Speaking in tongues: genuine charism or silly gibberish?

[christisall]

How long have you been around spiritually speaking, and what is your formation? Are you a Christian or a Catholic? To say those of us who have been around the spiritual block are tricked is really funny. Ha Ha. What’s this “the God is talking to them” thing and Karma? Do you believe in Jesus as King of all Kings and Master of all?

With out a doubt it is made up. If anything they “trick” them selves into think the God is talking to them. I can speak in tongues like that right now if I wanted…

 

[Karmastrike]

Meaning they just try to show off. I am Catholic. I see “speaking in Tongues” where I live enough to know its fake.

Do you believe in Jesus as King of all Kings and Master of all?

^Nah I’m just saying it as a trick through all my past threads; I’m satanic in hiding.

 

[christisall]

Well you’ve gone to the wrong places apparently. A lot of people think real spiritual things are fake at times, but it (the Charimatic ministry) is approved by the Church, and they know it involves speaking in tongues, so do you believe in the authority of the Church in this regard then, or are you more of a cafeteria Catholic?

Meaning they just try to show off. I am Catholic. I see “speaking in Tongues” where I live enough to know its fake.

 

[christisall]

Why don’t you ask Him in prayer what He thinks of it all?

Meaning they just try to show off. I am Catholic. I see “speaking in Tongues” where I live enough to know its fake.

Do you believe in Jesus as King of all Kings and Master of all?

^Nah I’m just saying it as a trick through all my past threads; I’m satanic in hiding.

 

[Karmastrike]

Theres no reason to “get in my face” and insult me by calling me a cafeteria catholic. I just don’t think its real. Maybe sometimes its real, but on TV, and being paid money… ehh I don’t see it.

 

[christisall]

I think you and others who believe this way are tricking themselves (rationalizing) into not believing it, or not opening your hearts to God’s will in thsi regard, or both.

With out a doubt it is made up. If anything they “trick” them selves into think the God is talking to them. I can speak in tongues like that right now if I wanted…

 

[Karmastrike]

I think you and others who believe this way are tricking themselves (rationalizing) into not believing it, or not opening your hearts to God’s will in thsi regard, or both.

Is my saying your signature now? How kind.

If anything its done in private I think. I don’t think theres a reason to fight over it. If i talk in gibberish right now… I mean anyone can do it.

 

[christisall]

And there’s no reason to get in my face and state that all who pray in tongues are duped, tricked, or whatever- that is really an arrogant statement. I am not talking about protestants praying in tongues or something you see on TV, because when I see this I just don’t feel it. Like Benny Hinn, God Bless him, millionaire that he is, he sweeps his arm and all of his people fall enmasse, come on, we used to laugh seeing this. You can’t truly trust this power unless it is Eucharist based and under the mantle of Mary who was at the first Penetcost.

When a true healing priest, like Fr. DiOrio in the past or others given the gift walks in prayer by you, you know and feel it if you are open and your knees might buckle because the power of the Holy Spirit (please don’t get in my face and state I don’t recognize the power of the Holy Spirit, there is no denying it, it is powerful, Holy, burns like a fire and ignites praise and adoration, both quiet and outward), and I have been Confirmed by the Church in this Holy Spirit with the promise it will always guide me.

Theres no reason to “get in my face” and insult me by calling me a cafeteria catholic. I just don’t think its real. Maybe sometimes its real, but on TV, and being paid money… ehh I don’t see it.

 

[Karmastrike]

Then lets just agree to dis-agree.

 

[Jerry-Jet]

How many canonized saints of the Catholic Church have spoken in tongues?

I believe that it can be a legitimate gift of the Holy Spirit but is extremely rare.

I guess you could say the same about the stigmata.

Anyone who FAKES a gift of the Holy Spirit sins against the Holy Spirit–that’s not something I would recommend that anyone do.

 

[Bruised_Reed]

I ask those of you who do not believe that tongues is authentic: Do you think the other charismatic gifts are fake, too? Interpretation (of tongues), discernment, prophesy, healing, faith, etc…all fake?

 

[Sabda]

Oh, Okay, well I’ve sat and prayed in the Spirit many times with a number of priests, who are completely obedient to Holy mother Church, so I guess they have OK’ed it. You are wrong in stating these as a requirement - go ask your Bishop if Charismatic prayer meetings, in which tongues are prayed, require discernment to exist. They are already under a Church umbrella and oversight all the way from the Vatican to the diocesan level. You are spreading error and overstepping your bounds saying that these gifts have to be discerned because it is an approved segment of the Church. If someone goes off the deep end, in this or any other Catholic group it requires discernment, but the Charismatic ministry, which includes the spiritual gifts, is approved by the Church and under local authority. Most dioceses that have a Charismatic ministry have a priest who is appointed by the Bishop as the Charismatic liaison, who is the eyes of Christ in this regard. And of course they pray in tongues as well. So on your basis of approval, we’ve been approved, in addition to already have been approved.

You really have not read any of my post on this thread have you? Your response to me clearly shows you have not.

If I started speaking in a language which I never learned that would clearly be a supernatural gift. I would seek the advice of a priest before continuing. The Bible does call for us to test the spirits. The Bible also shows that Satan can manipulate tongues and can appear as an angel of light. I would think that any practicing Catholic who has suddenly started speaking in a supernatural tongue would naturally want to take it to a priest for discussion for guidance if nothing else. What is so wrong with that? We are encouraged to go to our priest for all kinds of other things, why NOT this? Yes, the Church does state this is an authentic movement. The Church DOES NOT state that every single person who claims to have this gift actually does. Big difference.

 

[Joysong]

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=3747425&postcount=100

People were posting so fast that this post was probably not seen. Therefore, I reaffirm that the gift of praying in tongues is not a supernatural gift where one’s intelligence is overpowered and they have no control over their prayer. It may happen supernaturally the first time, to indicate to the person that God is bestowing the gift to pray in this manner, but afterwards it is entirely at the will of the person praying.

There are other gifts mentioned as charisms in scripture, such as administration and teaching. Neither of these are supernaturally exercised in one’s role as an administrator or teacher, as though every decision they make is done explicitly under supernatural power of the Spirit. No, it is simply a gift of grace that bears the name charism, to distinguish it from man’s natural ability and points to the Spirit who is actively gracing the person. The honor and glory are therefore HIS.

How many canonized saints of the Catholic Church have spoken in tongues?

How is this a justifiable argument? I can think of about five canonized saints in the United States in the last century. That we cannot name more than five, does it mean that God is not capable of bestowing this gift on the thousands of people who pray? Has anyone asked them if they prayed in this way? Are there autobiographies where they spoke of their prayer?

 

[christisall]

I’m speaking from my direct experience, where I have prayed with priests in the Spirit, these priests were approved by the Archbishop, one was the Charismatic Laison for the Bishop.

Most prayer in the Spirit that is Intercessory or even in small groups for a person, is an angelic language, the angels are with us and they absolutely understand what is being said. I have also heard of miraculous occurrences of language. So what’s your point -I did go to a priest, even one acting as Laison for the Archbishop, and the Charsimatic ministry is approved all the way tot he Vatican level. Why don’t you address that. The name Charsimatic alone implies prayer in tongues and various gifts of the Holy Spirit. Do you know all of the languages of the angels, and who does?

Paul even states 1Cor 14 2 “For one who speaks in a tongue does not speak to human beings but to God, for no one listens; he utters mysteries in spirit”

You really have not read any of my post on this thread have you? Your response to me clearly shows you have not.

If I started speaking in a language which I never learned that would clearly be a supernatural gift. I would seek the advice of a priest before continuing. The Bible does call for us to test the spirits. The Bible also shows that Satan can manipulate tongues and can appear as an angel of light. I would think that any practicing Catholic who has suddenly started speaking in a supernatural tongue would naturally want to take it to a priest for discussion for guidance if nothing else. What is so wrong with that? We are encouraged to go to our priest for all kinds of other things, why NOT this? Yes, the Church does state this is an authentic movement. The Church DOES NOT state that every single person who claims to have this gift actually does. Big difference.

 

[Sabda]

I’m speaking from my direct experience, where I have prayed with priests in the Spirit, these priests were approved by the Archbishop, one was the Charismatic Laison for the Bishop.

Most prayer in the Spirit that is Intercessory or even in small groups for a person, is an angelic language, the angels are with us and they absolutely understand what is being said. I have also heard of miraculous occurrences of language. So what’s your point -I did go to a priest, even one acting as Laison for the Archbishop, and the Charismatic ministry is approved all the way tot he Vatican level. Why don’t you address that. The name Charismatic alone implies prayer in tongues and various gifts of the Holy Spirit. Do you know all of the languages of the angels, and who does? Paul even states 1Cor 14 2 “For one who speaks in a tongue does not speak to human beings but to God, for no one listens; he utters mysteries in spirit”

I’m sorry you feeling so angry. I never in my post implied that you did not have it. I’m sorry if you felt I was. In fact in an early post I clearly stated that I did not have the authority to be able to tell who did and did not have it. That authority belonges to Holy Mother Church. This movement has by and large not existed in the Church in any large way until recently. I would think it would be understandable for a lot of Christians to be leery of it. There are a lot of things going on that have not been a part of the Church until recently. We’re simply testing the spirits and seeing how things play out. The tongues issue, as far as good fruit/bad fruit, is quite mixed in all honesty.

 

[Jerry-Jet]

If there isn’t a person who can interpret the tongue in church the person should shut up!

That’s what the bible says.

 

[christisall]

Thanks for the post, I was just listening to Rich Mullins yesterday. (I see you have one of his songs in your signature) After he died, I was trying to get started with some music, and I was talking to him, saying, Rich, hey help me out here, help me get this going, how’s it goin up there?

There was a conference in Wichita I think in 2002, and I called and asked if they needed any help as I had just done my first CD. It turns out Jeff Cavins was doing a Life on the Rock type thing, interviewing the priests in Wichita who Rich had been going to to convert to the Catholic faith. The live show featured the priests talking about Rich, how they met, how he was in RCIA, just another guy. Also about how most of his earnings, he didn’t want to know how much he made, as he had most of it assigned over to the Native American kids he lived with in New Mexico, he took enough to live on and such. He ahd jsut signed anew music contract as well.

Mostly, they spoke of how he wanted to become Catholic, and on the Friday I belive before he was coming to Wichita for a concert, on the trip in which he was killed, he had called Father and said I can’t wait I have to receive the Body and Blood of Christ. So they made arrangements for him to come into the Church when he came to Wichita, and as I recall I think he wanted to do it on the feast of St. Francis.

Anyway it turned out that a woman who was singing, beautiful voice, wasn’t too sure about singing some Rich Mullins songs,
and I called. So I spoke with Jeff Cavins and he said they felt it was from the Lord. I sang a couple of songs interspersed, Hold me Jesus and ended with Awesome God. Jeff got them all going, encouraged them to sing along, and the whole place started singing, I just had to go along, and they all cheered and cheered for Rich. A real blessing.

It wasn’t until quite a bit later when I reflected on this I remembered asking Rich to help me out, and I get my first real outing singing his songs!!

Jeff Cavins said during the presentation that Rich was likely received into the Church by the Baptism of Desire. In speaking to people at the booth after, I found many of them knew him being Wichita and all. I was discussing this with one woman, and she said at the memorial, she went to Communion asking the Lord to receive for Rich as well. As she was receiving she had been given two hosts by the priest.

Peace

I ask those of you who do not believe that tongues is authentic: Do you think the other charismatic gifts are fake, too? Interpretation (of tongues), discernment, prophesy, healing, faith, etc…all fake?

 

[Sabda]

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=3747425&postcount=100

People were posting so fast that this post was probably not seen. Therefore, I reaffirm that the gift of praying in tongues is not a supernatural gift where one’s intelligence is overpowered and they have no control over their prayer. It may happen supernaturally the first time, to indicate to the person that God is bestowing the gift to pray in this manner, but afterwards it is entirely at the will of the person praying.

There are other gifts mentioned as charisms in scripture, such as administration and teaching. Neither of these are supernaturally exercised in one’s role as an administrator or teacher, as though every decision they make is done explicitly under supernatural power of the Spirit. No, it is simply a gift of grace that bears the name charism, to distinguish it from man’s natural ability and points to the Spirit who is actively gracing the person. The honor and glory are therefore HIS.

How is this a justifiable argument? I can think of about five canonized saints in the United States in the last century. That we cannot name more than five, does it mean that God is not capable of bestowing this gift on the thousands of people who pray? Has anyone asked them if they prayed in this way? Are there autobiographies where they spoke of their prayer?

Christisall posted what the CCC says about this and the CCC makes it clear that tongues, like miracles, is an extraordinary gift.

From the Catholic Catechism Paragraph 2003:

“Grace is first and foremost the gift of the Spirit who justifies and sanctifies us. But grace also includes the gifts that the Spirit grants us to associate us with his work, to enable us to collaborate in the salvation of others and in the growth of the Body of Christ, the Church. There are sacramental graces, gifts proper to the different sacraments. There are furthermore special graces, also called charisms after the Greek term used by St. Paul and meaning “favor,” “gratuitous gift,” “benefit.” **Whatever their character - sometimes it is extraordinary, such as the gift of miracles or of tongues **- charisms are oriented toward sanctifying grace and are intended for the common good of the Church. They are at the service of charity which builds up the Church.”

This paragraph appears to put the gift of tongues on par with miracles as something not ordinary. If it’s extraordinary than doesn’t that make it a supernatural gift? After all aren’t miracles supernatural gifts?

I just checked out what the dictionary has to say

extraordinary

Main Entry: ex·traor·di·nary
Pronunciation: \ik-ˈstrȯr-də-ˌner-ē, ˌek-strə-ˈȯr-\
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle English extraordinarie, from Latin extraordinarius, from extra ordinem out of course, from extra + ordinem, accusative of ordin-, ordo order
Date: 15th century
1 a: going beyond what is usual, regular, or customary b: exceptional to a very marked extent cof a financial transaction : nonrecurring
2: employed for or sent on a special function or service

It appears that the gift of tongues would fall under definition #1. If it’s not “usual, regular, or customary” than what is it? Seriously, I’m trying to understand this. To me extraordinary means supernatural, simply because it is out of the ordinary.

 

[christisall]

From EWTN at ewtn.com/expert/answers/charismatic_renewal.htm

The Charismatic Renewal as a movement within the Catholic Church has been acknowledged by two Popes, Paul VI and John Paul II. Speaking to the International Conference on the Catholic Charismatic Renewal on May 19, 1975, Pope Paul VI encouraged the attendees in their renewal efforts and especially to remain anchored in the Church.

This authentic desire to situate yourselves in the Church is the authentic sign of the action of the Holy Spirit … How could this ‘spiritual renewal’ not be a chance for the Church and the world? And how, in this case could one not take all the means to ensure that it remains so…
Pope John Paul II, for his part, has been more explicit. Speaking to a group of international leaders of the Renewal on December 11, 1979, he said,

I am convinced that this movement is a very important component of the entire renewal of the Church.
Noting that since age 11 he had said a daily prayer to the Holy Spirit he added,

This was my own spiritual initiation, so I can understand all these charisms. They are all part of the richness of the Lord. I am convinced that this movement is a sign of his action.
For his part, Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, Prefect for the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, has added his voice to the Pope’s in acknowledging the good occurring in the Charismatic Renewal and providing some cautions. In a forward to a book by Cardinal Suenens, at that time the Pope’s delegate to the Charismatic Renewal, the Prefect comments on the Post-Conciliar period stating,

At the heart of a world imbued with a rationalistic skepticism, a new experience of the Holy Spirit suddenly burst forth. And, since then, that experience has assumed a breadth of a worldwide Renewal movement. What the New Testament tells us about the charisms - which were seen as visible signs of the coming of the Spirit - is not just ancient history, over and done with, for it is once again becoming extremely topical.

Speaking of the book’s subject, renewal and the powers of darkness, he says,

What is the relation between personal experience and the common faith of the Church? Both factors are important: a dogmatic faith unsupported by personal experience remains empty; mere personal experience unrelated to the faith of the Church remains blind.

Finally, he urges those who read the book to pay special attention to the author’s double plea,

… to those responsible for the ecclesiastical ministry - from parish priests to bishops - not to let the Renewal pass them by but to welcome it fully; and on the other (hand) … to the members of the Renewal to cherish and maintain their link with the whole Church and with the charisms of their pastors. [Renewal and the Powers of Darkness, Leo Cardinal Suenens (Ann Arbor: Servant Books, 1983)]

Christisall posted what the CCC says about this and the CCC makes it clear that tongues, like miracles, is an extraordinary gift.

This paragraph appears to put the gift of tongues on par with miracles as something not ordinary. If it’s extraordinary than doesn’t that make it a supernatural gift? After all aren’t miracles supernatural gifts?

I just checked out what the dictionary has to say

extraordinary

It appears that the gift of tongues would fall under definition #1. If it’s not “usual, regular, or customary” than what is it? Seriously, I’m trying to understand this. To me extraordinary means supernatural, simply because it is out of the ordinary.

 

[Exalt]

I think people feel all sorts of things that they don’t understand.

These people believe that God (or other, lesser, positive spiritual beings) are causing them to speak in ways that are unintelligible to human ears. It sometimes is the result of religious conditioning. They see everyone else ‘speaking in tongues’ around them, they think there’s something to it, so they start imagining doing it themselves too.

They don’t understand that the gibberish they speak actually comes from inside their own mind.