Speaking Tongues

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Eilish Maura-

I quote from my own post:
Markstorm said:
Correct. There are two positions I can take here:
  1. “E_M (you) is so trustworthy, knowledgeable, and wise that I will believe what you say, even without proof, simply by virtue of it coming out of your mouth. Likewise for E_M’s friend.”
  2. “I do not know E_M to be extremely trustworthy, knowledgeable, and wise, so as a reasonable human being I am going to need proof instead of just believing everything they say.”
I have chosen the second option, and you’ll just have to forgive me. Note that you do not have to be a liar for me to choose the second option.

Seriously, isn’t this pretty easy to grasp? Typing something on an internet forum doesn’t mean everyone needs to believe you. Sounds reasonable, doesn’t it?
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  1. I do not believe you, especially because you have no proof.
  2. I have not accused you of being a liar, nor do I find otherwise. I abstain on this judgment because I do not know.
  3. I have made it perfectly clear that my disbelief arises from your lack of evidence, and not because I have prejudged you to be a liar.
My posts have demonstrated the weakness of your “proofs” and were made in defense of those who, quite reasonably, do not believe your claims about speaking in tongues.

You have accepted that I need not believe a random poster on an internet forum. If you continue to insinutate that I am calling you a liar while “side stepping the word”, you testify falsely against your neighbor.
 
Eilish_Maura said:
One poster, outright put me in the same category as liars.

If I am not considered a liar then I should not be in that category should I?

Another side stepped the word but described that I spoke falsely.

Both actions are different than expressing disbelief in what I shared from my friend. One can not believe an account but leave it open that it may be the truth.
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Well Elish you have pretty much proven that you will not and more than likely cannot back up the statements you made about the late Holy Father, but instead have turned this entire thread into a self serving sympathy getting attempt by claiming we have all ganged up and beat up on you.

Pathetic, truly pathetic Elish.

All you’ve done is make yourself look suspect and cast doubt on your whole argument.
 
The lack of any reports in press or announcements by JPII that he prayed in tongues only produces silence on the topic - it does not support nor rules out his use of this prayer form.

It is not proof. It is just ‘silence’ on the topic.

Has there been at any time, in any format (audio, video, print, internet) a report that shows definitively that JPII was asked if he prays in tongues and he said no?
 
Eilish_Maura said:
The lack of any reports in press or announcements by JPII that he prayed in tongues only produces silence on the topic - it does not support nor rules out his use of this prayer form.

It is not proof. It is just ‘silence’ on the topic.

Has there been at any time, in any format (audio, video, print, internet) a report that shows definitively that JPII was asked if he prays in tongues and he said no?
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HAHA are you serious? That’s your argument? We should believe that Pope John Paul II supported the Charismatic Movement because we can’t prove that he didn’t? This is utterly amazing. Wow.

If you intend to use the late Holy Father’s authority to back up the Charismatic movement, you are the one that has to prove he actually supported it.

The maker of a claim is the one that has to back the claim up. You can’t claim something to be true and then expect it to carry any weight in an argument unless it’s common knowledge or you have proof.

Palmas, on the first page of this thread, asked you for proof in your claims about the late Holy Father. In four pages, you’ve engaged in nothing but logical fallacy. You’ve done nothing to provide proof except demand full benefit of the doubt from strangers. All you’ve done is accuse others of calling you things that they didn’t.

Are you done? Really, there is nothing to be gained from posting on this subject until you actually have some proof to back your claims up.

Really, as a piece of friendly advice, stop. The argument has been settled, and you have conceded that you don’t care if we believe your claims. Already, anyone can eliminate any credibility you have just by pointing to this thread. Why throw out more bait?

**
 
Markstorm said:
HAHA are you serious? That’s your argument? We should believe that Pope John Paul II supported the Charismatic Movement because we can’t prove that he didn’t? This is utterly amazing. Wow.

]
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The originator of this thread did not call for a debate on this item.

I am not arguing anything.
I am not debating anything.
I do not have to prove anything - at least nothing more than those who claim he never prayed in tongues.

There is no proof either way.

It is not a private devotion like the rosary to be championed or ‘trumpeted’.

I shared what a friend of mine, who I know for over 10 yrs, told me.

Believe it if you want. Don’t believe it if that makes you happy.
 
Eilish_Maura said:
The lack of any reports in press or announcements by JPII that he prayed in tongues only produces silence on the topic - it does not support nor rules out his use of this prayer form.

It is not proof. It is just ‘silence’ on the topic.

Has there been at any time, in any format (audio, video, print, internet) a report that shows definitively that JPII was asked if he prays in tongues and he said no?
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That I really don’t know. But I am not the one making claims about him. You are.

In the end result I really don’t care if he did or did not. If he did, he kept it private, didn’t try to get others to do it and beyond the basic acceptance he gave to everything else, did nothing to endorse or promote it. He did not preside at any charismatic style Masses nor issue any pronouncements about it. He did nothing to legitimize the movement and took no steps to ensure that others did, again beyond the minimum that he did for everything else.

Your point seems to be if we can’t prove he didn’t, then by elimination, he did or at least we should believe that he did because you say so…

Tell you what. PM me the e-mail address of your" friend" that was at these events, and I will contact him directly.

Hows that? Fair and balanced all the way around I think:thumbsup: 👍
 
palmas85 said:
Tell you what. PM me the e-mail address of your" friend" that was at these events, and I will contact him directly.

Hows that? Fair and balanced all the way around I think:thumbsup: 👍
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What part of “I do not have to prove anything” do you not get?

This is not a debate, there are no points to win or cases to rest.

BUT if you are going to claim/accuse folks like me, who share this kind of information, of lying about it for some reason or another YOU need the provide the proof to justify the accusation.
 
This has been bothering me. Let me ask what seems to be an obvious question. What does speaking in tongues have to do with traditional Catholicism? It was unknown in the pre-V II Church. In fact, I had never heard of it until the late 70s when I began working alongside some pentecostal folks.
 
brotherhrolf said:
This has been bothering me. Let me ask what seems to be an obvious question. What does speaking in tongues have to do with traditional Catholicism? It was unknown in the pre-V II Church. In fact, I had never heard of it until the late 70s when I began working alongside some pentecostal folks.
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I was also surprised to see the thread started here.
 
palmas85 said:
As I said, I’ve heard these claims for years, always from someone who allegedly was there. Unidentified of course,👍 except that it is always a Priest :extrahappy: deeply involved in the Charismatic movement, and equally unidentified as to where and when it occurred. Believe me if it had really happened, it would have been trumpeted around the world as to when and where it happened. The leaders of the Movement would not have lost this golden opportunity.👍

But they did, No one has ever brought forth any proof whatsoever. The most telling point is that John Paull II himself never claimed to have been so blessed. So it remains
**
A SELF SERVING RUMOR**
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I don’t buy it, either… & the old “I have a friend who…” is not very convincing.

La dévotion au Sacré-Coeur de Jésus.
In His Love,
Joni
 
Eilish_Maura said:
What part of “I do not have to prove anything” do you not get?

This is not a debate, there are no points to win or cases to rest.

BUT if you are going to claim/accuse folks like me, who share this kind of information, of lying about it for some reason or another YOU need the provide the proof to justify the accusation.
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I never said you were lying. I said I thought you were repeating something that you desperately wanted to believe. I also advised you that I had heard this exact same story since the mid 80’s, from different people in the Charismatic movement. No one has ever been able to substantiate it and in fact few people outside the movement have even heard about it. No one ever identifies who this mystery priest is or where he is at or where and when this remarkable event occurred.

It is really bad form to present as facts things that you do not know to be true. Especially when the person is well known and their actions well documented.
 
Ok…but what if it is not from God? Something to ponder…
DebChris said:
As a Carmelite nun once said, “I don’t know whether or not this [speaking in tongues] is from God; but if it is, why should I refuse?”
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I think a valid point was made.

Since JPII’s time as Pope is well documented and given the length this supposed false story has been around SOMETHING should be in the documentation that puts it to rest.

Is there any official denial by him or the Vatican on this topic?
 
CradleCath said:
[SIGN][/SIGN]

I would definitely verify something of this import before I posted it on a message forum.

In His Love,
Joni
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What do you mean by ‘of this import’?

It is not like it is something freaky or illegal where you would have to be extra cautious about what is said.
 
Eilish_Maura said:
Actually some seem to have decided to wage a personal war on me.

Oh well.
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No one is waging a war against YOU, but are telling you that you are mistaken UNLESS you can offer some proof that our Holy Father engaged in & supported Charismatic Catholicism.

We’re kind of “funny” about things that are attributed to the Pope who lived through the rise & fall of the Third Reich, fought the Soviet Union’s domination of Eastern Europe, dealt with the myriad changes made in the name of the “spirit of Vatican II”, was almost murdered in an assassination attempt & fought so hard against materialism & moral relativity…to name a few things. If you intend to make such spurious statements & cite hearsay as evidence of their truth…then don’t whine when they aren’t taken seriously. You posted:

"JPII is said to have prayed in tongues (no not a known foreign language) and was supportive of the Catholic Charismatic Renewal. "
It is not a small thing, praying in tongues. Such a happening involving any Supreme Pontiff of the One, Holy, Catholic Church would be announced to the world. Either back it up with some serious proof, or drop the subject…rather than accuse people here of “waging war” against you.

La dévotion au Sacré-Coeur de Jésus.
In His Love,
Joni
 
[SIGN]
Just_1_hr_a_wk said:
What do you mean by ‘of this import’?

It is not like it is something freaky or illegal where you would have to be extra cautious about what is said.
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[/SIGN]

I did not say that it is something “freaky”, but that it is of import.
In a world where we’re told the brand of shoes that the Pope wears & are informed of his passion for apple struedel…the press would have not have kept the fact that Pope John Paul II spoke in tongues a secret.

De la Dévotion au Sacré Cœur" de Jesus
In His Love,
Joni
 
CradleCath said:
No one is waging a war against YOU, but are telling you that you are mistaken UNLESS you can offer some proof that our Holy Father engaged in & supported Charismatic Catholicism.

La dévotion au Sacré-Coeur de Jésus.
In His Love,
Joni
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Please show me where there has been any sort of official denial since this seems to be so very important and a Vatican urban legend.

IF it was so very important certainly there would be an official denial of some kind.

Till then I believe my friend (as no one has shown any reason for me not to) and I have no issue with sharing what he told me.
 
CradleCath said:
You posted:

"JPII is said to have prayed in tongues (no not a known foreign language) and was supportive of the Catholic Charismatic Renewal. "
It is not a small thing, praying in tongues. Such a happening involving any Supreme Pontiff of the One, Holy, Catholic Church would be announced to the world. Either back it up with some serious proof, or drop the subject…rather than accuse people here of “waging war” against you.

La dévotion au Sacré-Coeur de Jésus.
In His Love,
Joni
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Actually it is a small thing (praying in tongues) - it is the least of the gifts of the Holy Spirit and in no way news worthy or of import.
 
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