Speaking in Tongues

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santaro75

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In 1Corintheans14 Paul talks a lot about speaking in tongues, prophecy and people of the general assembly contributing to the worship. He also talks about Womens role in the worship.

I have never seen anythign that even looks close to the picture I get when looking at that chapter when i go to mass.

What am i missing here? What was Paul talking about and why doesn’t our order of mass reflect anything that he is mentioning in that chapter?
 
Well then what is the purpose f the Mass? It is the Holy Sacrifice offered by the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son to God the Father. The Mass is not some kind of man-made fabricated event with a program and some words strung together. Neither is it just an event to make one just feel good.

Further on the subject of tongues, when one takes the Catholic understanding of Scripture, tongues is the least of the gifts and there is no need to have it at all. Moving on to the role of women, the Old Testament and New Testament do not contradict one another.

Refer to scripturecatholic.com/the_eucharist.html for a better scriptural understanding of the Eucharist. As a Catholic one draws from both Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture, and the Liturgy is as has been handed down to us.
 
santaro75 said:
In 1Corintheans14 Paul talks a lot about speaking in tongues, prophecy and people of the general assembly contributing to the worship. He also talks about Womens role in the worship.

I have never seen anythign that even looks close to the picture I get when looking at that chapter when i go to mass.

What am i missing here? What was Paul talking about and why doesn’t our order of mass reflect anything that he is mentioning in that chapter?
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Have you been to a Charismatic Catholic Church?
I haven’t, but my wife has, and she told me that they were speaking in tongues there.
I have listened to some Catholic tapes from Charismatic priests who talk about all of this, so it does happen, but again I personally haven’t seen it.

I would also recommend the book “The Mass of the Early Christians” by Mike Aquilina
It shows the development of the Mass from Acts through the first few hundred years of the Church.
It is very interesting readings, and lots of documentation backing up what he writes about.

What am i missing here? What was Paul talking about and why doesn’t our order of mass reflect anything that he is mentioning in that chapter?

Acts chapter 2
They devoted themselves to the teaching of the apostles (the readings and the homily- liturgy of the word) and to the communal life, to the breaking of the bread (Liturgy of the Eucharist) and to the prayers.

At first they were held separately, at the temple/synagogue for the liturgy of the word, and at their homes for the liturgy of the Eucharist, until they were expelled form the synagogues and then held both in church homes
 
Have you read the book A New Song for the Lord? (Holy Father)

p 176 (from De otatione dominica 4,csel 3,1 ed. Hartel pp 268-69 translated into english from german)
St. Cyprian’s Interpretation of Our Father:
Discipline wich includes tranquillity and awe, belongs to words and posture of the praying. We should be mindful that we are standing before the eyes of God. One must please the divine eyes through the posture of the body and the implementation of its voice shamelessness expresses itself in vulgar shouting; it is proper for the reverent one to pray in timid words…when we come together as one with our brothers and celebrate the divine sacrifice with the Priest, we must not stir the air with formless sounds nor fling our petitions to God with extensive palaver wich should instead be humbly commended to him because God…does not need to be reminded through our shouting.

I ask, who is qualifyed to determine if the speaking is coming from the Holy Spirit?

Who? Now, speaking in tongues is not only a Christian practice mind you.

Let me know.👍
 
demerzel85 said:
Further on the subject of tongues, when one takes the Catholic understanding of Scripture, tongues is the least of the gifts and there is no need to have it at all. Moving on to the role of women, the Old Testament and New Testament do not contradict one another.
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Since when is there no need for a gift of the Holy Spirit?
 
I received the gift of tongues in 1972, and since then, it has been a very important part of my personal prayer life. The gift of tongues is primarily for personal growth, so if I use it at Mass, I keep it quiet, so no one else can hear it. The only exception to this would be a Charismatic Mass, in which case most of the people would pray out loud in tongues together. It sounds like angels in that setting, and is just beautiful.

Keep in mind that the Mass is communal in nature, and the gift of tongues is primarily personal. That is why you will rarely see them used at Mass.
 
8640 said:
Since when is there no need for a gift of the Holy Spirit?
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Perhaps you need to re-read what I wrote. I said speaking in tongues is the least of the gifts of the Holy Spirit. I did not say there was not need for the Holy Spirit. The ability to speak in tongues is just one of the manifestations.
 
I believe in the gift of tongues as far as, for example, an English only speaker suddenly being able to speak/understand foreign tongues like Spanish, French etc but the so-called tongues which is gibberish is completely fake in my view.
If a person claims they have the gift of gibberish tongues as a reality then they are at best mistaken or at worst not telling the truth. Also an individual cannot discern this anyway. It can only be discerned by the Church.
 
thistle said:
I believe in the gift of tongues as far as, for example, an English only speaker suddenly being able to speak/understand foreign tongues like Spanish, French etc but the so-called tongues which is gibberish is completely fake in my view.
If a person claims they have the gift of gibberish tongues as a reality then they are at best mistaken or at worst not telling the truth. Also an individual cannot discern this anyway. It can only be discerned by the Church.
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sounds good and logical! unfortunately the bible does not agree with you.

“If anyone speaks in a tongue, let it be two or at most three and each in turn, and one should interpret. But if there is no interpreter, the person should keep silent in the church and speak to himself and to God.”

It does say to have an interpreter or else to it to yourself and to God, But it doesn’t say it is invalid.

When is the last time you went to Mass and there was someone who spoke in tongues and someone else interpreted the prophecy for everyone else? It happens in the bible, why not in the Mass?
 
santaro75 said:
sounds good and logical! unfortunately the bible does not agree with you.

“If anyone speaks in a tongue, let it be two or at most three and each in turn, and one should interpret. But if there is no interpreter, the person should keep silent in the church and speak to himself and to God.”

It does say to have an interpreter or else to it to yourself and to God, But it doesn’t say it is invalid.

When is the last time you went to Mass and there was someone who spoke in tongues and someone else interpreted the prophecy for everyone else? It happens in the bible, why not in the Mass?
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It doesn’t say its gibberish. Its talking about strange tongues, i.e. foreign languages.
 
thistle said:
If a person claims they have the gift of gibberish tongues as a reality then they are at best mistaken or at worst not telling the truth. Also an individual cannot discern this anyway. It can only be discerned by the Church.
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The topic of this thread is not the validity of the gift of tongues. The Church has already discerned, and confirmed the validity of the gift. There’s no reason for you to insult those of us who have the gift of tongues.
 
thistle said:
It doesn’t say its gibberish. Its talking about strange tongues, i.e. foreign languages.
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ask the holyspirit to manifest in you and see what happens. I have not spoken in tongues but i have felt the elation and have felt in me a welling up of something that wanted to shout out and i believe i have been on the edge of tongues but can’t seem to let my mind get out of the way.
 
Michael_Welter said:
The topic of this thread is not the validity of the gift of tongues. The Church has already discerned, and confirmed the validity of the gift. There’s no reason for you to insult those of us who have the gift of tongues.
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Its not an insult to say that I believe gibberish tongues is not genuine. I believe it to be fake and I am not aware that it is a doctrine of the Chuch that I am obliged to believe.
I believe in the gift of tongues as far as being able to speak a foreign language is concerned.

By the way if indeed the Church has, as you say, confirmed the validity of gibberish tongues, that does not mean that anyone who claims to have a gift is genuine. Each person claiming that would have to be investigated by the Church. You cannot claim to have a gift under some blanket acknowledgement that there is such a gift.
 
thistle said:
I believe in the gift of tongues as far as, for example, an English only speaker suddenly being able to speak/understand foreign tongues like Spanish, French etc but the so-called tongues which is gibberish is completely fake in my view.
If a person claims they have the gift of gibberish tongues as a reality then they are at best mistaken or at worst not telling the truth. Also an individual cannot discern this anyway. It can only be discerned by the Church.
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AMEN! I agree completely, and I think that the gift of tongues nowadays is viewed as uncontrollable spewing of nonsensical gibberish…too bad, because I believe it is just as you said - the ability to speak/understand languages (TONGUES) you have no knowledge of…
 
santaro75 said:
ask the holyspirit to manifest in you and see what happens. I have not spoken in tongues but i have felt the elation and have felt in me a welling up of something that wanted to shout out and i believe i have been on the edge of tongues but can’t seem to let my mind get out of the way.
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Yet it still remains that not all would have the gift. It is for some and not for others. In his divine wisdom, the Creator of the Universe, God the Father decides.
 
I honestly have a serious problem with this issue. I come from a long line of Pentecostal believers (as long as 106 years of Pentecostalism affords), and I have spoken in tongues as practiced in pentecostal and charismatic churches. I also am in RCIA. There have been times in my life where I truly believed that speaking in tongues was from God, but at other times I sincerely doubted its efficaciousness. Everyone in Pentecostalism has heard anecdotical stories of actual languages being spoken. I read one such story even yesterday at my wife’s church (which I attend after Mass). I personally know people who claim to have been in services where this happened - where there were people present who heard someone speaking in a language that the hearer understood. I have never been present in such a meeting. I have, however, heard countless numbers of people speaking in tongues. The vast majority of the ‘languages’ seem to have no resemblance to actual languages, but I’m no linguist. There have been scientific studies, however, and if I remember correctly, they agree with my assessment. I will say, however, that I have heard beautiful, wonderful utterances that do seem to have the resemblance to actual languages.

I also have been present innumerable times where the ‘gift of interpretation’ gave the meaning to utterances meant for edification (these are usually given out very loudly - obvsiously meant to be for everyone to hear). I’ve never seen very specific interpretations - meaning that everything seemed to be very generic. “This is God speaking, trust in me, hold to me, etc. etc.” I have heard of instances where interpretations were very specific, but I haven’t heard any personally. Now, in my own experience, I have given out these public utterances only once in my life. It was a very emotional and riveting experience. I’ve never ‘interpreted’. The mechanics of it all confuses me, but supposedly it’s from the Holy Spirit, so mechanics are unimportant.

Even today I can still speak in tongues. I do not do it, though, for I have (for years now) been in doubt about its true nature. Having been raised in it, I suppose that it would be easy for me to subconsciously ‘pick it up’, to imitate what I’ve heard for years and mistake it for being from God. I would rather, as Paul said, speak with my understanding.

rusty
 
I was raised in the South, and have always been somewhat skeptical of “tongues”. It calls to mind televangalist frauds (remember that Tilton guy? Yikes…) and others. Which is a sad state, in my opinion.

Because once as a teenager I was taken to a charismatic Catholic church near Houston, Texas. It was not for a mass, if I recall, but was more of a prayer meeting held on a Sunday afternoon in an old school gymnasium (?). I was a teenager, and admit my mind was wandering (why was I there?), but at one point I came out of my daydreaming and noticed that there was near complete silence, and everyone appeared to be in silent prayer. So I sat, pretending to pray, feeling a little out of place, to be honest. Almost as if from a great distance, I noticed a whispering sound that began to grow. It grew slowly, coming almost in waves, and I felt quite mersmerized by it. Looking around, I noticed that many, but not all (like me), of the people were singing, softly, but not in English. It did not sound like “gibberish”, though (I’ve studied Spanish, Russian, French and Korean - I could probably spot gibberish). I wish I could descibe the sound for you - I guess the best I can do is say that it sounded “directed”. Not just a room of people sinnng, but a choir being conducted or led by a most excellent conductor. The singing sounded more Eastern than Western (I had a vague sense it was “jewish”…), and I never will forget my amazement or the beauty of that sound. I had goosebumps that came in waves, as I sat in awe. After some time, it quitely subsided, as slowly as it had come. All were left again in silent prayer.

I have not experienced that since - no one even discussed with me what I had just witnessed. But I do know it was the most beautiful sound I have ever heard.

Like I said, I have always had some doubt when I witness others speaking in tongues, which is sad. Because I do not doubt that I witnessed singing in tongues that one day in my youth.

Peace all.
 
tassitus said:
Because once as a teenager I was taken to a charismatic Catholic church near Houston, Texas. It was not for a mass, if I recall, but was more of a prayer meeting held on a Sunday afternoon in an old school gymnasium (?). I was a teenager, and admit my mind was wandering (why was I there?), but at one point I came out of my daydreaming and noticed that there was near complete silence, and everyone appeared to be in silent prayer. So I sat, pretending to pray, feeling a little out of place, to be honest. Almost as if from a great distance, I noticed a whispering sound that began to grow. It grew slowly, coming almost in waves, and I felt quite mersmerized by it. Looking around, I noticed that many, but not all (like me), of the people were singing, softly, but not in English. It did not sound like “gibberish”, though (I’ve studied Spanish, Russian, French and Korean - I could probably spot gibberish). I wish I could descibe the sound for you - I guess the best I can do is say that it sounded “directed”. Not just a room of people sinnng, but a choir being conducted or led by a most excellent conductor. The singing sounded more Eastern than Western (I had a vague sense it was “jewish”…), and I never will forget my amazement or the beauty of that sound. I had goosebumps that came in waves, as I sat in awe. After some time, it quitely subsided, as slowly as it had come. All were left again in silent prayer.
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I have been active in the Charismatic renewal for over 30 years, and I have been involved in many such situations as you describe. I have witnessed it, and participated in it hundreds of times over the years, and I can’t offer any human explanation for this amazing, beautiful gift.

Some say that the gift of tongues is the least of the gifts, and I agree. However, even if it is the least, if it is a gift from God, why would anyone reject it? All the precious jewels in the world, piled together, would be but a tiny bump compared to the huge mountain of God’s least gift.
 
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