few responded.)
Somewhere along the Way, Paul determined: **“that while I was with you I would speak of nothing but Jesus Christ and Him crucified.” **
Paul knew about multiculturalism when he said:
"When I came to you, brothers, proclaiming the mystery of God, I did not come with sublimity of words or of wisdom. For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ, and him crucified. I came to you in weakness and fear and much trembling, and my message and my proclamation were not with persuasive (words of) wisdom, but with a demonstration of spirit and power, so that your faith might rest not on human wisdom but on the power of God.
**Yet we do speak a wisdom to those who are mature, but not a wisdom of this age, nor of the rulers of this age who are passing away. Rather, we speak God’s wisdom, mysterious, hidden, which God predetermined before the ages for our glory, **
**and which none of the rulers of this age knew; for if they had known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. But as it is written:****“What eye has not seen, and ear has not heard, and what has not entered the human heart, what God has prepared for those who love him.” **Yet this God has revealed to us through the Spirit.1 Corinthians 2: 1-9
I think Paul has something to say to the Church and to Islam, even if no one is listening. Paul wasn’t especially politically correct and did upset many fellow christians who at times left him to go it alone.
T
twf
Guest
Emmy: Thanks for your thoughts. I understand some of the points you made, and in light of your arguments, I do see virtue in some of those stipulations; however, despite what you have said, it remains true that sexism does exist in the Islamic world. I admitted that this is not true of all Muslims, nor in all Muslim countries, in my original post (or at least I hope I did). Perhaps Afghanistan under the Taliban is a better example. Let me give you one example. A woman was seen driving in a taxi (in the front seat no less), and as she did, her sleave fell down. The mob stoned her soon after. Let’s not forget honour killings…sure they are not as common today as in the past, but roughly 20 still take place a year in Jordan, for example. (This stat based on a magazine article I read a while a go, on how women rights are slowly improving in the Islamic world). I said above that see merit in your arguments defending the situation of women in Saudia Arabia, but I still disagree with the laws. It negates personal freedom…and even if in theory men and women both have restrictions, the fact of the matter is that women get the brunt of it. My aunt lived in Saudia Arabia…she certainly did not appreciate the religious police. (She once saw them taking a woman aside, because she was roller skating—thus breaking the stipulation that women shall not be on ‘wheels’).
In the case of Saudia Arabia, how do you justify the law that prevents women from driving? Or until VERY recently, the law that prevented women from obtaining a commerce license? Or until the 1960s, the laws that prevented girls from going to school?
In the situation in which the wife trails her husband by several steps, I do not believe that this is unique. I didn’t say it is ‘a part of Islam’. I know that is not the case. (My friend Mohammed’s parents walk side by side, as far as I know). But certain cultures within the Islamic do expect this, it would seem.
Morocco is an example of a Muslim country in which women rights have been substantially improved. For one, polygamy has been forbidden. (That is another point, the very idea of polygamy is sexist…and I hope you agree, for Holy Mother Church certainly condemns the practice as mortal sin ).
I am aware that Islam improved the status of women, those women that came out of paganism. I wasn’t comparing the status of women before and after Islam. My concern was the status of women at various times in certain Islamic nations. Muslims also venerate Mary, Hagar, and others…and I am told that many Muslims trace their ancestry through the maternal line.
In Christ,
Tyler
In the case of Saudia Arabia, how do you justify the law that prevents women from driving? Or until VERY recently, the law that prevented women from obtaining a commerce license? Or until the 1960s, the laws that prevented girls from going to school?
In the situation in which the wife trails her husband by several steps, I do not believe that this is unique. I didn’t say it is ‘a part of Islam’. I know that is not the case. (My friend Mohammed’s parents walk side by side, as far as I know). But certain cultures within the Islamic do expect this, it would seem.
Morocco is an example of a Muslim country in which women rights have been substantially improved. For one, polygamy has been forbidden. (That is another point, the very idea of polygamy is sexist…and I hope you agree, for Holy Mother Church certainly condemns the practice as mortal sin
).I am aware that Islam improved the status of women, those women that came out of paganism. I wasn’t comparing the status of women before and after Islam. My concern was the status of women at various times in certain Islamic nations. Muslims also venerate Mary, Hagar, and others…and I am told that many Muslims trace their ancestry through the maternal line.
In Christ,
Tyler
F
FightingFat
Guest
I have quite a few Muslim friends for whom I thank God. I much prefer talking to them about God than other Christians as they are much more open minded and less acerbic in their criticism.
I have found great joy in talking to them about my faith and listening to the stories of their faith. It has created an environment in which I have been able to demonstrate my understanding of Islam and dispell many myths they have held about Christianity, many of which I found incredible; far fetched and in some instances, quite amusing. Our mutual respect has grown a great deal.
I am honest about my belief but would consider it rude and conceited to tell them they are wrong or sinning. Better a mutual exchange of wisdom. We are each on a journey, the truth has to be accepted as well as heard. I do better service to my faith by being a friend to my Muslim brothers and someone about whom they say-
‘I have a Christian friend and he’s a really nice guy’.
I have found great joy in talking to them about my faith and listening to the stories of their faith. It has created an environment in which I have been able to demonstrate my understanding of Islam and dispell many myths they have held about Christianity, many of which I found incredible; far fetched and in some instances, quite amusing. Our mutual respect has grown a great deal.
I am honest about my belief but would consider it rude and conceited to tell them they are wrong or sinning. Better a mutual exchange of wisdom. We are each on a journey, the truth has to be accepted as well as heard. I do better service to my faith by being a friend to my Muslim brothers and someone about whom they say-
‘I have a Christian friend and he’s a really nice guy’.
J
Joanna
Guest
Sounds like evangelization is still the order of the day. Westerns and Muslims sorely need to meet the Gospel in person (St. Francis of Assisi’s, “Preach always. Sometimes use words.”) No one minds being loved and respected. I would imagine a genuine apostle gets noticed but not for drawing attention to his rhetoric; something like being a light in the darkness.
I would image that means even christians need to be continually converted. So, once again, we start with knowing ourselves and our need to know Christ. We can’t get away from the Cross and the fact that we must allow it to crucifiy our flesh in daily life before we can expect someone else to pick up his cross and follow after Christ crucified.
P
puzzleannie
Guest
it is the Catholic church, through its missionaries and priests active in the southern Sudan, which is primarily Christian or animist, that brought to public attention the criminal abuses allowed and perpetreated by the Islamic Khartoum government. It is the Catholic church through its representatives that continues to keep this problem in the public eye at the UN and elsewhere. Since the Catholic church does not have political and military power, better ask what are those who do have this power doing about the crisis?
E
emmy_from_texas
Guest
Dear Tyler,
Thank you for your post. I wish that others could give their opinions in the way that you do. The thread “Muslims” has taken what little free time I have, so I apologize for not responding sooner. I don’t see myself coming back here for too much longer because I am not welcomed, which is understandable.
I COMPLETELY understand your views. Sexism definitely exists in the Islamic world as it does here at home. They are often expressed in different ways, depending on how the generation was raised and what they were exposed to. I heard about the women in Afghanistan a long time ago. I remember signing an online Petition against the Taliban before I was Muslim!
I can see how a Christian would not enjoy living in Saudi Arabia at all if you don’t believe in the Shariah as the way to live. Then, there is a government that uses the Shariah as an excuse to impose laws when they are not even practicing Shariah law themselves! It is forbidden for a Muslim country to have a dictatorship or a king, yet look at the majority of Muslim countries. They seem to pick and choose which Islamic teachings they want to expand on and which to ignore. There was a time in history when pure Islamic shariah was applied to a civilization, and the life was good and just. You think that the law negates personal freedom, but it really is about perception. The Muslim women there are happy. They feel protected and safe. A religious Muslim would want personal freedom limited if it would make the society as a whole a better place. I know that it would be hard to see this as a Christian, and I admit that some laws are made without enough Islamic backing to support it.
The initial reason the law against women driving was instilled was actually a noble one, many years ago. There came a time when the way of life was becoming too lenient, and the men and women would be mixing in the market places together, where people would spend alot of time on a regular basis. Soon, the mixing turned to unlawful relationships, even among those that were married. Saudi Arabia did not want what you see here in the west, where there are no boundaries. They decided to make a law that the men would be the ones to go to the market places and get everything that was needed and the trial would be solved. I have a feeling though, that many Christians would say, “Why do they let the man do this, why couldn’t they let the women do it?”. But if it were the other way aroung, many Christians would say, “Why do they force the women to take care of things and do all the work while the men get to stay at home?” Personally, I would love to live there and be able to relax and have the men take care of everything while I focus on my children. I have only visited, but I quickly learned that the way of life also depends on where you live in Saudi Arabia.
You were mentioning that womens right are slowly improving. This is the cast all over the world. Even in America, the land of the free, women have only recently been getting their rights, and we still are not all the way there. There are still many American men who only regard their “woman” as “their property” and that is it. Women have endured injustice all over the world, although you may think that America has progressed faster than the rest of the world in this area, I still feel like more justice is done toward women in Islamic nations in general. I don’t feel like an object there as I am here. The way women have become such sex objects here sickens me. I guess it is all in perception. No nation is perfect, and no country represents its religion well, or even close to it.
I have a reply to your post about Morocco and polygamy, but I will have to do it later God willing. It is a very interesting subject and I think you might be interested in a female Muslim’s view on it!
Thanks,
Emily
Thank you for your post. I wish that others could give their opinions in the way that you do. The thread “Muslims” has taken what little free time I have, so I apologize for not responding sooner. I don’t see myself coming back here for too much longer because I am not welcomed, which is understandable.
I COMPLETELY understand your views. Sexism definitely exists in the Islamic world as it does here at home. They are often expressed in different ways, depending on how the generation was raised and what they were exposed to. I heard about the women in Afghanistan a long time ago. I remember signing an online Petition against the Taliban before I was Muslim!
I can see how a Christian would not enjoy living in Saudi Arabia at all if you don’t believe in the Shariah as the way to live. Then, there is a government that uses the Shariah as an excuse to impose laws when they are not even practicing Shariah law themselves! It is forbidden for a Muslim country to have a dictatorship or a king, yet look at the majority of Muslim countries. They seem to pick and choose which Islamic teachings they want to expand on and which to ignore. There was a time in history when pure Islamic shariah was applied to a civilization, and the life was good and just. You think that the law negates personal freedom, but it really is about perception. The Muslim women there are happy. They feel protected and safe. A religious Muslim would want personal freedom limited if it would make the society as a whole a better place. I know that it would be hard to see this as a Christian, and I admit that some laws are made without enough Islamic backing to support it.
The initial reason the law against women driving was instilled was actually a noble one, many years ago. There came a time when the way of life was becoming too lenient, and the men and women would be mixing in the market places together, where people would spend alot of time on a regular basis. Soon, the mixing turned to unlawful relationships, even among those that were married. Saudi Arabia did not want what you see here in the west, where there are no boundaries. They decided to make a law that the men would be the ones to go to the market places and get everything that was needed and the trial would be solved. I have a feeling though, that many Christians would say, “Why do they let the man do this, why couldn’t they let the women do it?”. But if it were the other way aroung, many Christians would say, “Why do they force the women to take care of things and do all the work while the men get to stay at home?” Personally, I would love to live there and be able to relax and have the men take care of everything while I focus on my children. I have only visited, but I quickly learned that the way of life also depends on where you live in Saudi Arabia.
You were mentioning that womens right are slowly improving. This is the cast all over the world. Even in America, the land of the free, women have only recently been getting their rights, and we still are not all the way there. There are still many American men who only regard their “woman” as “their property” and that is it. Women have endured injustice all over the world, although you may think that America has progressed faster than the rest of the world in this area, I still feel like more justice is done toward women in Islamic nations in general. I don’t feel like an object there as I am here. The way women have become such sex objects here sickens me. I guess it is all in perception. No nation is perfect, and no country represents its religion well, or even close to it.
I have a reply to your post about Morocco and polygamy, but I will have to do it later God willing. It is a very interesting subject and I think you might be interested in a female Muslim’s view on it!
Thanks,
Emily
F
Franze
Guest
The women in islam is getting better for the quran or for the Western,Emmy? for example the dicatorship in Tunis, is the unique country with Turkey that the poligamy isn´t allowed and the Quran and the Hadiths allowed for having rich man in islam
Greetings
Greetings
E
Exporter
Guest
If you could go into orbit with a powerful telescope and the ability to read whats in men’s hearts: then record all that you learned while circling the earth what would you have learned.
What did you see in Muslim countries as opposed to Christian countries. What about the hospitals, orphanges, treatment of the poor in Muslim nations vs the Christian nations?
What has Islam produced? Why don’t they have great Universities? Why are the majority of Muslims illiterate? What has Islam produced?
What did you see in Muslim countries as opposed to Christian countries. What about the hospitals, orphanges, treatment of the poor in Muslim nations vs the Christian nations?
What has Islam produced? Why don’t they have great Universities? Why are the majority of Muslims illiterate? What has Islam produced?
V
Voice_Of_Reason
Guest
Exporter, they’re too busy either
- Cutting other people’s heads off that don’t belong to their lifestyle
- Cutting the heads of dissenters within their ‘community’
V
vstar
Guest
Well now let’s have a look ar history. Atrocities…hmmm the Huns, the Mongols, the Romans, Greeks, Nazis, Communists and so on. It seems to me that the atrocities committed by the believers pales in comparison to those guys. Mind you believers (Catholics) do have a conscience and will examine it (mea culpa) whereas the aforementioned cannot examine it 'cause they don’t have one. Can you imagine a Nazi or a Communist admitting that he(or she of course) has sinned?! Je pense que non!
Frank Szabo
Ottawa, Ontario
Canada
- Status