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Mickey
Guest
Renew what?
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guanophore
Guest
Wherefore when we begin to speak, the people respond, “with your Spirit ,” indicating that of old they thus used to speak, not of their own wisdom, but moved by the Spirit.
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Mickey
Guest
Well. St John clearly tells us what he thinks about tongues. In the Divine Liturgy we respond to the priest, “And with your Spirirt”.
I am still confused as to what you think the CCR is trying to renew? I have seen the common pentecostalist practices in the CCR…gibberish tongues…laughing…maniacal crying…animal sounds…hands raised in the air…being slapped in the head and falling to the ground.
Clearly, St John is not saying to “renew” such things.
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Irish_Polock
Guest
Due to the abuses in the Corinthian Church, the members where confused rather than edified. In answer to this St. Paul assured the Corinthians that God is not the God of confusion. therefore something was most assuredly amiss at Corinth.
Since God is not the author of confusion, this means that God was not initiating all of the tongue speaking occurring at the church in Corinth. It is also reasonable to postulate that the Holy Spirit would neither cause someone to speak in tongues when another person was doing so, nor cause someone to speak without inspiring someone else with the gift to interpret the tongues, nor cause women to speak in tongues if, as 1 Corinthians 14:34 shows, he intended them to remain silent.
This being the case, it means that the inordinate an unrestrained tongue speaking - such as those exhibited in the CCR and Pentecostal movements - must have come from another source. If the rules are not being followed, it is a corollary truth that the tongue-speech is not of divine origin, for God would not contradict his own mandates‘, St. Paul began his warnings of the church in Corinth in 1 Corinthians 14:20 by saying “brethern, do not be children in your thinking; but in evil be babes, but in your thinking be mature.” The Corinthians childlike immaturity was precisely the condition of the church in Corinth. they would be very attracted to the pomp and pageantry associated with tongue speaking. As St. Paul had made clear in the opening chapters of this letter, the Corinthians were vying against each other for prominence in the church, one saying that he was “of Apollos", another saying he was “of Paul”, and then another saying that he was “of Cephas”, and yet another saying he was “of Christ”. (1Co 1:11-12; 3:3-5,21; 4:6) and due to their pride, they ran the risk of destroying the church due to this division. The proliferation of tongues in Corinth was one of the greater divisive issues occurring on a regular basis. The more they spoke in tongues above that which was ordained of God, the more they harmed the church and subsequently opening themselves up to God’s judgment. To use St. Paul’s analogy, inordinate tongue speaking was one of the means to build up the church with “wood, hay, and straw” due to the divisions it caused (1Co 3: 12). He followed this with the ominous warning in 1 Corinthians 3: 17 stating that “if any man destroys the temple of God, God will destroy him, for the temple of God is holy, and that is what you are.”
Although when used properly tongue speaking was a blessing of God and a means to communicate the gospel, it could easily turn into a curse and the very means by which one might fall from the faith, as was the case in Corinth. In fact, in 1 Corinthians 14:22 St. Paul specifies that “tongues are for a sign, not for those who believe , but to unbelievers, but prophecy is not for unbelievers, but those who believe.” The “unbeliever”, as St. Paul goes on to describe in verse 23-25, would be some one who happens to walk into a Corinthians Eucharistic celebration‘. St. Paul never said however, that the Corinthians’ tongue Speaking is a sign to the “ungifted” and “unbelievers” that have entered the Corinthian Church (1Co 14: 23-25). St. Paul’s entrance of the “ungifted” and “unbeliever” is only used for the purpose of illustrating to the Corinthians how silly they look when the whole church is speaking in tongues. Additionally, practically speaking, tongues could not be a sign to the ungifted or unbelieving man on the street, since, according to St. Paul’s reasoning upon hearing tongues the unbelievers would walk away in disgust thinking the Corinthians to be insane.
Moreover, it would be a contradiction for St, Paul to establish tongues as a sign to unbelievers in 1 Corinthians 14:21 , but then discourage giving tongues as a sign to the same unbeliever who walks into the Corinthian Church. According to St. Paul’s reasoning the only “sign” to which unbelievers or ungifted will respond is prophecy, since when he hears the clear word of prophecy he will “fall on his face and worship God” Hence - I feel - this might be the only reason for St. Paul to quote the passage in 1 Corinthians 14:21, from the Old Testament (Is 28: 11-12) concerning the infiltration of Assyrian tongues - which were given as a sign to the Jews of their unbelief, - is that the inordinate proliferation of tongues by those in the Corinthian church actually serves as a sign of their unbelief , not, ironically, their belief.
To St. Paul, and of course God, prophecy was the superior gift to tongues, for no other reason than it contained the the clear and unmistakable word of God. Yet the Corinthians - for reasons of pride - were try to make tongues a superior gift. In proliferating tongue speech beyond what God had actually inspired and thus created their own version of tongues, resulting in several people speaking at one time, or out of turn. (many of them woman, whom were told to keep silent), often with no interpreter, causing mass confusion in the church.
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Irish_Polock
Guest
Further, proliferating tongue speaking beyond what God allowed would be fairly easy to accomplish. The speaker does not have to think of what he is going to say, he only needs to speak in an unintelligible “utterance” or gibberish and hope that the church would believe that God is actually speaking through him. Tongue speaking would be far easier to camouflage then prophecy, since if no interpreter is present the members would have no idea if what was being spoken was of divine origin or the speakers own mind. It would be far more difficult for a charlatan to pass the scrutiny of the church, since the words of a prophecy would be clearly understood by all present and those same hearers would subsequently hold the speaker accountable to whatever he prophesied. If the prophecy never comes to be, the prophet is a fraud.
In regards to tongues, If the Corinthians went against Gods wishes, and sought to elevate tongues as a premier gift of the church, God would have allowed them to go down that path - as he had done with the Jews, but at the same time, the subsequent proliferation of tongues would serve as a sign of their false belief and God’s ensuing judgment. In 1 Corinthians 14:23 St. Paul says that the unbeliever or ungifted man whom enters the church would hear everyone speaking in tongues and say “you are insane”, which, when juxtaposed with verse 25, really means “God is not among you.”
Ironically, it seems as though the unbelieving or ungifted man would serve as the “prophet” who foretells the horrible spiritual condition of the Corinthians.
In regards to tongues, If the Corinthians went against Gods wishes, and sought to elevate tongues as a premier gift of the church, God would have allowed them to go down that path - as he had done with the Jews, but at the same time, the subsequent proliferation of tongues would serve as a sign of their false belief and God’s ensuing judgment. In 1 Corinthians 14:23 St. Paul says that the unbeliever or ungifted man whom enters the church would hear everyone speaking in tongues and say “you are insane”, which, when juxtaposed with verse 25, really means “God is not among you.”
Ironically, it seems as though the unbelieving or ungifted man would serve as the “prophet” who foretells the horrible spiritual condition of the Corinthians.
To clarify, the “illicit origin” was in reference to tongue speech in the modern movement, not the authentic gift.
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vardaquinn
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vardaquinn
Guest
Yes, but I don’t think you have a good grasping of what tongues or prophecy are. If someone is speaking in tongues for an assembly, and there is no interpretation, then either he’s faking or not, it doesn’t matter much to the assembly. They are not edified by it. If a person is praying in tongues as a form of prayer between that person and God, then maybe he’s faking or maybe he isn’t, but it really is of no consequence to anyone besides that person.
Prophecy is not generally simply fortelling future events, though it may be included in that (as in some of the Old Testament prophecies). But if you read most of the prophecies in the Old Testament, the majority aren’t predicting the future. They are God speaking to His people through the mouth of a prophet. Actual predictions are rare, and generally of little importance (especially after the completion of Scripture), and a lot more discernment is needed there. Generally prophecy is just God speaking directly to people through the mouth of someone else.
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Mickey
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I do not think that St John expresses his unhappiness. He is merely reporting that Glossolalia is obscure.
Justin Martyr, a prolific mid-century writer lists several kinds of gifts but does not mention Glossolalia.
After the first or perhaps the second century there is no record of it (tongues) in any patristic source, and it is not recorded as occurring even among the great Fathers of the Egyptian desert.
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vardaquinn
Guest
The emphasis on the charismatic dimension of Christianity, that is on the charisms. Both extraordinary ones and more simple and humble ones. This, according to the Church, is something essential to the very nature of the Church. Meaning: where it is missing, something essential is missing. This is done through a profound experience and encounter with God and the grace of Pentecost (“baptism in the Spirit”) and the use of various gifts for the edification of the whole Church. This is something that has been confused, and nearly forgotten about at many times during the Church’s history, and it is something essential to Christianity.
The gift of tongues is not gibberish, though it may sound like that if you don’t know the language. I am dubious of the authenticity of animal sounds, and have never seen this in a Catholic charismatic group. I am somewhat less dubious of laughter, though I’m sure God do this, I just doubt that it’s often genuine. I laugh all the time, and it gets very hard to control. But I have heard cases that sound, to me, as to be the genuine working of the Holy Spirit. But again, I’ve never seen this in a Catholic charismatic group. I’ve never heard of anyone being slapped in the head, but people are stupid, I wouldn’t be too surprised if it’s happened. Falling down, or being “slain in the spirit”, is often genuine and has happened to many individuals (many saints) throughout church history, and occurs several times in Scripture. It is a state of being so overcome by the presence of God that one falls on one’s face, involuntarily. There is a temporary suspension of the bodily faculties as the body falls, and what follows is an infused state of contemplative prayer and a powerful experience of God. This is not a charism, and we should be wary and careful of such experiences and discern them carefully.
The raising of the hands is an ancient form of prayer, called the “orans” posture. It has a lot of symbolic significance, arguably more than simply folded hands, and it quite appropriate during worship. It is one of the gestures the priest uses during the Mass. Though, during Mass, it is a “protected gesture” and can only be used by non-priests with special permission (which is the case in some charismatic parishes).
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vardaquinn
Guest
St. Justin Martyr does mention it. “If you want proof that the Spirit of God, who was with your people and left you to come to us, come into our assemblies and there you will see Him cast out demons, heal the sick, and hear Him speak in tongues and prophesy.” and
“For the prophetical gifts remain with us [Christians], even to the present time. And hence you [Jews] ought to understand that [the gifts] formerly among your nation have been transferred to us” (Dialogue with Trypho the Jew 82 [A.D. 155]).
After the first few centuries, occurrences of it are much more rare, but there are reported cases. It is possible St. Teresa had this. Hildegard von Bingen is reported to have had it. As is St. Francis of Assisi.
A document written in the 5th century mentions: If any one appear in the people to have a gift of healing or of knowledge or of tongues, a hand is not laid on him, for the work is manifest. But let them have honour. “Testamentum Domini” Book I Chapter 47
After this, it is generally simply dealt with as a form of instruction in languages unknown to the speaker, which is mostly how St. Thomas Aquinas and others deal with it.
In any case, it is clear that it became very rare. But it is clear now that is becoming once more very common. The validity of the gift can be judged by those to whom this task is entrusted (namely priests and the Magisterium), but we should neither forbid it (as Paul asks) nor turn away from it unless we are convinced the gift is not for us (as Paul says, he would like all to speak in tongues).
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vardaquinn
Guest
I should mention that there are many many examples of the other form of tongues in the life of saintly preachers. That is, what is commonly understood as tongues, instructing in languages unknown to the speaker and/or having everyone understand in their own language.
This is seen in St. Francis, St. Dominic, St. Anthony of Padua, St. Hyacinth, St. Vincent Ferrer, St. Francis Xavier, St. Paul of the Cross, and a number of others.
This is seen in St. Francis, St. Dominic, St. Anthony of Padua, St. Hyacinth, St. Vincent Ferrer, St. Francis Xavier, St. Paul of the Cross, and a number of others.
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Mickey
Guest
It is not some forgotten aspect that needs to be re-discovered. And it is certainly not something essential to Christianity. The Church and Her Liturgy has existed for many centuries…and there is no evidence that something has been confused and forgotten many times.
Although Glossolalia is obscure and very rare, I do believe that this gift can be manifested in this day and age. However, I also believe that 99.99% of the time…it is mere gibberish and is not of God.
It is a pentecostalist invention no more than 100 years old.
Waving your hand like a grade school child who knows the answer to a question, is not an ancient form of prayer…and it is not the orans posture.
My understanding is that the people are not even supposed to use the orans posture during the “Our Father”…that is reserved for the priest. And yet, at some charismatic services, everyone is waving their hands, talking in gibberish, and being “slain by the spirit” en mass! It is rather disconcerting to see.
Talk about confusion!
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vardaquinn
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It is explained rather well here:
"Whenever the Spirit intervenes, he leaves people astonished. He brings about events of amazing newness; he radically changes persons and history. This was the unforgettable experience of the Second Vatican Ecumenical Council during which, under the guidance of the same Spirit, the Church rediscovered the charismatic dimension as one of her constitutive elements: “It is not only through the sacraments and the ministrations of the Church that the Holy Spirit makes holy the people, leads them and enriches them with his virtues. Allotting his gifts according as he wills (cf. 1 Cor 12:11), he also distributes special graces among the faithful of every rank… He makes them fit and ready to undertake various tasks and offices for the renewal and building up of the Church” (Lumen gentium, n.12).
**The institutional and charismatic aspects are co-essential as it were to the Church’s constitution. **They contribute, although differently, to the life, renewal and sanctification of God’s People. It is from this providential rediscovery of the Church’s charismatic dimension that, before and after the Council, a remarkable pattern of growth has been established for ecclesial movements and new communities. " - Bl. Pope John Paul II ( SPEECH OF THE HOLY FATHER POPE JOHN PAUL II MEETING WITH ECCLESIAL MOVEMENTS AND NEW COMMUNITIES Saturday, 30 May 1998)
Why?
St. Catherine of Siena was slain in the spirit every time she received communion. I could give you a whole list of saints who describe experiences exactly along the lines of this.
Well, it may be an exaggerated form of it. Weren’t you ever taught in school that you raise your hand when speaking?
just kidding.Yes, I disapprove this. Unless there is ecclessiastical permission from the bishop, which I know is the case at several places, some I have been to. They are given permission to insert the gift of tongues at places that deem appropriate (where I went they did it after the Gloria), they are given the permission to use the orans posture. Being slain in the spirit is done by God (or else it is either the permission intentionally falling to the ground, or literally fainting). So if you have a problem with it happening at Mass, then take it up with Him.
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ltwin
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1 Timothy 2:8 ~ I desire then that in every place the men should pray, lifting holy hands without anger or quarreling;
Psalm 63:4 ~ So I will bless you as long as I live; in your name I will lift up my hands.
1 Kings 8:54 ~ Now as Solomon finished offering all this prayer and plea to the Lord, he arose from before the altar of the Lord, where he had knelt with hands outstretched toward heaven.
Psalm 141:2 ~ Let my prayer be counted as incense before you, and the lifting up of my hands as the evening sacrifice!
Psalm 134:2 ~ Lift up your hands to the holy place and bless the Lord!
Ezra 9:5 ~ And at the evening sacrifice I rose from my fasting, with my garment and my cloak torn, and fell upon my knees and spread out my hands to the Lord my God,
Lamentations 2:19 ~ “Arise, cry out in the night, at the beginning of the night watches! Pour out your heart like water before the presence of the Lord! Lift your hands to him for the lives of your children, who faint for hunger at the head of every street.”
Nehemiah 8:6 ~ And Ezra blessed the Lord, the great God, and all the people answered, “Amen, Amen,” lifting up their hands. And they bowed their heads and worshiped the Lord with their faces to the ground.
Lamentations 3:41 ~ Let us lift up our hearts and hands to God in heaven:
Psalm 28:2 ~ Hear the voice of my pleas for mercy, when I cry to you for help, when I lift up my hands toward your most holy sanctuary.
Deuteronomy 32:40 ~ For I lift up my hand to heaven and swear, As I live forever,
1 Kings 8:38 ~ Whatever prayer, whatever plea is made by any man or by all your people Israel, each knowing the affliction of his own heart and stretching out his hands toward this house,
1 Kings 8:22 ~ Then Solomon stood before the altar of the Lord in the presence of all the assembly of Israel and spread out his hands toward heaven,
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Mickey
Guest
I am certain that St Justin was not referring to the gibberish type of tongues we see in today’s modern charismatic movement. However, can you please post the verse which this was extracted from so that I might read it in context. Thank you.
It is important to read the enitirety of verse LXXXII:
"For the prophetical gifts remain with us, even to the present time. And hence you ought to understand that[the gifts] formerly among your nation have been transferred to us. And just as there were false prophets contemporaneous with your holy prophets, so are there now many false teachers amongst us, of whom our Lord forewarned us to beware; so that in no respect are we deficient, since we know that He foreknew all that would happen to us after His resurrection from the dead and ascension to heaven. For He said we would be put to death, and hated for His name’s sake; and that many false prophets and false Christs would appear in His name, and deceive many: and so has it come about. For many have taught godless, blasphemous, and unholy doctrines, forging them in His name; have taught, too, and even yet are teaching, those things which proceed from the unclean spirit of the devil, and which were put into their hearts. Therefore we are most anxious that you be persuaded not to be misled by such persons, since we know that every one who can speak the truth, and yet speaks it not, shall be judged by God, as God testified by Ezekiel, when He said, ‘I have made thee a watchman to the house of Judah. If the sinner sin, and thou warn him not, he himself shall die in his sin; but his blood will I require at thine hand. But if thou warn him, thou shalt be innocent.’ And on this account we are, through fear, very earnest in desiring to converse[with men] according to the Scriptures, but not from love of money, or of glory, or of pleasure. For no man can convict us of any of these[vices]. No more do we wish to live like the rulers of your people, whom God reproaches when He says, ‘Your rulers are companions of thieves, lovers of bribes, followers of the rewards.’ Now, if you know certain amongst us to be of this sort, do not for their sakes blaspheme the Scriptures and Christ, and do not assiduously strive to give falsified interpretations.
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Mickey
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Ah, yes. One of my favorite parts of the Presanctified Liturgy during Great Lent (we kneel for that part by the way).
I appreciate your taking the time cutting and pasting Sacred Scripture…but it was unnecessary…I am familiar with the verses. It looks like the priestly “orans posture” can be defended by some of these verses. However, it is certainly not proof for the odd hand waving that ocurrs during modern day charismatic sevices.
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Mickey
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Is that an infallible statement…proclaimed ex-cathedra?
I’m guessing she didn’t call it “slain in the spirit”.
There are many accounts of supernatural events surrounding the lives of the holy saints. What I can’t seem to find is the en mass fainting, writhing, crying, laughing, convulsing, and hand waving that occurs in todays modern charismatic movement.
I won’t have to…thankfully, this type of thing does not happen much in the Holy Orthodox Church.
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Irish_Polock
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It shouldn’t be happening in the Catholic Church either.I won’t have to…thankfully, this type of thing does not happen much in the Holy Orthodox Church.
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ltwin
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Few of these were discussing a “priestly” practice. Most of these scriptures are referring to people in general. Clearly, the lifting of hands cannot be condemned. You can make an argument, I guess, that it isn’t appropriate always. But you can hardly dismiss it as something that should be despised.Ah, yes. One of my favorite parts of the Presanctified Liturgy during Great Lent (we kneel for that part by the way).
I appreciate your taking the time cutting and pasting Sacred Scripture…but it was unnecessary…I am familiar with the verses. It looks like the priestly “orans posture” can be defended by some of these verses. However, it is certainly not proof for the odd hand waving that ocurrs during modern day charismatic sevices.
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guanophore
Guest
Clearly he does.Well. St John clearly tells us what he thinks about tongues. In the Divine Liturgy we respond to the priest, “And with your Spirirt”.
I am still confused as to what you think the CCR is trying to renew? I have seen the common pentecostalist practices in the CCR…gibberish tongues…laughing…maniacal crying…animal sounds…hands raised in the air…being slapped in the head and falling to the ground.
Clearly, St John is not saying to “renew” such things.
I am not sure what else to say, Mickey. The part I bolded, a quote from Chrysostom, is what needs to be renewed.
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