Speaking in Tongues

[heiscominginthe]

Jesus gave His authority to His apostles, and they to their successors. They do not do anything that is contrary to the scriptures. If it seems to you that they contradict, it is because you don’t understand one, the other, or both. From reading your posts, I surmise it is the latter.

If it cannot be backed by scripture, it has no validity. As for understanding, it comes by way of that spirit of truth known as the Holy Ghost. What I post will be backed by the Word of God.

As far as the CC doing nothing contrary, by adding to the Word of God, they do err. It does not say anywhere that a child is to be baptized. It does not say anywhere that when a man is baptized in water, he is baptized into the church. It does not say anywhere that when a man is baptized in water he is baptized into the church.

It is the baptism of blood by faith in God’s only begotten Son that a man is baptized into the family of God. Romans 6

It is this baptism all must have to be of the family of God. Eph. 4:5

 

[heiscominginthe]

You are right. What it does say is that such a person may fail to attain salvation.

The CC changed how the baptisms were to be administered and it was that time the Holy Spirit was quenched in the church.]/quote]

I expect you need to believe this fiction so that you can support your rebellion against the Church founded by Christ. It is a good thing it is not true, because if it were, there would be no NT from which you base your erroneous accusation.

 

[guanophore]

Unscriptural…

I can understand how it could seem that way to you, being separated from the Apostolic Succession. If you are willing to explore the history of your faith, you will find that the Apostles never separated the HS from the baptismal waters, from the time that Christ entered them and joined the two.

 

[guanophore]

If it cannot be backed by scripture, it has no validity. As for understanding, it comes by way of that spirit of truth known as the Holy Ghost. What I post will be backed by the Word of God.

Such a statement is based upon the error that all that the Apostles taught about Christianity is contained in the bible.

As far as the CC doing nothing contrary, by adding to the Word of God, they do err.

You are in a bad fix, then, since the CC added the ENTIRE NEW TESTAMENT!

It does not say anywhere that a child is to be baptized.

It does not say anywhere not to baptize them either, but it does say “suffer the little children to come unto me, and hinder them not, for of such is the Kingdom”. The Apostles understood that baptism replaced circumcision as the initiation rite into the Kingdom. Soon after the Apostles, the arguement was not about whether infants should be baptized, as this was done, but whether or not it proper to wait the 8 days as they did for circumcision. When you examine the early church documents, it is clear that theApostles and their successors baptized infants.

It does not say anywhere that when a man is baptized in water, he is baptized into the church.

I think you need a new thread for this. It is as off topic here as it is off base!

1 Cor 12:13
13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body - Jews or Greeks, slaves or free - and all were made to drink of one Spirit.

Being baptized is what brings one into the Body of Christ. It is the New Birth, of Water and Spirit.

Gal 3:27
27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

When we become attached to the Head, we automatically become members of the Body.

Eph 4:4-6
4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call, 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 one God and Father of us all, who is above all and through all and in all.

Baptism brings us into the One Body, by the One Spirit. There is no difference between the One Body, and the Church.

Col 1:18
18 He is the head of the body, the church;

It does not say anywhere that when a man is baptized in water he is baptized into the church.

The Apostles never separated the two.

Acts 22:14-16
14 And he said, ‘The God of our fathers appointed you to know his will, to see the Just One and to hear a voice from his mouth; 15 for you will be a witness for him to all men of what you have seen and heard. 16 And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on his name.’

Baptism washes away sins. Why? Because the HS cleanses us from all sin, by His Blood.

It is the baptism of blood by faith in God’s only begotten Son that a man is baptized into the family of God. Romans 6

It is this baptism all must have to be of the family of God. Eph. 4:5

The reason this is written in Rom 6 and Eph. is because it is Catholic. There is nothing in scripture that is not Catholic, because it was written by, for, and about Catholics.

 

[humble_in_doubt]

I think all Christians should speak in tongues … publicly even (so us heathens can get a good laugh).

 

[grannymh]

I think all Christians should speak in tongues … publicly even (so us heathens can get a good laugh).

How about if I pray in prayer tongues for you during my hour of adoring the Real Presence of Jesus Christ in the Catholic Eucharist at 2:00 AM, Tuesday.

Blessings,
granny

All human life is worthy of profound respect.

 

[humble_in_doubt]

How about if I pray in prayer tongues for you during my hour of adoring the Real Presence of Jesus Christ in the Catholic Eucharist at 2:00 AM, Tuesday.

Blessings,
granny

All human life is worthy of profound respect.

go ahead … let’s see if it works

I wonder, if my buddy told me that he had an incredibly vivid dream last night about a ladder going up to heaven, what would I say? I think I would probably wonder what he smoked before going to bed; but back in the old days they would invent an entire religion.

 

[guanophore]

How about if I pray in prayer tongues for you during my hour of adoring the Real Presence of Jesus Christ in the Catholic Eucharist at 2:00 AM, Tuesday.

Blessings,
granny

All human life is worthy of profound respect.

How about that? I will join you!

 

[guanophore]

If it is fiction that I write then please disprove it. For if it is of man, it can be debunked, but if of God it cannot be disproven.

Sorry, heis, but it is impossible to prove a negative. One cannot disprove a fiction. We cannot “prove” that what history and experience demonstrate is not true.

The burden is upon you to “prove” that what history and experience has demonstrate is NOT true.

It is easy to sit back in your chair claiming what I believe in, which was given of the Holy Spirit is fiction.

You are right. It is easy to prove, as we sit back in the chair, that what you are claiming to believe, what you think is given of the HS, is fiction.

It is easy because history is there to demonstrate that what you believe is false. It is also easy to prove this because Jesus gave the HS to the Church, and promised that He would lead the Church into all truth. You seem to believe that this promise was given to you, apart from the Church founded by Christ. What hubris!

It is a dangerous path you tread.

Today is the feast of St. Martin. He gave his life for the faith. There is no more dangerous path than giving one’s life for one’s faith. Thousands had given their lives for that same faith before St. Martin.

As for rebellion, just because my stand is not of the CC, it will always look to you as rebellion.

Not necessarily. Most are oppositional to the apostolic teaching because they are ignorant of it. Once one is made aware, ignorance is set aside, and one enters the realm of willful defiance.

Yet, I say to you, believe in God, believe in his Word. See for yourself the Word of God. Seek the face of the Lord and depart from the doctrines of men.

It is very Catholic of you to say this!

The “doctrines of men” did not cease from the first century. They entered unexplored realms in the Reformation. Since that time, the doctrines of men, beginning with the error of Sola Scriptura, have exponentiated.

 

[humble_in_doubt]

How about that? I will join you!

hey you guys can all pray for me … if I’m on here in a few days preaching Jesus then that would be a pretty good indication it’s true?

However, smart money would bet that I’ll still be an atheist next week

 

[guanophore]

go ahead … let’s see if it works

I wonder, if my buddy told me that he had an incredibly vivid dream last night about a ladder going up to heaven, what would I say? I think I would probably wonder what he smoked before going to bed; but back in the old days they would invent an entire religion.

humble, God created man. He created man so that He could have fellowship with man.

He created man in such a manner that He could reveal Himself to man through dreams, visions, and other experiences.

God is not an “invented religion”, but the Creator of all that we know. He has ordained that we can know Him, as we are made in His image and likeness.

 

[guanophore]

hey you guys can all pray for me … if I’m on here in a few days preaching Jesus then that would be a pretty good indication it’s true?

However, smart money would bet that I’ll still be an atheist next week

Absolutely! I pray for all those that visit here. This is part of the duty of a forum supporter. However, no, your coming here to “preach Jesus” is not necessarily an indication that anything you say is true. Many believe they are “preaching Jesus” and do not. I just met a woman at the Greyhound bus center the other day that was preaching Jesus. Some of the thing she said were true. However, her life and her mannerism were not consistent with Christ.

 

[wildjmp]

I am pointing out that individuals who dissent from the Church teaching do not define Truth. This is the duty of the Church. Those who dissent from it have departed from the Apostolic faith.

Abuses of all kinds can, and do, occur during authentic Catholic Masses. Most of them do not invalidate the Mass.

Perhaps the Pentecostal movement, having left the authority appointed by Christ, expereinces the worst abuses. They seem like the Church in Corinth, which was grossly outof order.

This difference is that the Church cannot err in faith and morals. When you question or deny the teaching of the Church, you are calling Jesus a liar.

To question abusive practices is, as you say,t he responsibility of all Catholics. To devalue or deny the Teaching of the Church, though, becuase some do not follow it, is inappropriate.

No, that sin was created by the Evil One himself. You are just standing in a long tradition. Remember what the detractors said on Pentecost? “Are they drunk with wine?”

From the very beginning, the Spiritual Gifts were maligned and misused. This not a new invention.

I agree. But it does not make the gifts themselves less authentic.
wildjmp;5037364:

Again, I don’t believe the Holy Spirit would be having people do what charismatics say/do./quote]

It is your perogative to reject the Teachings of the Church. God has ordained that humans should have free will, and may reject all of His gifts.

You have made yourself the Pope! congratulations, your holiness.

Yes, this is correct. When we are baptized, we are sealed with the HS, and any and all gifts that God chooses to manifest are accessible to us. All have the potential of the gift of tongues, due to their baptsim.

I really think you need to read my comments again and then respond. I’m saying that from a traditional perspective (which has authority) the past few popes have ignored it and instead have been overly ecumenical. Allowing for the new mass to become less Catholic and allowing many times protestant beliefs to overcome our own. One of these introductions is the renewal I’m trying to talk about here. And no, I don’t think any of my comments I’ve insisted on my being equal to a pope. I’m telling you that from my prayers to the holy spirit etc. I DO NOT feel that this movement is good and is not Catholic. Instead, it’s an abomination and separating. Charismatics are equal to Pentecostals.
Again, from what I was taught and believe from my church is that we don’t believe is the charismatic movement. Pentecost “tongues” were languages spoken of the day and they were given to spread the Word all over. And that’s about it, not I can speak a special heavenly language with the angels, there’s no point unless you have a message to give others.

 

[heiscominginthe]

I can understand how it could seem that way to you, being separated from the Apostolic Succession. If you are willing to explore the history of your faith, you will find that the Apostles never separated the HS from the baptismal waters, from the time that Christ entered them and joined the two.

Show me one place in the bible where it does not say to water baptize in the name of Jesus.

Show me one place where it says that water washes away sin, and blood does not.

Explain to me the difference between being baptized into Christ and being baptized in the name of Christ.

 

[heiscominginthe]

Sorry, heis, but it is impossible to prove a negative. One cannot disprove a fiction. We cannot “prove” that what history and experience demonstrate is not true.

Fiction is very easy to disprove. It is torn assunder by the Word of God.

Acts 5: 38 And now I say unto you, Refrain from these men, and let them alone: for if this counsel or this work be of men, it will come to nought: 39 But if it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it; lest haply ye be found even to fight against God.

Romans 16:16 Salute one another with an holy kiss. The churches of Christ salute you.
17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them. 18 For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.

2 Tim. 2:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. 3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; 4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. 5 But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry.

 

[heiscominginthe]

The reason this is written in Rom 6 and Eph. is because it is Catholic. There is nothing in scripture that is not Catholic, because it was written by, for, and about Catholics.

Firstly, Romans 6 and Eph 4:5 pertain to salvation which is the baptism a man must have to be of the family of God. This baptism is through the blood of Christ, not water, baptizing a man into Christ, not in the name of Christ which is water baptism.

As for scripture being catholic, you could not be more wrong. Do not mistake catholic with christian.

Catholic means universal period.

Christian is the name the early believers called themselves when they were born again, born into Christ through his blood.

It is his blood that washes our sins, not water. Water is symbolic of the baptism that saves the soul of a man from eternal death.

 

[grannymh]

hey you guys can all pray for me … if I’m on here in a few days preaching Jesus then that would be a pretty good indication it’s true?

However, smart money would bet that I’ll still be an atheist next week

My Mother didn’t raise any dumb children. I’ll bet my money that you will still be an atheist next week. And I will continue to pray for you and for a very good atheist friend of mine in prayer tongues.

Good thoughts to you,
granny

Every human life is special.

 

[guanophore]

I really think you need to read my comments again and then respond. I’m saying that from a traditional perspective (which has authority) the past few popes have ignored it and instead have been overly ecumenical.

So, you are saying that the last three popes had less authority than those that came before…by which perhaps you mean to say that the gates of hell have prevailed against the Church. Perhaps you believe they are apostate popes?

Allowing for the new mass to become less Catholic and allowing many times protestant beliefs to overcome our own.

The Popes have not allowed the new mass to become less catholic. Disobedient priests and bishops are responsible for that.

One of these introductions is the renewal I’m trying to talk about here.

No, the Popes did not introduce the charismatic renewal. The Holy Spirit did that.

The Popes have affirmed that the teaching of the gifts of the HS has been consistent from the first century until now.

And no, I don’t think any of my comments I’ve insisted on my being equal to a pope. I’m telling you that from my prayers to the holy spirit etc. I DO NOT feel that this movement is good and is not Catholic. Instead, it’s an abomination and separating.

It sounds to me as though you are saying that your insight, gained from prayer, and the revelelation of the HS is telling you something different than He is telling the Popes. How does that not make you equal to, or better than, the Pope?

I don’t doubt you have observed things int he movement that are not Catholic, that are abominations, and separating. I have observed the same kinds of things during Mass. It does not invalidate the Mass.

Charismatics are equal to Pentecostals.

This is an erroneous statement. Perhaps it is based on misinformation and lack of experience.

Catholic Charismatics are loyal to the Magesterium,a nd the teachings of the Church. Pentecostals are not.

Again, from what I was taught and believe from my church is that we don't believe is the charismatic movement.

THen you have not received the teaching of the Catholic Church, which affirms the charismatic gifts of the Holy Spirit in the Church today.

Pentecost "tongues" were languages spoken of the day and they were given to spread the Word all over.

This is one of the variety of tongues. If you read the thread, you will see that there are many.

 And that's about it, not I can speak a special heavenly language with the angels,

You can, but if you do not wish to do so, you may abstain. God does not force His gifts upon anyone.

there’s no point unless you have a message to give others.

Since the points you are giving to others at the present time are not in synchronicity with the teaching of the Church, it would indeed be advisable to deem that you have no message of value to give to others. What you have represented here is Protesantism.

 

[guanophore]

Show me one place in the bible where it does not say to water baptize in the name of Jesus.

Matt 28:19
19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

Show me one place where it says that water washes away sin, and blood does not.

I don’t think it is accurate to say that “blood does not”. Water baptism is the manner by which His blood atonement is applied to the individual.

Titus 3:5-8
5 he saved us, not because of deeds done by us in righteousness, but in virtue of his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit, 6 which he poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 so that we might be justified by his grace and become heirs in hope of eternal life.

The apostles taught that baptism is a “washing of regeneration”, during which the HS cleanses us from all sin.

Explain to me the difference between being baptized into Christ and being baptized in the name of Christ.

The Apostles taught that these are the same.

 

[heiscominginthe]

Titus 3:5-8
5 he saved us, not because of deeds done by us in righteousness, but in virtue of his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit, 6 which he poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 so that we might be justified by his grace and become heirs in hope of eternal life.

I don’t see anything here that talks of water. Yet, I do see that which pertains to salvation.

As I stated before, water baptism does not save us, it does not wash away our sins. It is symbolic of the baptism that saves us, the blood of the lamb. When a man repents and asks God to forgive him of his sins, Jesus baptizes the man, washing away the man’s sins with his blood.

1 Peter 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

What this verse is saying is we are saved through baptism which is the putting away of the filth of the flesh, yet water, which is the like figure gives us a good conscience towards God.

Please understand that it is the blood of the lamb that saves is, washing our hearts, circumcising them through Christ. IT is his blood that makes us Holy. Did they use water to sactify the temple of God? NO, they used blood.

Ephesians 1:7 in whom we have our redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace,

Colossians 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

Heb. 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.