Special request from US Bishops!

[Ender]

We faithful Catholics have been clamoring for more involvement from the Bishops for many years, and now they are beginning to become much more involved.

If you’re talking about involvement in politics then I would agree: the bishops are becoming more involved but I find this a bad thing and have been agitating for less of it. We surely don’t need more of it. If you’re talking about their involvement in catechising their flock then I would agree that Catholics have been clamoring for it for many years. Unfortunately in this area we have not seen the bishops become more involved. I believe they have allowed themselves to become so politically involved that their actions are overly directed by their estimation of the political fallout. It is hard otherwise to understand why they waited until a month after the election to put out this call for prayer to address what are political problems.

I want the bishops to give us moral directions, not political ones and I would like them to do it without regard for the political implications of their words and actions.

Ender

 

[iloveangels]

If you’re talking about involvement in politics then I would agree: the bishops are becoming more involved but I find this a bad thing and have been agitating for less of it. We surely don’t need more of it. If you’re talking about their involvement in catechising their flock then I would agree that Catholics have been clamoring for it for many years. Unfortunately in this area we have not seen the bishops become more involved. I believe they have allowed themselves to become so politically involved that their actions are overly directed by their estimation of the political fallout. It is hard otherwise to understand why they waited until a month after the election to put out this call for prayer to address what are political problems.

I want the bishops to give us moral directions, not political ones and I would like them to do it without regard for the political implications of their words and actions.

Ender

Excellent post.

 

[beehumble]

Oh good gravy. I give up. Good night.

Well, if somebody doesn’t want to follow Our Lady, the Pope, and our US bishops in fasting and daily rosaries, I suppose one could follow this:

youtube.com/watch?v=o6Iozyg-xs4&feature=g-all-lik

In 1976, Cardinal Karol Wojtyla, who became Pope John Paul II in 1978, said,

“We are now standing in the face of the greatest historical confrontation humanity has gone through. I do not think that wide circles of the American society or wide circles of the Christian community realize this fully. We are now facing the final confrontation between the Church and the anti-Church, of the Gospel and the anti-Gospel. This confrontation lies within the plans of divine providence. It is a trial which the whole Church . . . must take up.”

This confrontation has now reached the critical point, but most telling is that the vast majority of Christians have lost sight of the fact that, fundamentally, there is no respect for the dignity of the human person – born or preborn. This is our reality, our “new normal”.

The things Our Lady asked of us - reconciliation with God through rosaries, fasting, confession, Mass, living good lives - are our only way out at this point. She said, “Only I can help you.” So we need to listen and do what she asks of us, and the Pope and the bishops are now doing just that. Amen!

The US bishops mistakenly thought their flocks would follow them on the path to Salvation, would “know their voice”, but the results of the election showed them their mistake. So now they are turning to their only remaining recourse to save their flocks from the wolves. I applaud them. Those who choose not to follow are in great danger of losing eternal life.

God bless you.

 

[irishpatrick]

If you’re talking about involvement in politics then I would agree: the bishops are becoming more involved but I find this a bad thing and have been agitating for less of it. We surely don’t need more of it. If you’re talking about their involvement in catechising their flock then I would agree that Catholics have been clamoring for it for many years. Unfortunately in this area we have not seen the bishops become more involved. I believe they have allowed themselves to become so politically involved that their actions are overly directed by their estimation of the political fallout. It is hard otherwise to understand why they waited until a month after the election to put out this call for prayer to address what are political problems.

I want the bishops to give us moral directions, not political ones and I would like them to do it without regard for the political implications of their words and actions.

Ender

I am speaking first about the spiritual aspects, and second the political aspects. We live in the world and we are called to help improve the world, we cannot help improve the world unless we engage the world.

The problems you state are political in nature are far more than that.

 

[Tigg]

The US bishops mistakenly thought their flocks would follow them on the path to Salvation, would “know their voice”, but the results of the election showed them their mistake. So now they are turning to their only remaining recourse to save their flocks from the wolves. I applaud them. Those who choose not to follow are in great danger of losing eternal life.

God bless you.

While I ardently support (and believe) in approved private revelation and no argument is forthcoming from anyone about the need to fast and pray, I disagree that the USCCB now recognizes their mistakes. They seem set on a course of progressive politics even though a few among their own ranks, like AB Chaput, have chastised them for abdicating their primary role as shepherds.

Funny thing is, the bishops no longer speak with a united voice and the difference between the governance of diocese’ is like night and day.

 

[livnlern]

While I ardently support (and believe) in approved private revelation and no argument is forthcoming from anyone about the need to fast and pray, I disagree that the USCCB now recognizes their mistakes. They seem set on a course of progressive politics even though a few among their own ranks, like AB Chaput, have chastised them for abdicating their primary role as shepherds.

Funny thing is, the bishops no longer speak with a united voice and the difference between the governance of diocese’ is like night and day.

We need to pray for our bishops and for our priests. The devil is trying to divide us. As we can see, many of us in our own families have fallen away members. We have to unite if we’re going to make a change.

 

[Tigg]

I am speaking first about the spiritual aspects, and second the political aspects. We live in the world and we are called to help improve the world, we cannot help improve the world unless we engage the world.

The problems you state are political in nature are far more than that.

“Our Constitution puts politics under theology, democracy under God. But today, politics denies its divine foundation. Politics is today the supreme and absolute science. We once lived in the age of the Theological Man; then came the age of the Economic Man; now we are in the age of the Political Man. The Theological Man lived for God; the Economic Man lived for profit; the Political Man lives for the State…So important has politics become, that now men judge religion by its attitude toward politics, rather than politics by its attitude toward religion.”

~AB Fulton J. Sheen~

It’s hard for me to build a case that the bishops are not for a Statist approach in all things concerning social justice.

 

[beehumble]

While I ardently support (and believe) in approved private revelation and no argument is forthcoming from anyone about the need to fast and pray, I disagree that the USCCB now recognizes their mistakes. They seem set on a course of progressive politics even though a few among their own ranks, like AB Chaput, have chastised them for abdicating their primary role as shepherds.

Funny thing is, the bishops no longer speak with a united voice and the difference between the governance of diocese’ is like night and day.

When you say, “I disagree the USCCB now recognizes their mistakes,” this confers on it a status I think it does not have. The statement implies the USCCB is one entity that speaks with one voice, while it is not. It is a collection of completely independent bishops who report to Rome. The USCCB can speak in a consensus or majority voice, as in “the majority of bishops of the USCCB support…” but it has no power of enforcement over its member bishops who disagree with the majority voice. Each bishop decides within his own diocese what statements from the USCCB it will follow for its parishioners. That is my understanding of how it works. It would be ideal if they spoke with one voice, and Jesus prayed for unity in His Church, but they do not.

You say, “funny thing is the bishops no longer speak with a united voice…”. Again, turning to approved private revelation, we find from Our Lady of Akita this relevant passage:

On October 13, the anniversary of the Miracle of the Sun at Fatima, 1973, Sr. Agnes heard the beautiful voice speaking from the statue once more: “The work of the devil will infiltrate even into the Church in such a way that** one will see cardinals opposing cardinals, bishops against other bishops**. The priests who venerate me will be scorned and opposed by their confreres, churches and altars will be sacked. The Church will be full of those who accept compromises and the devil will press many priests and consecrated souls to leave the service of the Lord. The demon would be especially implacable against souls consecrated to God. The thought of the loss of so many souls is the cause of my sadness. If sins increase in number and gravity, there will be no longer any pardon for them.”

She continued, “As I told you, if people do not repent and better themselves, the Father will inflict a terrible punishment on all humanity. It will be a punishment greater than the Flood, such as one will never have seen before. Fire will fall from the sky and will wipe out a great part of humanity, the good as well as the bad, sparing neither priests nor faithful [my note: this reminds one of the third secret of Fatima - the vision of the angel with the flaming sword about to set the world on fire]. The survivors will find themselves so desolate that they will envy the dead. The only arms which will remain for you will be the Rosary and the Sign left by my Son.** Each day recite the prayers of the Rosary. With the Rosary pray for the Pope, the bishops and the priests.**”

The statue wept for the last time on September 15, Feast of Our Lady of Sorrows.

God bless you.

 

[Tigg]

When you say, “I disagree the USCCB now recognizes their mistakes,” this confers on it a status I think it does not have. The statement implies the USCCB is one entity that speaks with one voice, while it is not. It is a collection of completely independent bishops who report to Rome. The USCCB can speak in a consensus or majority voice, as in “the majority of bishops of the USCCB support…” but it has no power of enforcement over its member bishops who disagree with the majority voice. Each bishop decides within his own diocese what statements from the USCCB it will follow for its parishioners. That is my understanding of how it works. It would be ideal if they spoke with one voice, and Jesus prayed for unity in His Church, but they do not.

You say, “funny thing is the bishops no longer speak with a united voice…”. Again, turning to approved private revelation, we find from Our Lady of Akita this relevant passage:

On October 13, the anniversary of the Miracle of the Sun at Fatima, 1973, Sr. Agnes heard the beautiful voice speaking from the statue once more: “The work of the devil will infiltrate even into the Church in such a way that** one will see cardinals opposing cardinals, bishops against other bishops**. The priests who venerate me will be scorned and opposed by their confreres, churches and altars will be sacked. The Church will be full of those who accept compromises and the devil will press many priests and consecrated souls to leave the service of the Lord. The demon would be especially implacable against souls consecrated to God. The thought of the loss of so many souls is the cause of my sadness. If sins increase in number and gravity, there will be no longer any pardon for them.”

She continued, “As I told you, if people do not repent and better themselves, the Father will inflict a terrible punishment on all humanity. It will be a punishment greater than the Flood, such as one will never have seen before. Fire will fall from the sky and will wipe out a great part of humanity [My note: this reminds one of the third secret of Fatima - the vision the children saw of the angel with the flaming sword about to set the world on fire], the good as well as the bad, sparing neither priests nor faithful. The survivors will find themselves so desolate that they will envy the dead. The only arms which will remain for you will be the Rosary and the Sign left by my Son.** Each day recite the prayers of the Rosary**. With the Rosary pray for the Pope, the bishops and the priests.”

The statue wept for the last time on September 15, Feast of Our Lady of Sorrows.

God bless you.

The USCCB is a bureaucracy with no teaching mission per se, but Catholics take their statements to heart and oftentimes cannot separate their political opinions from actual church teaching. (This is most pronounced in the area of immigration.) I also realize that much of the prophetic message of Mary has come to pass.

 

[zab]

The USCCB is a bureaucracy with no teaching mission per se, but Catholics take their statements to heart and oftentimes cannot separate their political opinions from actual church teaching. (This is most pronounced in the area of immigration.) I also realize that much of the prophetic message of Mary has come to pass.

They are asking us to pray, fast and abstain for religious liberty. What’s the beef

 

[beehumble]

The USCCB is a bureaucracy with no teaching mission per se, but Catholics take their statements to heart and oftentimes cannot separate their political opinions from actual church teaching. (This is most pronounced in the area of immigration.) I also realize that much of the prophetic message of Mary has come to pass.

I don’t recall the USCCB expressing, as a group, its political opinion? Moral opinions, yes. Political, no.

I think many are conflating politics with morality, because many see one political party as having more Church-based morals than the other.

The Church is the voice of God’s faith and morals in the world. In the garden, we find the tree of death (eat of the fruit of this tree and you will die) and the tree of life.

And so too we have in our ‘garden’ the culture of life, and the culture of death. One party seems to align itself more with the culture of death, and so it seems the Church is speaking against that party, but that is not the case; the Church speaks against the culture of death where ever it finds it.

God bless you.

 

[Ender]

Well, if somebody doesn’t want to follow Our Lady, the Pope, and our US bishops in fasting and daily rosaries, I suppose one could follow this…

I think you’ve missed the point of most of our comments. I don’t believe anyone has suggested we should ignore the requests of the bishops. The objections are about the excessive politicization of the clergy and the appearance given that it is political rather than moral considerations that influence their actions.

This confrontation has now reached the critical point, but most telling is that the vast majority of Christians have lost sight of the fact that, fundamentally, there is no respect for the dignity of the human person – born or preborn. This is our reality, our “new normal”.

There are any number of examples one could cite to demonstrate how our society has normalized acts that would have been unthinkable even a few decades ago. That Catholics don’t look significantly different from non-Catholics on those issues demonstrates the poverty of the leadership they have received. This is the complaint being expressed in this forum.

The US bishops mistakenly thought their flocks would follow them on the path to Salvation, would “know their voice”, but the results of the election showed them their mistake.

How are the people to follow the bishops when the bishops refuse to lead them? In what way was leadership provided to guide Catholic votes in the past election? Five years ago the bishops created the document “Faithful Citizenship” that ostensibly provided voters with guidance to the upcoming elections. In fact it did no such thing and was roundly criticized for basically being all things to all people. Their response those objections this time was to reissue the same document, completely unchanged, with a preface essentially saying they meant what they said the last time. Our objections have not been addressed and this call for prayer and fasting - which has not been made in my own diocese - just looks like more of the same.

Ender

 

[Tigg]

I don’t recall the USCCB expressing, as a group, its political opinion? Moral opinions, yes. Political, no.

Sorry…somewhere the very crux of this conversation has been lost!

I too, give up!

 

[beehumble]

I think you’ve missed the point of most of our comments. I don’t believe anyone has suggested we should ignore the requests of the bishops. The objections are about the excessive politicization of the clergy and the appearance given that it is political rather than moral considerations that influence their actions.
There are any number of examples one could cite to demonstrate how our society has normalized acts that would have been unthinkable even a few decades ago. That Catholics don’t look significantly different from non-Catholics on those issues demonstrates the poverty of the leadership they have received. This is the complaint being expressed in this forum.
How are the people to follow the bishops when the bishops refuse to lead them? In what way was leadership provided to guide Catholic votes in the past election? Five years ago the bishops created the document “Faithful Citizenship” that ostensibly provided voters with guidance to the upcoming elections. In fact it did no such thing and was roundly criticized for basically being all things to all people. Their response those objections this time was to reissue the same document, completely unchanged, with a preface essentially saying they meant what they said the last time. Our objections have not been addressed and this call for prayer and fasting - which has not been made in my own diocese - just looks like more of the same.

Ender

I think it is people who think the USCCB has authority over member bishops that are confused. How is Cardinal Dolan supposed to ‘make’ a fellow bishop do what Dolan or Chaput think ought to be done? How is Cardinal Dolan supposed to have the bishop presiding over Notre Dame dis-invite Obama? He has no authority over fellow bishops, nor does the USCCB have any authority over a bishop.

The USCCB is not some all-powerful monolith, as many posters seem to think.

Someone says the USCCB request for prayer and fasting so far has not been mentioned in their parish. Perhaps the bishop over that parish does not agree with the request, and so will not issue it to his flock. It is his prerogative, and the USCCB cannot ‘make’ him issue the request. Our Lady warned about bishops opposing bishops, and so here it is. This is the work of Satan and is our own fault too.

Sister Lucia said so. Again for those who did not ‘get’ it:
"If we do not reject the path of sin, hatred, revenge, injustice, violations of the rights of the human person, immorality and violence, etc.

… it is people themselves who are preparing their own punishment. In his kindness God warns us and calls us to the right path, while respecting the freedom he has given us; hence people are responsible,"

A US Catholic, upon death, hearing Jesus say “you are condemned” will not have recourse to “but it’s my bishop’s fault - he didn’t teach me correctly.” Good luck with that one.

“God warns us and calls us to the right path, while respecting the freedom he has given us; hence people are responsible if they do not reject the path of sin, hatred, revenge, injustice, violations of the rights of the human person, immorality and violence, etc”

God’s laws are written on our hearts. We have the Bible. We have the catechism. We have our conscience and remorse. We have confession. We have no excuse.

God bless you.

 

[Ender]

Funny thing is, the bishops no longer speak with a united voice and the difference between the governance of diocese’ is like night and day.

“By issuing policy statements on matters that lie beyond their specific competence, and that pertain rather to experts in secular disciplines, the bishops diminish their own credibility in speaking about matters with which they are specially charged as spiritual leaders of the church.” (Cardinal Dulles)
You have identified a major problem which, as Cardinal Dulles pointed out, is the inevitable result when bishops express their opinions on secular matters. That Dulles had just cause for concern was confirmed when the bishops raised the alarm over the HHS mandate … and it was received largely with indifference by their flocks. People have become so used to their bishops issuing political proclamations they no longer take their comments seriously even when they should. On the HHS mandate the bishops were united but the response was like that of the townspeople in the story of the Boy Who Cried Wolf: just another false warning. Catholics are so inured to the political suggestions of the clergy that nothing they say seems to carries much weight.

Ender

 

[beehumble]

“By issuing policy statements on matters that lie beyond their specific competence, and that pertain rather to experts in secular disciplines, the bishops diminish their own credibility in speaking about matters with which they are specially charged as spiritual leaders of the church.” (Cardinal Dulles)
You have identified a major problem which, as Cardinal Dulles pointed out, is the inevitable result when bishops express their opinions on secular matters. That Dulles had just cause for concern was confirmed when the bishops raised the alarm over the HHS mandate … and it was received largely with indifference by their flocks. People have become so used to their bishops issuing political proclamations they no longer take their comments seriously even when they should. On the HHS mandate the bishops were united but the response was like that of the townspeople in the story of the Boy Who Cried Wolf: just another false warning. Catholics are so inured to the political suggestions of the clergy that nothing they say seems to carries much weight.

Ender

That is because we are in the apostasy, the great falling away of Catholics and their leaders spoken of by St. Paul in 2 Thessalonians. The Russian error of atheism has spread fully to the West now - the US had held out while Europe fell years ago. But the US has now fallen. The Pope spoke recently of “practical atheists” - those who were baptized and profess the Christian faith, but in practice behave like atheists.

Fallen away Catholics do not listen to bishops. The bishops realize now that the only recourse is daily prayer and fasting - it has come to this, the last remedy, given to us by the Mother of God herself, the Pope, and the bishops. The very call of these bishops to this remedy is a dire warning to us.

God bless you.

 

[Ender]

The USCCB is not some all-powerful monolith, as many posters seem to think.

Since I haven’t made any comments about the USCCB (in this thread) I don’t know why you made this response to me and since you didn’t address any of the comments I did make I don’t know how to respond to you.

Ender

 

[beehumble]

Since I haven’t made any comments about the USCCB (in this thread) I don’t know why you made this response to me and since you didn’t address any of the comments I did make I don’t know how to respond to you.

Ender

Sorry I was speaking in general to the thread. I should have hit post reply instead of ‘quote’. I guess I don’t have more to say on the topic; I hope as many as possible heed the bishops’ request as much as they can.

God bless you.

 

[iloveangels]

…

I think many are conflating politics with morality, because many see one political party as having more Church-based morals than the other.

…

This statement is true, at least. And people who do this are WRONG. Politics is NOT religion. These views that political parties have are intended for political gain, and money and power. They don’t have religious motives, much less Catholic motives. People who believe they have religious motives are ignorant both about politics and Catholicism.

 

[iloveangels]

…

The bishops realize now that the only recourse is daily prayer and fasting - it has come to this, the last remedy, given to us by the Mother of God herself, the Pope, and the bishops. …
God bless you.

Not so sure of this either because you’re allegorizing everything almost past recognition.

The bishops are trying to figure out how they can get out of the mess they’ve made without: a) giving up the illusion that they actually still control all this stuff, and b) paying an arm and a leg in taxes, c) admitting they messed up, and d) actually giving up the CEO thing and going back to their dioceses and teaching the faith (which is what should have been their first priority the whole time anyway).

I don’t think they’re going to manage it, frankly. I think there’s a fair chance all of that stuff is going to happen, some of it pretty quickly.