Speaking in Tongues

[Catholicc]

Prayer and praise is fantastic. But babbling a bunch of mumbo jumbo and calling it tounges is not

The problem with your comparison is that Latin is a REAL LANGUAGE. But with your “tounges”, there is no telling if its an authentic miracle or just a bunch of noise, and the odds are that its the latter rather than the former

 

[guanophore]

In the best case, the modern understanding of “speaking in tongues” is not a miraculous phenomenon, but a psychological one.

I disagree. While the Spirit does work through the psyche, the Source of the gift is not in onself, but it is from God.

I think this description applies better to those that are faking it, or whatever “noise” they are doing.

That is, it is a matter of separation of one’s emotion and intellect and using only one’s emotion.

Although it is possible to pray in the spirit without engaging the mind, the Source is not “emotion”. While one may feel emotion, one does not necessarily. The Spirit exists separately from both intellect and emotion.

As such, it would strictly be limited to prayers of adoration. That is, it really can’t be used for prayers of confession, thanksgiving, or supplication, since all of those are inherently intellectual in nature (we have to know what it is we are confessing, saying thanks for, or asking for).

I agree that adoration is a central focus, however, it is not the only one. These other types of prayer do not necessarily require intellect either.

If you have ever prayed for others, and did not know what their needs were, but desired that God meet their needs, then such a prayer can be made in this fashion. God knows the desires of the heart, even without the formulation in the intellect of words.

Of course, I would make the argument that it is always more effective to pray with more of one’s self rather than less, so praying with one’s intellect AND emotions is more effective than using only one’s emotions.

And a case can be made for getting both the emotions and the intellect out of the way, so that the Spirit can pray through one without impediment.

 

[guanophore]

The problem with your comparison is that Latin is a REAL LANGUAGE. But with your “tounges”, there is no telling if its an authentic miracle or just a bunch of noise, and **the odds are **that its the latter rather than the former

Is that so? It seems like you are deriving your “odds” from your observations on the abuse of the Gift. Even Paul did not devalue the gift because it was misused. He never said it was just “babble” or insult those misusing it in any way. He just gave them instructions on how to exercise more discipline.

 

[MariaG]

byzgirl:
**Right. It wasn’t my comparison…another person on the forum made the claim that the defense of Marian DOCTRINES was the same thing as the defense of charisms (I guess, that they exist). I do not doubt that charisms exist and that the Holy Spirit does not bestow them. I understand that all Christians are, by God’s grace, charismatic. I’m not debating that. The difference, of which I responded with, is that all Catholics must believe and defend, if necessary, the Church’s doctrines. Marian doctrines are distinctly Catholic (the Orthodox Church is the only one that comes close to us in the honor of Mary–, and even so, I don’t think that they maintain all of the same doctrines that the Catholic Church has made part of the deposit of faith, regarding the Mother of God). **

No, I did not. Post #45 clearly states it is SIMILAR. Nor did I say it was about defense of Marian DOCTRINES. I am still catching up to the thread but have to correct blatant misrepresentations about my posts when I read them even if someone else has already done so.

I brought up a subject, Mary, that is frequently misunderstood by Protestants. The wealth of discussions about Mary sometimes leads Protestants to misunderstand and think that defense of a subject equals focus, or too much focus.

post 45
Respectfully, this is similar to non-Catholics who think there is too much emphasis about Mary. Since there is controversy, there is alot of apologetics/discussions about Mary. This can give the incorrect impression that Catholics place too much emphasis on Mary, when in fact, Catholics are just trying to give out CORRECT imformation about Catholic beliefs of Mary, defend her etc.

The charasmatic Catholic movement sometimes gets reduced to tongues because it is the controversial aspect of the movement that charasmatic Catholics feel the need to defend.

 

[MariaG]

I heard some recent ones on EWTN. Apparently South America is the worst, where they are jumping ship in droves to the evangelical missions.

These are Charismatic Catholics, right?

What is being done to help stop this and bring them back? I haven’t a clue as to the situation in South America, and how the Church functions there, but this is very upsetting.

What a shame.

If this question was already answered, I apologize.

No. These are just plain old Catholics who are being drawn away, not charasmatic Catholics.

 

[MariaG]

No, I did not. Post #45 clearly states it is SIMILAR. Nor did I say it was about defense of Marian DOCTRINES. I am still catching up to the thread but have to correct blatant misrepresentations about my posts when I read them even if someone else has already done so.

I brought up a subject, Mary, that is frequently misunderstood by Protestants. The wealth of discussions about Mary sometimes leads Protestants to misunderstand and think that defense of a subject equals focus, or too much focus.

As I have read further, I see maybe it is not so much a blatant misrepresentation as not very careful reading?

 

[jean8]

claire0202:
claire,
I assure you that speaking in tongues is a gift from the Holy Spirit. You can read about thid in Acts 2,10:44 This gift was first given to the Jewish Christians in the early church.

In 1901 a woman named Agnus Ozman was the first woman to speak in tongues. She was married to a Pentecostal preacher.
When this occured people from all over the world came to the USA to find out more about this blessing.

Alex Jones a former Pentcostal appeared on EWTN and related this story. Go to www.ewtn.org and ask about this story.
btw, I speak in tongues. it’s real. I am truly blessed. It turned my life around.don’t be doubtful about the gifts of the Holy Spirit.
See 1Cor.12:3,11.13. Also please read 1Cor.14 it teaches the Gifts of Prophecy and Tongues.

God bless you,
jean8

 

[guanophore]

,
I assure you that speaking in tongues is a gift from the Holy Spirit. You can read about thid in Acts 2,10:44 This gift was first given to the Jewish Christians in the early church.

In 1901 a woman named Agnus Ozman was the first woman to speak in tongues. She was married to a Pentecostal preacher.
When this occured people from all over the world came to the USA to find out more about this blessing.
Tongues.

God bless you,
jean8

Well, both things cannot be true, jean. Either it is a gift that was given to the early church, or Agnus was the first.

The gift of tongues has been active in the Church since Pentecost. Agnus may be the “first” of something, but she was by no means the first woman to speak in tongues. Such an assertion is absurd.

 

[coco2]

How can so many of the faithful question a gift of the Holy Spirit? Many here are uncomfortable with this gift ( and make no mistake, it is a gift), because it is out of their control. And you know how much we like to be in control.

The most interesting account I have read of speaking in tongues was one written by a young woman in Rwanda who was hiding for many weeks in a small bathroom with several other women from their Hutu neighbors who were slaughtering everyone in sight. She said that she prayed every second and soon she was only aware of being in God’s presence. It was at this time that she began praying in tongues. She didn’t even know anything about speaking in tongues prior to this, so she was not praying for it, yet God chose to give this gift to her. Obviously, this was to help strengthen her in some way. Could speaking in tongues be prayer that God knows need to be spoken; prayer that we are incapable of without assistance from the Spirit?

I don’t claim to understand it all, but I do know that it clearly states in the Bible that speaking in tongues is a gift of the Spirit, therefore, it is good.

 

[claire0202]

coco2 wrote
Could speaking in tongues be prayer that God knows need to be spoken; prayer that we are incapable of without assistance from the Spirit?

I would like to endorse this. I have a niece who suffers from an epileptic type illness & consequential learning difficulties. I took her to Lourdes. Neither she nor I knew anything about tongues but on coming out of the baths she started singing in a strange language. A few days after returning to Uk she rang me and said "Every time I start to pray, that funny language I had in Lourdes starts coming. I did not know what to say so i just said “God knows you have difficulty with words & remembering things. He is saying don’t worry i know what you want/need to say & I am giving you the prayers to say.” She accepted this. It no longer worried her and has enhanced her prayer life. Meanwhile I began to learn about tongues but it was four years before I too was given the gift and indeed it is a gift but just as at Christmas one person may love their present & have asked for it, another may think “Who would want that?” Hopefully they would keep their thoughts to themselves for fear of hurting both the recipient and the giver. I do not understand why people feel the need to rubbish the gift of tongues just because someone else has it and they do not want it.

 

[coco2]

claire, Do you know if you are going to pray in tongues when you start to pray, or does it just occur?

 

[guanophore]

claire, Do you know if you are going to pray in tongues when you start to pray, or does it just occur?

I know this was not addressed to me but I would like to respond. Sometimes it just wells up from the inside, spontaneous. Sometimes I will myself to pray. It is as if there is a faucet. The Spirit is always there and ready, and the faucet can be off or on. I think this is part of what St. Paul meant when he wrote “quench not the Spirit”. We should not keep the faucet turned off.

 

[catholic_daddy]

I disagree. While the Spirit does work through the psyche, the Source of the gift is not in onself, but it is from God.

I think this description applies better to those that are faking it, or whatever “noise” they are doing.

Although it is possible to pray in the spirit without engaging the mind, the Source is not “emotion”. While one may feel emotion, one does not necessarily. The Spirit exists separately from both intellect and emotion.

I agree that adoration is a central focus, however, it is not the only one. These other types of prayer do not necessarily require intellect either.

If you have ever prayed for others, and did not know what their needs were, but desired that God meet their needs, then such a prayer can be made in this fashion. God knows the desires of the heart, even without the formulation in the intellect of words.

And a case can be made for getting both the emotions and the intellect out of the way, so that the Spirit can pray through one without impediment.

Maybe this was already addressed, but what is the purpose of speaking in tongues?

 

[guanophore]

Maybe this was already addressed, but what is the purpose of speaking in tongues?

There are many. If you read the thread, and follow the links provided you will find answers to this question.

All the gifts of the Spirit are for the building up of the Body of Christ.

 

[catholic_daddy]

I agree with much of what you said here. My only thought is that when people speak in tongues (gibberish like) they are mocking the holy spirit.

I also think that since sins against the holy spirit are not forgiven then people should be more carefull.

Correction…there is only one sin that is unforgiveable–blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.

 

[catholic_daddy]

Here’s an article on it.

bible.org/page.php?page_id=393

I’ve studied the Bible on this subject for years, including analyzing the Greek, and the article whcih that link takes you to is as good and as thorough a discussion of it as I have ever seen.

 

[guanophore]

I’ve studied the Bible on this subject for years, including analyzing the Greek, and the article whcih that link takes you to is as good and as thorough a discussion of it as I have ever seen.

This is a shame, as the article is full of errors.

If you really are a Catholicdaddy, I recommend that you accept the Catholic teaching on this matter, rather than those who have separated themselves from the Apostolic Faith.

 

[catholic_daddy]

This is a shame, as the article is full of errors.

If you really are a Catholicdaddy, I recommend that you accept the Catholic teaching on this matter, rather than those who have separated themselves from the Apostolic Faith.

I can take you point by point through the reasons why it is the explanation most faithful to the scriptural material. What parts of it do you think are significant and incorrect?

 

[catholic_daddy]

This is a shame, as the article is full of errors.

If you really are a Catholicdaddy, I recommend that you accept the Catholic teaching on this matter, rather than those who have separated themselves from the Apostolic Faith.

My daddy was catholic, actually.

 

[BRB1]

Hello.

I was raised in both baptist + pentecostal faiths.

I have seen “interpreters” in pentecostal (and other non-denominational tongues churches) translate what’s being said.

At Pentecost, those filled with H.S. were speaking in valid languages … understood by those Jews who lived abroad, and had a learned understanding thereof.

What I’ve heard at Protestant services … doesn’t seem to fit what happened @ the Church’s inception.

Paul claimed the gift, but put other gifts he had far above tongues.

I do think praying aloud, in the spirit, is valid. But, I’m not sure its the same process that happened in the First Century Church.