Speaking in tongues: genuine charism or silly gibberish?

[Sabda]

From the Catholic Catechism Paragraph 2003:

“Grace is first and foremost the gift of the Spirit who justifies and sanctifies us. But grace also includes the gifts that the Spirit grants us to associate us with his work, to enable us to collaborate in the salvation of others and in the growth of the Body of Christ, the Church. There are sacramental graces, gifts proper to the different sacraments. There are furthermore special graces, also called charisms after the Greek term used by St. Paul and meaning “favor,” “gratuitous gift,” “benefit.” **Whatever their character - sometimes it is extraordinary, such as the gift of miracles or of tongues **- charisms are oriented toward sanctifying grace and are intended for the common good of the Church. They are at the service of charity which builds up the Church.”

Interestingly enough the charism of tongues is likened with the charism of miracles. Now as we know the Church has put very strict guidelines in being able to differentiate between false miracles and true miracles. True miracles are also quite rare. Most people are not gifted with miracles. Miracles, of course, being supernatural. Speaking in a language that you never learned is not normal. That puts speaking in tongues in the realm of miracles. Now if true miracles are rare than it stands to reason that speaking in tongues is also rare. We see that though out history speaking in tongues was rare. Now all of a sudden it becomes a wide-spread phenomena? That has warning bells going off in my head.

While I DO believe in the gift of tongues I do not believe that every Tom and Jane who claims to have it actually does. I believe, that like most miracles, authentic tongues are not very common. Now I will not go so far as to be able to know who does and does not have this gift. That is for holy Mother Church to decide. I do know that if I was ever gifted with this I would be making an immediate appt with my priest to help me discern whether or not this was of God or an illusion of Satan. After all in the Old Testament we do find that Satan can manipulate tongues (1 Kings 22:22-23).

 

[jcrichton]

What confuses me is in the passage below all those people were able to understand what was being said.

Acts 2.6
Quote:
And when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded in mind, because that every man heard them speak in his own tongue. 7 And they were all amazed, and wondered, saying: Behold, are not all these, that speak, Galileans? 8 And how have we heard, every man our own tongue wherein we were born? 9 Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and inhabitants of Mesopotamia, Judea, and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, 10 Phrygia, and Pamphylia, Egypt, and the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome,

Hi, hawkeye! (…is that as in M.A.S.H?)

What I find interesting with this passage is that there were so many different languages amongst the listeners… yet they each heard the Apostles speak in their own language; since we do not know exactly what happened, could it not have been that the Holy Spirit allowed all to hear in their own languages rather than all of the Apostles (and those with them) speaking simultaneously in multiple languages?

In either case, this example is not of people speaking in tongues (undiscernable languages) but of people speaking in various languages.

Still, I agree with your accessment since Paul actually breaks down the manner in which we should behave in the Church in order to maintain order–he even clarifies that Yahweh God is not a God of chaos but order!

…ever witness those services where people start to sing and dance and jump and scream and drop as if dead once touched by one of the ministers/assistants or those where people are “healed” form various infirmities? …some of it could truly be authentic… some of it do seem to be very suspect… still, some of it might actually be fabricated.

What I understood at a prayer meeting was nothing, and again why would we need to speak in tongues if each one attending understood the language… anyone ?

Plus there doesn’t seem to be an interpreter, unless all present were filled with the Holy Spirit.

And it doesn’t bother me that much anyway, Saint Paul says charity is better than all of them.

Corinth: 13:1
Quote:
Charity never falleth away: whether prophecies shall be made void, or tongues shall cease, or knowledge shall be destroyed.

…sadly, charity places a greater demand on us and is less flashy…

I have nothing against animals, but have you noticed the insanity… people treating animals with more compassion than human beings? …having an extemely suspect relationship with these animals to the point that other members of the family are of lower rank than the animals? …allowing the animals to come between parent and child and husband and wife? …people catering to several animals, yet not having enough love and compassion to adopt an orphaned child or two?

I don’t think that they can reason… they are just following a trend that developed from the remake of the remake… of Lassie or is it Lasie?

So it is not surprising that people would jump for joy to demonstrate their spiritual growth through a visible sign, specially when more and more people join in…

We must pray that the Holy Spirit guide the Church (all of her members) into the Truth.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[DJgang]

Well if it was important God would have seen that we all could do this

It’s not necessary for salvation, so it’s no big deal to me…I am content to let those that want to do it, have their way

It’s something I wouldn’t want…it is too far out for me, and I don’t chose to watch other people making a scene by doing it either

Why are you even involved in this thread…I sense so much negativity from you. I am sorry.

The following is my opinion…

Everyone could do this , that is receive a gift from the Holy Spirit. It does take openness to the Holy Spirit and basically, dying to self, allowing the Holy Spirit to be in control.

No one here, or even the Church has ever said that it was necessary for Salvation.

And if people are faking the gift of tongues, if people are making a scene and being deceptive about the gift, leave that up to God to be the judge. I equate it with this…people who come to the Church for help, like to the St. Vincent dePaul Society. If they are being deceitful, they are sinning against God, likewise to those who are faking the gift of tongues, and likewise to those who think this gift is impossible.

 

[redrosetea]

I’m involved in this thread becaue I choose to be, just the same as you

Just because you don’t like my postitoon on this doesn’t mean it doesn’t have merit…I think most of it is just theatrics, by people who want attention

I didn’t realize this board was just for people that agreed with everything that others did and thought

 

[DJgang]

I’m involved in this thread becaue I choose to be, just the same as you

Just because you don’t like my postitoon on this doesn’t mean it doesn’t have merit…I think most of it is just theatrics, by people who want attention

I didn’t realize this board was just for people that agreed with everything that others did and thought

I didn’t say that at all.

 

[redrosetea]

Well I have never had anyone here ask my why I was on a thread.?..I think you just don’t like my opinion

You are entitled to feel like that, but so am I

I can see no earthy reason for speaking in tongues, nor any spiritual benefit from it either

 

[ibkc]

Well I have never had anyone here ask my why I was on a thread.?..I think you just don’t like my opinion

You are entitled to feel like that, but so am I

I can see no earthy reason for speaking in tongues, nor any spiritual benefit from it either

I used to feel as you do, because my only experience with tongue-speakers for a long time were the Pentecostal types who just seem to yell and go “woo woo woo woo” and roll around on the floor. But, more recently I have had the pleasure of being around Catholic tongue-speakers who behave with more dignity. I was in the pew behind a woman at an EF mass who quietly and reverently prayed in tongues after the mass. It was very beautiful, actually. I do think this is a genuine gift, and while I do not think it is as common as the Pentecostals would have us think (and I believe the undignified, irreverent chaos of their worship style is evidence of that), and while I have never experienced it, I would never say that there can be no spiritual benefit from it. I think it is simply one of God’s mysteries.

 

[Rulkiewicz]

I used to feel as you do, because my only experience with tongue-speakers for a long time were the Pentecostal types who just seem to yell and go “woo woo woo woo” and roll around on the floor. But, more recently I have had the pleasure of being around Catholic tongue-speakers who behave with more dignity. I was in the pew behind a woman at an EF mass who quietly and reverently prayed in tongues after the mass. It was very beautiful, actually. I do think this is a genuine gift, and while I do not think it is as common as the Pentecostals would have us think (and I believe the undignified, irreverent chaos of their worship style is evidence of that), and while I have never experienced it, I would never say that there can be no spiritual benefit from it. I think it is simply one of God’s mysteries.

Your mindset reminds of of King David’s wife. God shut up her womb because she was disgusted that a King like David would dance and shout in public when they brought back the Arc.

Remember the on lookers on the day of Pentecost? They accused Jesus’ followers as being drunk. Did the 120 whom spoke in tongue on the day of Pentecost act in a “dignified” manner?

 

[ERose]

Yes, but there are also and have been bishops, priests, monks, and nuns who have engaged in un-Christian activities. Simply being a religious doesn’t grant one the power to never choose poorly. Heck, one simply has to look (and not very hard) to see many religious involved in and promoting New Agey practices to see that there’s something fishy in the diocese of Denmark (so to speak).

And as any apologetic with half an hour of practice can tell you, being Pope doesn’t make you impeccable. You are protected from proclaiming error infailably only under very specific circumstances.

I personally find it interesting that the Charismatic movement didn’t pop up until so many abuses that saw their genesis in the '60s and '70s were firmly entrenched.

If you read who I was responding to you would have discovered why I used this line of argument in response to it.

That being said, if this movement was creating a more negative impact on the church than positive, don’t you think that the Church would have stopped it by now? Our church as slow as it is when in a process of change is usually relatively quick to deal with anything that it sees as a threat to its overall mission.

 

[ERose]

Why didn’t the Holy Spirit deign to give the gift of tongues to anybody in the Church after apostolic times?

I mean, isn’t it odd that the Holy Spirit only resumed giving some Catholics the gift of tongues in the 1960s? (And only after Pentecostalism became widespread?)

I think that it is very interesting why all of the sudden they are back. Maybe because for the first time since the Apostles roamed the earth there is more doubt that God exists? Atheism is more prevalent today than ever before. More people who call themselves Christian or Catholic do not have any relationship with God and quite honestly most do not want that releationship. Unbelief is more widespread today than it has been since the Apostles roam the countryside. So maybe that is a good reason why God is giving back to His church the gifts that helped build it up to begin with.

 

[ibkc]

Remember the on lookers on the day of Pentecost? They accused Jesus’ followers as being drunk. Did the 120 whom spoke in tongue on the day of Pentecost act in a “dignified” manner?

I believe that what happened on Pentecost is that Jesus’ followers were able to speak other languages in order to spread the Gospel. I believe they truly had the Holy Spirit in them. I believe tongue-speaking in the early church was as St. Paul described it - orderly, dignified and reverent. I do not believe that early masses included halls full of hundreds of people shrieking chaotically all at once and writhing on the ground. Your mileage may vary, but that’s what I believe.

 

[Rulkiewicz]

I believe that what happened on Pentecost is that Jesus’ followers were able to speak other languages in order to spread the Gospel. I believe they truly had the Holy Spirit in them. I believe tongue-speaking in the early church was as St. Paul described it - orderly, dignified and reverent. I do not believe that early masses included halls full of hundreds of people shrieking chaotically all at once and writhing on the ground. Your mileage may vary, but that’s what I believe.

How could they have behaved orderly if bystanders thought they were drunk?

And there are plenty of Post Apostolic writers that heard tongues spoken in churches. Tongues is a gift, and they gifts will not cease until Jesus returns.

 

[ibkc]

How could they have behaved orderly if bystanders thought they were drunk?

The Day of Pentecost was special. I do not think it happens every Sunday. I have heard too many stories of people attending Pentecostal churches being made to feel like outcasts for me to believe that the Holy Spirit is really always within these churches. I wouldn’t go so far as to say no one has it. I just don’t think everyone does, nor do I think it is best manifested in the way the Pentecostals do it. If I believed otherwise, I would probably be a Pentecostal.

And there are plenty of Post Apostolic writers that heard tongues spoken in churches.

This is not an argument I have made. I didn’t say no one spoke in tongues. I said I believe that it occured as Paul described it, not as a bunch of people whooping and hollering and rolling around on the floor.

Tongues is a gift, and they gifts will not cease until Jesus returns.

Again, this is not an argument I made. On this one, you’re preaching to the choir.

 

[DJgang]

How could they have behaved orderly if bystanders thought they were drunk?

And there are plenty of Post Apostolic writers that heard tongues spoken in churches. Tongues is a gift, and they gifts will not cease until Jesus returns.

Hey, maybe some thought they were drunk and some just joined in maybe some went over there under the shade tree and just prayed in tongues very orderly… I’m sure it definitely was a day to remember for all!

 

[Cari]

That being said, if this movement was creating a more negative impact on the church than positive, don’t you think that the Church would have stopped it by now? Our church as slow as it is when in a process of change is usually relatively quick to deal with anything that it sees as a threat to its overall mission.

In a word, no. No, I don’t think that the Church would have stopped it by now. Look at the long list of terrible things that the Church hasn’t stopped: parishes renting out spaces to groups wildly at odds with Church teaching, flagrant abuse of EMHCs (remember when they used to be “EXTRAORDINARY”? Yeah, me neither), RCIA and PRE classes that use texts written by dissidents, pro-abortion politicians receiving Eucharist, etc. etc.

I love Holy Mother Church. I firmly believe that our Holy Father is doing what he can. However, as was recently mentioned in an article somewhere (pregnancy brain, otherwise I’d post a link), many people have mentioned the “smoke of Satan” in the Church.

Jesus promised us that the gates of Hell would not prevail against His Church, and I believe that. However, there are many elements of the enemy that have taken root and need to be purged. I’m not saying that the Charismatic movement is one of these, but I am saying that just because something hasn’t been stamped out yet doesn’t mean it’s good for the Church.

My last point before I probably bow out of the discussion (which seemed to take a nasty turn a few posters back), is the following:

The devil, it has been said, can fake humility, but cannot fake obedience. Where is the obedience to the guidelines set out by the very writings of St. Paul that Charismatic devotees seem to place so much stock in? Where is the order (no more than 2-3 tongue speakers at one service, and speaking one at a time)? Where is the silence if no translator is present? And to say nothing about St. Paul’s prohibition on women speaking in church.

St. Paul closes out the 14th chapter of his 1st letter to Corinthians by saying:

39 Wherefore, brethren, be zealous to prophesy; and forbid not to speak with tongues. 40 But let all things be done decently, and according to order.

I have yet to experience the charism of speaking in tongues that does so “decently, and according to order”. Which to me, smacks of disobedience. In the face of such disobedience I will weigh in on the “gift” being of a demonic, not Divine, origin.

 

[redrosetea]

I hope its not demonic. I have a charistmatic friend that speaks in tongues…I told her it wasn’t for me…I don’t think that she would be involved in anything like that

I also don’t think she would show off, but I do think there are people that do this for attention…I saw some guy on youtube giving a demonstration…I don’t undertand how you can turn it on and off at will

I also dont think barking like dogs and rolling around is Godly at all…

At the charismatic mass I attended the woman behind us prayed so loudly you could hear her in the next room…I turned around and looked at her …she didn’t seem to be in any sort of spirit filled condtion as far as i could see…she smiled at me. I think she was doing it for attention, (she was speaking in english)…that is truely what I think…I just don’t believe all of these people suddenly get the spirit and speak in tongues

Mother Angelica said it did happen to her once…she said she kept silent most of the day…She didn’t act like she thought it was a big deal either way, nor did she say the gift remained nor have I ever heard her pray in tongues on her program

She never spoke of it again, and didn’t say that she was even praying when she received it. She just couldn’t answer people in English

We all receive the gift of the Holy Spirit at confirmation, and I have never seen a confirmed person do this

I think it happens but it is rare, and lots of the people are faking it

I am sorry if this makes me not popular on this thread but this is my honest opinion

 

[ERose]

In a word, no. No, I don’t think that the Church would have stopped it by now. Look at the long list of terrible things that the Church hasn’t stopped: parishes renting out spaces to groups wildly at odds with Church teaching, flagrant abuse of EMHCs (remember when they used to be “EXTRAORDINARY”? Yeah, me neither), RCIA and PRE classes that use texts written by dissidents, pro-abortion politicians receiving Eucharist, etc. etc.

I love Holy Mother Church. I firmly believe that our Holy Father is doing what he can. However, as was recently mentioned in an article somewhere (pregnancy brain, otherwise I’d post a link), many people have mentioned the “smoke of Satan” in the Church.

Jesus promised us that the gates of Hell would not prevail against His Church, and I believe that. However, there are many elements of the enemy that have taken root and need to be purged. I’m not saying that the Charismatic movement is one of these, but I am saying that just because something hasn’t been stamped out yet doesn’t mean it’s good for the Church.

My last point before I probably bow out of the discussion (which seemed to take a nasty turn a few posters back), is the following:

The devil, it has been said, can fake humility, but cannot fake obedience. Where is the obedience to the guidelines set out by the very writings of St. Paul that Charismatic devotees seem to place so much stock in? Where is the order (no more than 2-3 tongue speakers at one service, and speaking one at a time)? Where is the silence if no translator is present? And to say nothing about St. Paul’s prohibition on women speaking in church.

St. Paul closes out the 14th chapter of his 1st letter to Corinthians by saying:

I have yet to experience the charism of speaking in tongues that does so “decently, and according to order”. Which to me, smacks of disobedience. In the face of such disobedience I will weigh in on the “gift” being of a demonic, not Divine, origin.

Cari,

Congratulations on your pregency (if I interpreted you correctly).

Concerning your concerns, I have actually been doing some research on the CCR Movement and have learned some things that I did not realize.

One, from some of the info from international and national Catholic resources it looks like this movement is more recognised by the hierarchy than I thought. There is a Cardinal,Leo Suenens of Belgium, assigned by the Pope to guide the CCR. There is an ICCR (I is for international) office in the Vatican. The Pope has indorsed the movement by pointing out that the movement promotes evangelism, church involvement, and minimizes the no of Catholics falling away and moving to evangelical congregations.

That being said, I know it is not for everybody. As St Paul teaches we are all members of the same body, but not all of us have the same functions and that is to edify the body.

Concerning your other argument about St. Paul’s restrictions. You have to understand that he was referring to actual worship services most probably the primitive Mass.

We all are discussing speaking in tongues as if that is the only Charismata and it isn’t. As St. Paul says it is the least of the Charismata. So in the Charismata there is more offered than just speaking in tongues.

God bless and I agree with you I think this will be my last post on this thread as well.

 

[hawkeye]

Hi, hawkeye! (…is that as in M.A.S.H?)

No, about 5 years ago where I worked newcomers to the job put that name on me because I being there longer was able to spot their mistakes before the boss did.

They were grateful and put that Hawk-eye name on me, doesn’t matter, I’ve been called worse.

What I find interesting with this passage is that there were so many different languages amongst the listeners… yet they each heard the Apostles speak in their own language; since we do not know exactly what happened, could it not have been that the Holy Spirit allowed all to hear in their own languages rather than all of the Apostles (and those with them) speaking simultaneously in multiple languages?

Yes probably which is why I said that maybe everyone there was filled with the Holy Spirit.

In either case, this example is not of people speaking in tongues (indiscernible languages) but of people speaking in various languages.

Yes could be , a bit like the Pope giving his Christmas greetings in many languages.
The thing about this passage is it has stuck in my mind for 40 + years since childhood.

Then I took it that when the Apostles where filled with the Holy Spirit, that they spoke with the power of the Holy Spirit and each understood in their own language. (in an instant)

Maybe that’s not the case.

…ever witness those services where people start to sing and dance and jump and scream and drop as if dead once touched by one of the ministers/assistants or those where people are “healed” form various infirmities? …some of it could truly be authentic… some of it do seem to be very suspect… still, some of it might actually be fabricated.

On TV only, the closest thing I saw was when Fr Peter Mary Rookey from Chicago came to Ireland.

People where "Slain in the Spirit " and there where catchers, I saw many fall over, I personally didn’t feel anything.
I did hear testimonies, and I did see the crippled walk, I never heard Fr speak in tongues.

…sadly, charity places a greater demand on us and is less flashy…

Yes and knocks prophecy and speaking in tongues for six.

I have nothing against animals, but have you noticed the insanity… people treating animals with more compassion than human beings? …having an extremely suspect relationship with these animals to the point that other members of the family are of lower rank than the animals? …allowing the animals to come between parent and child and husband and wife? …people catering to several animals, yet not having enough love and compassion to adopt an orphaned child or two?

Oh boy ! are you reading my mind, I’ve often observed this, especially in another country I’ve visited, but shall remain nameless.
I’ve seen it here in Ireland too, on a smaller scale.

So it is not surprising that people would jump for joy to demonstrate their spiritual growth through a visible sign, specially when more and more people join in…

Well I’m sure there are genuine cases, but some could be caught
up in the moment, like some hypnotic frenzy.

Don’t know if you’ve noticed, but some of the Rave music the young listen too today has a sort of hypnotic beat to it.

A bit like people that riot, they wouldn’t do it on their own, but when the crowd does it, they get caught up with the moment.

The Priest I heard doing it was skeptical of another Priest he had heard doing it, I remember him remarking that it was very strange and could it be right.

And here he was doing it, actually it was a Fr Gobbi prayer meeting to which I can say after much prayer and discernment, I do not believe.

 

[Athanasiy]

I do not think that speaking in tongues practice has a demonic origin.
Neither I think it has a Divine origin.
Its more looks like earthly and fleshly.
I mean its not demonic or angelic , it seems like a human.
As was said hear , that we should judge by the fruits , but I think even if there are the fruits of righteousness and holiness in the Pentecostal Christian , is it necessary because of this practice ?
Even if one feels excited and inspired from this extraordinary experience , because of this practice , what makes one sure that it is the manifestation of the Holy Spirit and has to be used for the general Christian practice ?
Some of the Pentecostal pioneers used to believe that , the ones who do not speak in tongues they are not saved.
Now in absolute majority they do not support the former opinion.
The Baptism of the Holy Spirit according to the Pentecostal Christians is viewed as a secondary experience, following the experience of salvation or conversion in the person’s life.
It means that if there is no experience of salvation and conversion the one can not be baptized by the Spirit and to
speak in tongues .
The problem is with this definition of the Holy Spirit coming upon some one and makes one to speak in tongues ; and in practice it’s a problem with the idea of speaking in tongues ‘at will’
I think if we would compare the different Pentecostal experiences , we could find out that there are different experiences in speaking in tongues and some times some local Pentecostal community makes the doctrine from their own experience.
I know not a few Pentecostals who do not speak in tongues at all , or speak very rarely , though they were baptized by the Holy Spirit as they say.
Now , you can hear more this practice in use among Charismatics , who insist more often and use more often this experience.
In Ukraine , especially in the area where I live , Independent Pentecostals have the people who say that they have the gift of tongues ( some actually make distinctions between
‘Speaking in tongues’ and ‘the gift of tongues’) and the people who say that they have the gifts of the prophesy.
The Churches council forbid them to speak for the prevention of confusion , and it forces the tensions , therefore many churches consider themselves independent Pentecostal Churches.

The Charismatic practice , besides speaking in tongues: hysterical laughter or holy laughter, physical spasms or jerks, dancing or shouting, jumping, running, excessive crying or weeping, falling to the floor under the Holy Spirit’s power (slain in the Spirit) or rolling across the floor.
These practice is very often certified by the Orthodox Christians and also by the Baptists as - demonic practice.

I was exploring this topic according to the literal approach by the Scripture , and I find out that , there is the room to find the speaking in tongues experience - as necessary practice for todays Christians.
And there is also totally opposite evidence that this practice has nothing to do with the Bible.

In the area where I live there are about 7 Denominations , and when I was comparing their theology with the Bible , that was one of the starting impacts which later brought me to the conversion to Catholicism.
Ukrainian Charismatic Churches who practice the speaking in tongues experience have the great success among the young people , especially in Kiev , there is a huge charismatic church , which have the powerful ministry.
As far as I know , the mayor of Kiev is the member of the Charismatic movement.
He is one of the richest people in Ukraine .( I wish there would be more business mans like him.)
The fact is that Charismatism which use the practice of tongues speaking - is very successful movement in many areas around the world.
It has also success among the young people .
When I see the yesterdays sinners , who changed their lives and started a new life , and are boastful of what God make in their life , I can not say some thing against , if the people indeed changed their life to the true conversion.
The main thing probably is to combine their spiritual zealousy with wisdom and wholesome sense.
And also that their holy upheaval would be durable and pleasant to God.

 

[Lepanto]

Why didn’t the Holy Spirit deign to give the gift of tongues to anybody in the Church after apostolic times?

I mean, isn’t it odd that the Holy Spirit only resumed giving some Catholics the gift of tongues in the 1960s? (And only after Pentecostalism became widespread?)

Can anyone please cite some Church-approved or otherwise authoritative documentation showing that the Holy Spirit has been gracing Catholics with the gift of speaking in tongues for 2,000 years?

My position, unless proved otherwise, is that this phenomena since the 1960s is nothing but the dangerous infiltration of Pentecostal practices into Catholicism.