Speaking in tongues: genuine charism or silly gibberish?

[christisall]

This is a good article ont this topic from last week at Spirit Daily, entitled “The Speaking in Tongues: Gibberish or a Powerful Means of Spiritual Warfare?” ,about a new book by a priest on the topic, comments from a Cardinal, and some notes about saints. spiritdaily.com/tongues.htm

 

[guanophore]

I was raised catholic grew up loving God with all my heart but walked away from God in my early 20’s. I walked away from God I left the Catholic Church because I left God. 25 years later I have come back to a relationship with My Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.It was during a pentecostal worship service that I recieved the gift of tongues. Since then I have been praying and wanting to come back into the Catholic Church. My pastor has directed me that this is where I would be truly at home and does encourage me to make this journey. I keep searching for a charismatic renewal group in my community but most catholics in my area including local priests have no knowledge of these services in my area.I truly believe my opening up my heart to the gifts of the Holy spirit will lead me to all of Gods truths when it is right for me. God has bestowed this gracious gift upon me I believe because I am in need of it. Thank you Lord for saving me. Please pray for my journey.

Welcome Home, pattyreyes! And welcome to CAF. I hope you keep coming! I had a similar experience, and it was the Charismatic Renewal that brought be back to the sacramental life of the Church. Try this link and see if they can point you in the right direction. If you feel comfortable, you can PM (private message) me with your location and I might be able to help you more.

Of course you are in my prayers.

 

[guanophore]

Can God give this gift to anyone he chooses?
Absolutely.
Do I think he’s doing this today.
I’m skeptical.
Speaking in tongues disappeared from the planet for hundreds of years … and is now back for the last 100 years or so.

I’m a devout Catholic.
I love Jesus and I love my faith.
I pray constantly.
I do not believe that these people are actually speaking in tongues today.

This may sound terrible, but this is what I think.
I see those that speak in tongues today as having a lack of faith.
It’s like they need proof that they are connected to the Holy Spirit.
Needing proof is the opposite of faith.

michel

Certainly everyone is entitled to their opinion, michel, even if it does contradict Scripture and Church Teaching.

Th truth is that this gift never “disappeared”, and though it lost emphasis in the Church in favor of more maturating gifts, it has been the joyous gift to receptive saints, who have written about it. You are right, that praying and speaking in tongues is directly related to faith, and lack therof. However, there is not a contradiction there. God will meet us wherever we are, and build our faith. Such is His mercy, and such are the nature of gifts such as this.

1 Cor 14:2-3
2 For one who speaks in a tongue speaks not to men but to God; for no one understands him, but he utters mysteries in the Spirit.

1 Cor 14:4-5
“He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself… 5 Now I want you all to speak in tongues…”

Why begrudge this to someone who needs a faith booster?

 

[jean8]

I was raised catholic grew up loving God with all my heart but walked away from God in my early 20’s. I walked away from God I left the Catholic Church because I left God. 25 years later I have come back to a relationship with My Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.It was during a pentecostal worship service that I recieved the gift of tongues. Since then I have been praying and wanting to come back into the Catholic Church. My pastor has directed me that this is where I would be truly at home and does encourage me to make this journey. I keep searching for a charismatic renewal group in my community but most catholics in my area including local priests have no knowledge of these services in my area.I truly believe my opening up my heart to the gifts of the Holy spirit will lead me to all of Gods truths when it is right for me. God has bestowed this gracious gift upon me I believe because I am in need of it. Thank you Lord for saving me. Please pray for my journey.

patty,
Ask your pastor if there is a Catholic Renewal group in your vicinity.
Or go to EWTN and type in Ralph Martin. He also has a group of Charismatics. This gift is given to all christians. It’s a wonderous experience. Visit n AOG if you have to.

God bless you,
jean8

 

[jcrichton]

This whole thing about"attention seekers" to me is really quite amusing. It shows that those who claim this have absolutley, and I mean absolutely no knowledge of what is really going on with these people. I have been in Catholic Charismatic worship services, incuding Mass, adoration, song, individual prayer by a multitude of pirests, 24 Hr adoration chapel, rosary, song etc. with about 2,500 people present, and I can guarantee you that no one at that service travelled, in some cases from other countries, and all states around the country, to gain some “attention”. From who, from each other? The argument and accusation is so ridiculous it really almost doesn’t deserve comment. This shows how shallow and childish the views are of people who say this are, like a little kid saying"you’re just trying to get attention." Ridiculous.

It seems to me that the only reply that you would accept is something in the vein of “everyone that claims to be speaking in tongues is a very spiritual person that is just closer to God than anyone can ever be…”

If you say that 2500 people speaking in tongues are all genuine, I believe you!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[christisall]

…something made up? What would I have to gain? I do not know if you have read some of my other posts–I am not seeking “points.” I respond to the best of my abilities; I’ve made it clear to the readers that I am not a scholar or a theologian… I gain no favor from God by perpetrating lies in order to win an argument.

Angel

Speaking of accusing someone, in this case many someone’s of accusing someone of something, and “something made up… You said: What would I have to gain?”…isn’t that what all of you are doing, accusing charismatic Catholics of pretending, looking for attention, just gibberish, etc.? So, how does it feel to you(all)?

You said, in my comments about bringing up the repetitious prayer angle, which I noted Catholic attackers use frequently e.g. the rosary, etc :

The Protestant tool? I did not know they had exclusive rights… but don’t worry… I’ve heard a few ministers speak for quite a while on a single passage of Scriptures… and talk about repetitious (“can I hear an ‘Amen’?”)… they even trivialize their worship by seeking the approval and seconding of their flocks… but you must agree that 10 to 20 people going off on chants that can last and last is very repetitious!

Here’s a quote on St. Franics:

*Now St Francis, in order to conceal his sanctity, so soon as he entered the room, threw himself upon the bed, pretending to fall asleep. Bernard likewise soon after went to bed, and began to snore as if sleeping soundly. On this, St Francis, thinking that Bernard was really fast asleep, got up and began to pray. Raising his hands and eyes to heaven, he exclaimed with great devotion and fervour, “**My God! my God!” at the same time weeping bitterly; and thus he remained on his knees all night, repeating with great love and fervour the words, “My God! my God!” and none others./**B]

And this he did because, being enlightened by the Holy Spirit, he contemplated and admired the divine majesty of God, who deigned to take pity on the perishing world, and to save not only the soul of Francis, his poor little one, but those of many others also through his means.

Another note on St. Francis:

St. Francis [of Assisi] passed an entire night repeating: You are “my All.” Being in contemplation, he pronounced these words, as if wishing to say: I have considered You piece by piece, O My Lord, and I found that You are very lovable; now I behold You and see that You are “my All.” St. Bruno was content to say, “O Goodness!” And St. Augustine: “O Beauty ever ancient and ever new!” You are ancient because You are eternal, but You are new because You bring a new sweetness to my heart. These are words of contemplation.
[Cf. Treatise Bk. 6, ch. 5].

You said:

“but you must agree that 10 to 20 people going off on chants that can last and last is very repetitious”

I would say, try telling that to a group of monks or sisters who rise at all hours and repeat certain prayers over and over.

If it’s truly praising the Lord, and I am speaking of Catholic Charismatic worship, considering St. Francis and others repeated words all night and on many occasions, what’s the problem?*

 

[Layman]

Here’s a notion:

‘Speaking in tongues’ is a poor description. What happened with the Apostles is that they spoke, and all their hearers perceived them as speaking to them their own language.

By the power of the Holy Spirit they communicated directly, mind to mind, and their hearers interpreted that as hearing them speak to them in Aramaic, Greek, Latin, whatever.

With the Charismatic version: What’s the good of a jabber that no-one understands? That sounds like the opposite of what happened to the Apostles.

I admit I didn’t read all the previous posts. I skimmed. So sorry if this has been said already. I propose that because an experience is in a religious setting, and makes you feel good and more religious, it doesn’t automatically follow that it’s holy.

 

[christisall]

At a particular event I am referring to, not all speak in tongues, many Catholics come to the conference and experience the Spirit there. Many do speak in tongues. But most all sing and praise the Lord, and most all experience reverential worship with the Eucharist at the center. It has nothing to so with how close to God I am or others compared to another. There are many paths to holiness. I just don’t like when people sit back and think their way is the only way/path if in fact it isn’t.

It seems to me that the only reply that you would accept is something in the vein of “everyone that claims to be speaking in tongues is a very spiritual person that is just closer to God than anyone can ever be…”

If you say that 2500 people speaking in tongues are all genuine, I believe you!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[christisall]

I suggest you read this link for starters:
spiritdaily.com/tongues.htm

Here’s a notion:

‘Speaking in tongues’ is a poor description. What happened with the Apostles is that they spoke, and all their hearers perceived them as speaking to them their own language.

By the power of the Holy Spirit they communicated directly, mind to mind, and their hearers interpreted that as hearing them speak to them in Aramaic, Greek, Latin, whatever.

With the Charismatic version: What’s the good of a jabber that no-one understands? That sounds like the opposite of what happened to the Apostles.

I admit I didn’t read all the previous posts. I skimmed. So sorry if this has been said already. I propose that because an experience is in a religious setting, and makes you feel good and more religious, it doesn’t automatically follow that it’s holy.

 

[Lepanto]

Speaking of accusing someone, in this case many someone’s of accusing someone of something, and “something made up… You said: What would I have to gain?”…isn’t that what all of you are doing, accusing charismatic Catholics of pretending, looking for attention, just gibberish, etc.? So, how does it feel to you(all)?

You said, in my comments about bringing up the repetitious prayer angle, which I noted Catholic attackers use frequently e.g. the rosary, etc :

The Protestant tool? I did not know they had exclusive rights… but don’t worry… I’ve heard a few ministers speak for quite a while on a single passage of Scriptures… and talk about repetitious (“can I hear an ‘Amen’?”)… they even trivialize their worship by seeking the approval and seconding of their flocks… but you must agree that 10 to 20 people going off on chants that can last and last is very repetitious!

Here’s a quote on St. Franics:

*Now St Francis, in order to conceal his sanctity, so soon as he entered the room, threw himself upon the bed, pretending to fall asleep. Bernard likewise soon after went to bed, and began to snore as if sleeping soundly. On this, St Francis, thinking that Bernard was really fast asleep, got up and began to pray. Raising his hands and eyes to heaven, he exclaimed with great devotion and fervour, “**My God! my God!” at the same time weeping bitterly; and thus he remained on his knees all night, repeating with great love and fervour the words, “My God! my God!” and none others./***B]

And this he did because, being enlightened by the Holy Spirit, he contemplated and admired the divine majesty of God, who deigned to take pity on the perishing world, and to save not only the soul of Francis, his poor little one, but those of many others also through his means.

Another note on St. Francis:

St. Francis [of Assisi] passed an entire night repeating: You are “my All.” Being in contemplation, he pronounced these words, as if wishing to say: I have considered You piece by piece, O My Lord, and I found that You are very lovable; now I behold You and see that You are “my All.” St. Bruno was content to say, “O Goodness!” And St. Augustine: “O Beauty ever ancient and ever new!” You are ancient because You are eternal, but You are new because You bring a new sweetness to my heart. These are words of contemplation.
[Cf. Treatise Bk. 6, ch. 5].

You said:

“but you must agree that 10 to 20 people going off on chants that can last and last is very repetitious”

I would say, try telling that to a group of monks or sisters who rise at all hours and repeat certain prayers over and over.

If it’s truly praising the Lord, and I am speaking of Catholic Charismatic worship, considering St. Francis and others repeated words all night and on many occasions, what’s the problem?

Are you suggesting that St. Francis of Assisi spoke in tongues? If so, what language(s)?

 

[christisall]

If you read the quote from the person I am responding to, stating that 10-20 people repeating chanting something is not good, that specifically was my point with St. Francis. I was referring to an earlier discussion which inferred Charsimatics were participating in vain repetition a stated in the Bible, and I stated this reminded me of the Potestant attcks accusing us of such.

As far as praising in tongues, he may have, there were many inferrences that e.g. when he and Claire got together the fire of the Holy Spirit could be seen glowing over their abode. The Charismatic renewal in this age, as three recent Holy Father’s have stated, is a gift for the renewal of the Church.

From the website flameministries.org/praise.htm

I submit this:

*St. Augustine of Hippo had stated in his time that the Church only needed the Charismatic Gifts in the beginning to get the infant Church growing, but now that it had reached its maturity, it no longer needed these Gifts. This is the view held and taught by many seminaries and priests today. St. Augustine however, after witnessing 73 miraculous healings in his own Cathedral in Hippo later wrote that he was wrong and that the Church did need these Gifts. in addition, the word Charismatic has been abused so much that people now associate it with pop stars, film stars and fanatical despots like Hitler and Jim Jones. Consequently it has lost its true meaning and it has hence diminished its relevance in the minds of many Catholics.

(As the church became more institutionalised, the gifts of the Spirit became less common and were seen only in the lives of the great “Saints’. Some, such as St Augustine of Hippo (354-430 AD) initially thought that they were meant only for the early Church, to “kick-start” her, so to speak. However, he later withdrew this opinion in his Retractions, when he himself witnessed the gifts in abundance in his own Diocese. It was apparent to him then that the gifts occurred where people had expectant faith. Later one sees the gifts in evidence in the lives of St Francis of Assisi (1182-1226), St Dominic (1170-1221), St Catherine of Sienna (1330-1380), St Teresa of Avila (1515-1582), St John Bosco (1815-1888), The Cure of Ars (St John Vianney – 1786-1859) and many others down the centuries. The Cure of Ars is known to have had the gift of tongues.) - catholic-jhb.org.za/tracts/renewal.htm*

Are you suggesting that St. Francis of Assisi spoke in tongues? If so, what language(s)?

 

[jean8]

This whole thing about"attention seekers" to me is really quite amusing. It shows that those who claim this have absolutley, and I mean absolutely no knowledge of what is really going on with these people. I have been in Catholic Charismatic worship services, incuding Mass, adoration, song, individual prayer by a multitude of pirests, 24 Hr adoration chapel, rosary, song etc. with about 2,500 people present, and I can guarantee you that no one at that service travelled, in some cases from other countries, and all states around the country, to gain some “attention”. From who, from each other? The argument and accusation is so ridiculous it really almost doesn’t deserve comment. This shows how shallow and childish the views are of people who say this are, like a little kid saying"you’re just trying to get attention." Ridiculous.

I’m sorry to hear some do not accept the gift of tongues is for today .
If you are familiar with Ralph Martin, he is a Catholic charismatic . Look him up at EWTN
Lives have been transformed by the gift of tongues 1Cor.12:11 reads, “All these are the work of the one and the same Spirit, and He gives them to each as he determines.” (this is the Holy Spirit) Acts 2:1-13, acts 10:44 acts 19:6 . The Bible also tells us not all will be given this gift. See 1Cor.12;30
1Cor.14 tells us a great deal about Gifts of Prophecy and Tongues.

God bless,
jean8

God bless,
jean8

 

[guanophore]

patty,
Ask your pastor if there is a Catholic Renewal group in your vicinity.
Or go to EWTN and type in Ralph Martin. He also has a group of Charismatics. This gift is given to all christians. It’s a wonderous experience. Visit n AOG if you have to.

God bless you,
jean8

Patty, please take jean8’s posts with a grain of salt, as she does not represent Catholic teaching.

I also do not recommend that you associate with any anti-Catholic community such as AOG. As valuable as I consider this gift to the believer, nurturing it is not worth abandoning the Truth for a counterfeit.

 

[guanophore]

I’m sorry to hear some do not accept the gift of tongues is for today .
If you are familiar with Ralph Martin, he is a Catholic charismatic . Look him up at EWTN
Lives have been transformed by the gift of tongues 1Cor.12:11 reads, “All these are the work of the one and the same Spirit, and He gives them to each as he determines.” (this is the Holy Spirit) Acts 2:1-13, acts 10:44 acts 19:6 . The Bible also tells us not all will be given this gift. See 1Cor.12;30
1Cor.14 tells us a great deal about Gifts of Prophecy and Tongues.

God bless,
jean8

No, jean8, no lives are transformed by charismatic gifts. Lives are transformed by the work of the Holy Spirit. This spirit gives gifts of many kinds, and brings transformation in a variety of ways. We are not to seek the gift, but the Giver!

God bless,
jean8

 

[jean8]

Here’s a notion:

‘Speaking in tongues’ is a poor description. What happened with the Apostles is that they spoke, and all their hearers perceived them as speaking to them their own language.

By the power of the Holy Spirit they communicated directly, mind to mind, and their hearers interpreted that as hearing them speak to them in Aramaic, Greek, Latin, whatever.

With the Charismatic version: What’s the good of a jabber that no-one understands? That sounds like the opposite of what happened to the Apostles.

I admit I didn’t read all the previous posts. I skimmed. So sorry if this has been said already. I propose that because an experience is in a religious setting, and makes you feel good and more religious, it doesn’t automatically follow that it’s holy.

layman,
When a person prays in tongues they are praying to God. Some people have the gift of interpretation. See 1Cor 14 for the teaching on charismatic gifts. Also 1Cor.12:30

God bless,
jean8

 

[Layman]

I’ll admit ignorance of the Charismatic movement.

[Had a quick look on Google and YouTube. Saw stuff that reminded me of what one of the nuns that used to teach me mentioned to us when I was a lad; a bit girly, post-Vatican II, singing-round-the-campfire sort of thing].

If it involves public displays of emotionalism, and abandoning your ordinary self-control, I think it’s suspect.

You get that in Voodoo and rock concerts. It might be cathartic, but is it Catholic?

I’ve read a lot of occult books, and one theme in them is that you never abandon your self-control to any being, you never let yourself go blank; you may leave yourself open to a possessing spirit.

My opinion is that the Holy Spirit came down up on the Apostles and the Virgin Mary, and that they became superior beings because of it i.e. those who saw them under its influence marveled at how eloquent they had become. Their reasoning powers increased, not decreased.

Would it be fair to say that this event prepared a hardy, rough chap like Peter to become the leader and missionary that ultimately died for his Lord, when prior to that he denied Him, and misunderstood Him?

Happy clapping, writhing around the place, speaking gibberish sounds like the opposite to what the Holy Spirit does.

I wonder would it be fair to say that there are two kinds of ‘Charism’(?) at work here; one, positive, that brings about a distinct improvement in someone that other sober, disinterested people will easily acknowledge, and one, negative, that the recipient only thinks is doing them good?

 

[tobbias88]

Frankly I believe it is demonic activity as often happened during the infamous Toronto Blessing.

When you open yourself up & call on the ‘spirit’ to come into you, an evil force rather than a benign one can easily enter in.

Barking like dogs, clucking like chickens is not remotely human and certainly not divinely-inspired. I cannot understand how people can be so naive.

Voodoo devotees & other occultists regularly call up spirits. ‘Speaking in tongues’ is just another manifestation of this. To be avoided at all costs.

 

[Lepanto]

I cannot understand how people can be so naive.

Because it allows people to “worship” in in distinctly Protestant styles (i.e., Pentecostal, Assemblies of God) without having to give up their Catholic name. It’s basically 20th-century American Protestantism with a safe, Catholic label.

 

[Joe_5859]

Because it allows people to “worship” in in distinctly Protestant styles (i.e., Pentecostal, Assemblies of God) without having to give up their Catholic name. It’s basically 20th-century American Protestantism with a safe, Catholic label.

That seems like a bit of an uncharitable spin on the whole situation. What about it makes it a distinctly “Protestant” style in the sense that it would be diametrically opposed to what Catholics should do? Just because Protestants do something does not mean ipso facto that it is something Catholics should not do.

 

[Layman]

I agree with Lepanto. When I Googled the word Charismatic, the word Pentecostal came up in the results a lot.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charismatic_movement

Looks to my cynical eyes like a way for ‘uptight’ religious people to ‘let off steam’ in a religious setting.

Y’know what put me off this as a cynical young lad being taught by nuns and brothers in Ireland in the 70’s?

It just seemed 1. Effeminate and 2. A bit weird.

So my objection isn’t wholly rational. I regret my impulse is to snigger, and walk away. I’ll admit I find female-dominated religious functions offputting.

I’m all for invoking the Holy Spirit to heal you, your loved ones, and strangers, but like any mystical ritual, you need to be careful what you are invoking, and how, and for what purpose. The form is very important.

Interesting quote on the Wikipedia page, in the Roman Catholic section:

*The Compendium to the Catechism of the Catholic Church states:

“160. What are charisms? 799-801 Charisms are special gifts of the Holy Spirit which are bestowed on individuals for the good of others, the needs of the world, and in particular for the building up of the Church. The discernment of charisms is the responsibility of the Magisterium.”*

I’d guess the key word is discernment.