Speaking in Tongues

[byzgirl]

Everyone’s entitled to an opinion,even a remote one far removed from the actual place of occurance.Were you there?No.

I was.

I am not asking you to believe,but your OPINION is quite irrelevant.Please do not be so dismissive of other people’s experiences.

I think that I opened my last e-mail by outright saying that I wasn’t trying to approve or disprove your experience…and later, that I believe in miracles and have seen the workings of the Holy Spirit in others (and in my own life).

Perhaps the Holy Spirit did ‘reach out to you’ in this instance. I’m not saying that it’s not possible (that you imagined it). I’m just asking what purpose it serves, other than to the people directly involved (if no one else can verify it). I am not speaking, specifically, but generally…about what purpose a charism (of speaking in tongues) serves the Body as a whole.

I re-state the thought that another’s “being impressed” isn’t exactly ‘buidling up the Body’ in any way beyond the “personal” and the “individual”.

I know a Charismatic, Evangelical pastor who claims that his parishioners can take (or leave) the charism of speaking in tongues. I just find that a rather useless thing. He claims it’s not necessary as a sign of one’s being ‘saved’ (by his standard of what that means)–that they are already saved by virtue of their altar call (or moment of conversion, of confessing Christ as their Lord and Savior). The baptism of the Holy Spirit, he claims, is a separate event from water baptism (which he also encourages but doesn’t see as necessary). So he has divided up baptism, into two separate events, and then added a ‘proof’ of a believer’s faith…the speaking of tongues…NONE of which is necessary (with the exception of “accepting Christ”, verbally, with a Sinner’s Prayer). Seems all very confused and rather useless. Instead of buiding up the Body, it gives everyone the idea that water baptism and even “The Baptism of the Holy Spirit” (as a separate event/2nd baptism) are optional. Sounds rather useless to the Body, to me.

 

[Soutane]

I think that I opened my last e-mail by outright saying that I wasn’t trying to approve or disprove your experience…and later, that I believe in miracles and have seen the workings of the Holy Spirit in others (and in my own life).

Perhaps the Holy Spirit did ‘reach out to you’ in this instance. I’m not saying that it’s not possible (that you imagined it). I’m just asking what purpose it serves, other than to the people directly involved (if no one else can verify it). I am not speaking, specifically, but generally…about what purpose a charism (of speaking in tongues) serves the Body as a whole.

I re-state the thought that another’s “being impressed” isn’t exactly ‘buidling up the Body’ in any way beyond the “personal” and the “individual”.

I know a Charismatic, Evangelical pastor who claims that his parishioners can take (or leave) the charism of speaking in tongues. I just find that a rather useless thing. He claims it’s not necessary as a sign of one’s being ‘saved’ (by his standard of what that means)–that they are already saved by virtue of their altar call (or moment of conversion, of confessing Christ as their Lord and Savior). The baptism of the Holy Spirit, he claims, is a separate event from water baptism (which he also encourages but doesn’t see as necessary). So he has divided up baptism, into two separate events, and then added a ‘proof’ of a believer’s faith…the speaking of tongues…NONE of which is necessary (with the exception of “accepting Christ”, verbally, with a Sinner’s Prayer). Seems all very confused and rather useless. Instead of buiding up the Body, it gives everyone the idea that water baptism and even “The Baptism of the Holy Spirit” (as a separate event/2nd baptism) are optional. Sounds rather useless to the Body, to me.

Okey-Dokey.

 

[byzgirl]

And, now for the skeptic in me…I have to admit that I don’t understand why the Holy Spirit would change venues…from actual languages (as someone previously pointed out) that were interpreted because they were actual languages.

It seems that, in the charismatic movement nowadays, that speaking in tongues is gibberish and that the interpreter interprets gibberish (and that is the miracle of the Holy Spirit).

Rather, I would be more likely to believe in such claims if someone was speaking in Italian, Greek, Latin, Aramaic, etc…
and that someone, who didn’t have ANY knowledge of other languages (besides their native English, for example) could interpret what they were saying.

That would be miraculous, and much more ‘believable’.

 

[byzgirl]

Okey-Dokey.

Not sure of your response, and what it indicates. I really don’t mean to hurt your feelings, or say that I don’t believe you, personally. I am sure that the Holy Spirit is working in your life. I may be a skeptic of the modern charismatic charism of tongues, but I am a strong believer in His gifts and their profound impact.

If I hurt your feelings…again, I apologize.

 

[Soutane]

No apology necessary

 

[ericka1701]

And, now for the skeptic in me…I have to admit that I don’t understand why the Holy Spirit would change venues…from actual languages (as someone previously pointed out) that were interpreted because they were actual languages.

It seems that, in the charismatic movement nowadays, that speaking in tongues is gibberish and that the interpreter interprets gibberish (and that is the miracle of the Holy Spirit).

Rather, I would be more likely to believe in such claims if someone was speaking in Italian, Greek, Latin, Aramaic, etc…
and that someone, who didn’t have ANY knowledge of other languages (besides their native English, for example) could interpret what they were saying.

That would be miraculous, and much more ‘believable’.

But even then, you would have to approach with caution even if it was a real language, because being able to speak languages that is unknown to the speaker is also a sign of demonic posession.

I guess I’m a bit of a skeptic when it comes to speaking in tounges , but several years ago when I was in high school, a classmate who belonged to a Pentacostal church admitted to me that she never spoke in tounges, that she pretended because she was “never baptised by the Holy Spirit”. Knowing this, I wonder, if one person can fake it, how many others have? I believe it is possible, because nothing is impossible with God, but at the same time, it would probably have to be a matter of official Church dogma before I would believe.

God Bless,
Doubting Thomas

 

[CHRISTINE77]

And, now for the skeptic in me…I have to admit that I don’t understand why the Holy Spirit would change venues…from actual languages (as someone previously pointed out) that were interpreted because they were actual languages.

It seems that, in the charismatic movement nowadays, that speaking in tongues is gibberish and that the interpreter interprets gibberish (and that is the miracle of the Holy Spirit).

Rather, I would be more likely to believe in such claims if someone was speaking in Italian, Greek, Latin, Aramaic, etc…
and that someone, who didn’t have ANY knowledge of other languages (besides their native English, for example) could interpret what they were saying.

That would be miraculous, and much more ‘believable’.

Here’s an article on it.

bible.org/page.php?page_id=393

 

[byzgirl]

But even then, you would have to approach with caution even if it was a real language, because being able to speak languages that is unknown to the speaker is also a sign of demonic posession.

I guess I’m a bit of a skeptic when it comes to speaking in tounges , but several years ago when I was in high school, a classmate who belonged to a Pentacostal church admitted to me that she never spoke in tounges, that she pretended because she was “never baptised by the Holy Spirit”. Knowing this, I wonder, if one person can fake it, how many others have? I believe it is possible, because nothing is impossible with God, but at the same time, it would probably have to be a matter of official Church dogma before I would believe.

God Bless,
Doubting Thomas

Hi Thomas,

I would have to guess that there are many out there that do the same. After all, it’s a sign of a special blessing. As I pointed out, the charismatic pastor I know, makes it a point to encourage his parishioners to ‘try it out’. Those that don’t, probably feel a bit of pressure of sense of being left out, when they choose to leave the gift.

And what happens when the venture into the ‘holy spirit revival meeting’…are they a bit tempted to ‘fake it’ just so that they CAN fit in? I’m sure it’s likely to happen a lot. After all, with all the pumped up shouting, music, and hype…

If it’s the SIGN of someone’s being specially ‘annointed’ (the new Evangelical word of the day)…then you’d feel pretty dopey to be the only one standing there looking stupid (and not as ‘holy’ or ‘righteous’ as the next guy speaking gibberish)…

I witnessed some tongue speaking once, as a young child, and I was not impressed. I remember thinking to myself (as young as I was) “These people are talking nonsense…I could do that!” I didn’t, because I suddenly felt very Catholic (and glad to be).

It wasn’t something that imparted the idea that “I wanted to have that gift”…but, let me out of here!

But I imagine, those that are part of that sort of church community, see it as a sign of holiness…and don’t want to be the odd man out.

 

[Ghoti]

And, now for the skeptic in me…
Rather, I would be more likely to believe in such claims if someone was speaking in Italian, Greek, Latin, Aramaic, etc…
and that someone, who didn’t have ANY knowledge of other languages (besides their native English, for example) could interpret what they were saying.

That would be miraculous, and much more ‘believable’.

How about subtitles? That would impress me.

To me…and I’m speaking generally, not to anyone’s experience…it seems to me too open to abuse. One person stands up and goes “----insert not-understandable words here—” and someone else says, “What he means is, ‘—insert translation—’”…that’s very close to private revelation, yes? We have to take someone’s word that 1. the first person is actually speaking in tongues, and 2. the second person can translate accurately. We have to believe that neither is feigning, or pretending, or might even even sincere but caught up in hysteria…

I think “speaking in tongues” should be investigated by the local ordinary, same as visions or apparitions.

 

[byzgirl]

How about subtitles? That would impress me.

To me…and I’m speaking generally, not to anyone’s experience…it seems to me too open to abuse. One person stands up and goes “----insert not-understandable words here—” and someone else says, “What he means is, ‘—insert translation—’”…that’s very close to private revelation, yes? We have to take someone’s word that 1. the first person is actually speaking in tongues, and 2. the second person can translate accurately. We have to believe that neither is feigning, or pretending, or might even even sincere but caught up in hysteria…

I think “speaking in tongues” should be investigated by the local ordinary, same as visions or apparitions.

I agree.

Here’s another question which seems very important here: Why is it, among charismatic circles, that THIS PARTICULAR charism is the one so widespread? Isn’t it the Holy Spirit’s decision, and not ours?

I don’t mean to come across as a typical hard-lined, unbelieving skeptic. I am actually a very passionate, emotional, miracle-believing person. I just am not convinced that the Holy Spirit chooses the same gift for all the people gathered.

I feel that the Holy Spirit uses individuals, to build up the Church, based on their natural abilities and talents.
And they can be used, by God, in miraculous ways, if we are open to Him.

I also believe that He uses supernatural charisms, witnessed by His Saints. Even among them, the gifts were very unique to the individual–and to their specific calling and witness for God.

I just don’t always think that a group of people can call the Holy Spirit down…and force the gift to be given to all gathered, across the board. It would seem, as I have said before, to serve no purpose than to those gathered.

The proof of the Saint’s charism’s wasn’t the charism’s themselves, but the holiness of the lives they led. No one would even know about their charisms (other than direct witnesses) if it weren’t for God’s wish for their notoriety (becoming known to all, as an example). In other words, it was the Holy Spirit that led the “Little Flower” into the eyes of the Church, as a Saint, to become canonized and so popular today. It was God’s wish that this be so. Secondary to that, would be any of her charisms…which were sign of that holiness…but not the whole enchilada.

I don’t know if this is making sense of not…but I just can’t see that large groups of people can all recieve the very same gift. I think God uses us, uniquely.

It just appears to me, that within charismatic pentecostal circles, the desire for charism plays more importance than does any true holiness of that event. I have always loved the serenity and sacredness, the real and genuine lives of the saints…lived out from day to day. I’m just not as comfortable with tent revival-meetings reminiscent of Pentecostals and folks like Kathryn Kuhlman and others (all the very good motivators with cadillacs and furs), bringin’ down the Spirit…

 

[BlestOne]

Okay so some folks claim to speak in tongues; are there folks who can intrepret tongues? I’m asking because I’ve never heard of any.

I went to a Charismatic prayer service at my parish once that was run the right way and yes there were people there to interpret… I might add that it wasn’t gibberish that they were speaking… I could tell at the ripe old age of 12 that it was a Slavic language that I was hearing from one person but I was unsure of the other person I heard…

The Bible does give strict guidelines about speaking in tongues… only 3-4 at a session, always an interpreter, etc…

Now on the other hand… my ds1 was dating a girl from a Vineyard Church once… she would spout off gibberish that sounded like baby talk… and her sister would interpret… it was sooo bogus! a language that only your sister understands??? I was glad when the “spirit” told her to break up with my son!!!

 

[byzgirl]

I was glad when the “spirit” told her to break up with my son!!!

:bigyikes: big whew! there…

 

[Soutane]

When the apostles spoke in tongues at Pentacost, they were speaking real languages, because all the foreigners around them could understand them. I don’t know how speaking in tongues morphed into speaking in gibberish.

I have subsequently consulted with someone who was at the same healing mass that I attended where the young man spoke in a language that I did not recognize,and where a woman interpreted for them.

This man is convinced that the young man was speaking a Native Canadian language,most likely Mohawk.To me it sounded like properly cadenced speech albeit one that I heretofore did not recognise,but most certainly was not the gibberish that perhaps some may associate with Pentecostal eclasial bodies .

 

[CHRISTINE77]

I have subsequently consulted with someone who was at the same healing mass that I attended where the young man spoke in a language that I did not recognize,and where a woman interpreted for them.

This man is convinced that the young man was speaking a Native Canadian language,most likely Mohawk.To me it sounded like properly cadenced speech albeit one that I heretofore did not recognise,but most certainly was not the gibberish that perhaps some may associate with Pentecostal eclasial bodies .

Well that sounds more interesting. But really, I think there are two kinds of speaking in tongues in the Bible. One is speaking a foreign language, but Paul seems to say there is another kind of speaking in tongues that is not any language. So I don’t really understand.

 

[byzgirl]

Sorry for ‘butting’ in, but doesn’t that sound a lot like heresay?
We have to take their word for it, afterall.

It would seem possible that there are people in attendance who actually ‘do know’ other languages, and would just start spouting them (or the few phrases they know). I know enough phrases in Croatian, that I could do that too. Doesnt’ mean that it’s Holy Spirit derived.

By the way, if these interpreters actually hear messages from God (I mean “WOW!”) then why is the message always so vague and why are the interpreters like “I think he was speaking…in Mohawk or some indian dialect from Canada…” How would one know that anyhow, unless they knew the language or a similar one? And what are these ‘tongue speakers’ saying, in detail? Praise God? Holy, Holy, Holy? Amen? Alleluia?

 

[CHRISTINE77]

Sorry for ‘butting’ in, but doesn’t that sound a lot like heresay?
We have to take their word for it, afterall.

It would seem possible that there are people in attendance who actually ‘do know’ other languages, and would just start spouting them (or the few phrases they know). I know enough phrases in Croatian, that I could do that too. Doesnt’ mean that it’s Holy Spirit derived.

By the way, if these interpreters actually hear messages from God (I mean “WOW!”) then why is the message always so vague and why are the interpreters like “I think he was speaking…in Mohawk or some indian dialect from Canada…” How would one know that anyhow, unless they knew the language or a similar one? And what are these ‘tongue speakers’ saying, in detail? Praise God? Holy, Holy, Holy? Amen? Alleluia?

Maybe he wasn’t speaking in tongues. Maybe he was just praying in Mohawk. (I get your cynicsm though - but hey, maybe there is something to it!)

 

[byzgirl]

Maybe he wasn’t speaking in tongues. Maybe he was just praying in Mohawk. (I get your cynicsm though - but hey, maybe there is something to it!)

I don’t know, but it sure sounds like a confusing ‘event’ (charismatic tongue-speaking gathering). I’m still a skeptic to the whole scenario. It just doesn’t seem like it produces much faith for others (besides those in attendance)…and for all we know, those in attendance, are assisting each other in ‘false shows’. How would we know?

I am not familiar with the charismatic movement within Catholicism. And I wouldn’t necessarily thumb my nose at their Liturgical style (if in keeping with the Church/canon law) nor their Evangelical outreach programs, etc. However, the pentecostal ‘tongue-speaking’ just seems unnecessary. I’m all for enthusiasm and zeal, but I think it’s just too centered on particular individuals, and not enough to ‘bolster the entire Body of Christ’.

I think it’s too ripe for fakery and showmanship than real, authentic, Catholic spirituality.

That’s just an opinion.

 

[Soutane]

I don’t know, but it sure sounds like a confusing ‘event’ (charismatic tongue-speaking gathering). I’m still a skeptic to the whole scenario. It just doesn’t seem like it produces much faith for others (besides those in attendance)…and for all we know, those in attendance, are assisting each other in ‘false shows’. How would we know?

I am not familiar with the charismatic movement within Catholicism. And I wouldn’t necessarily thumb my nose at their Liturgical style (if in keeping with the Church/canon law) nor their Evangelical outreach programs, etc. However, the pentecostal ‘tongue-speaking’ just seems unnecessary. I’m all for enthusiasm and zeal, but I think it’s just too centered on particular individuals, and not enough to ‘bolster the entire Body of Christ’.

I think it’s too ripe for fakery and showmanship than real, authentic, Catholic spirituality.

That’s just an opinion.

And in all kindness please be so gracious as to remember that is ONLY your opinion.In no place did I say that this was definitely an authentic gift of tongues.I was asked a question.I answered it.I clarified it.

Please do not assume or presume that you are the ultimate arbeiter as to what is authentic or not.At least be open to the POSSIBILTY that it was a true exercise of the Charism.Don’t be like those cynical people who believe that miracles JUST DON"T HAPPEN ANYMORE.

Nobody believed the children at Fatima in the beginning either.And no I’m NOT equating this to Fatima.

 

[JamesG]

I would bet that if you went into one of these Tongues sessions and spoke gibberish that many people around you would claim that they can understand you.

Furthermore, what are the chances that by speaking gibberish that you actually speak a few words of some language or another? I would submit that the odds are very high considering there are over 6800 different languages in the world.

I think people who speak in tongues this way are no different then people who believe in ESP, Remote Viewing, etc…

God doesn’t expect us to drop all sense of rational thought. In fact he gave us a rational mind so that we could identify him. Taking gibberish is not one of them.

People might claim that it brings them closer to God, but bible says very clearly that speaking in tongues is not for believers it is for unbelievers. It will not bring you closer to God.

If you really want to be closer to God then say, “Jesus son of the living God have mercy on me a sinner” 1000 times. Then when you are done say it 10,000 times. When you do that say it 100,000 times. Then 1 million… until every word and action of yours is a prayer in itself.

 

[CHRISTINE77]

I would bet that if you went into one of these Tongues sessions and spoke gibberish that many people around you would claim that they can understand you.

Furthermore, what are the chances that by speaking gibberish that you actually speak a few words of some language or another? I would submit that the odds are very high considering there are over 6800 different languages in the world.

I think people who speak in tongues this way are no different then people who believe in ESP, Remote Viewing, etc…

God doesn’t expect us to drop all sense of rational thought. In fact he gave us a rational mind so that we could identify him. Taking gibberish is not one of them.

People might claim that it brings them closer to God, but bible says very clearly that speaking in tongues is not for believers it is for unbelievers. It will not bring you closer to God.

If you really want to be closer to God then say, “Jesus son of the living God have mercy on me a sinner” 1000 times. Then when you are done say it 10,000 times. When you do that say it 100,000 times. Then 1 million… until every word and action of yours is a prayer in itself.

This explantion of pentacostal churches and the Gift of Tongues is really good:

Pentecostal churches teach that Christians receive the Holy Spirit when they are first converted, but that they are not filled with the Spirit until they are baptized with the Spirit. This baptism of the Spirit is not considered necessary for salvation, but people are encouraged to seek it in order to receive additional power to witness.

Spirit-baptism, Pentecostals believe, always includes speaking in tongues. Therefore, those who desire Spirit-baptism will seek to experience tongue-speaking. This is often done in a “tarry meeting” (tarry, an old English word meaning “wait,” is found in the King James Version of Luke 24:49). The group holds a prolonged meeting, singing and praying and dancing. Emotions are kept high. The person seeking the “baptism” is encouraged to speak rapidly, to repeat words or syllables over and over, to continue in vocal activity until the tongue-speaking happens.

The environment of a tarry meeting encourages ecstatic speech as such, but not a genuine biblical gift of tongues. In such an environment, tongue-speaking can become merely a learned behavior. The organs of speech continue to work, but the conscious control of them fades.

There is no biblical support for the practice of tarry meetings. Jesus encouraged his disciples to pray with meaningful words, not thoughtless, repeated words (Matthew 6:7). In the tongue-speaking incidents recorded in the book of Acts, the gift of the Spirit came unexpectedly. No one was getting emotionally worked up. The gift of tongues is given as God determines (1 Corinthians 12:7-11).

If we need the Holy Spirit and its gifts to do God’s work, God will provide it (Luke 11:13).

Modern attempts to imitate the tongues of Pentecost are attempts to imitate only one of the miracles of that day. The real lesson of Pentecost is not in the miracles, but in Peter’s message: “Repent and be baptized…in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit” (Acts 2:38).

Loosening the tongue does not necessarily require a miracle, but loosening the heart in real repentance does.

Whoever believes, repents and is baptized will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. No further steps or tarry meetings are needed.

FROM: wcg.org/lit/booklets/tongues/tongues1.htm