Special request from US Bishops!

[iloveangels]

“By issuing policy statements on matters that lie beyond their specific competence, and that pertain rather to experts in secular disciplines, the bishops diminish their own credibility in speaking about matters with which they are specially charged as spiritual leaders of the church.” (Cardinal Dulles)
You have identified a major problem which, as Cardinal Dulles pointed out, is the inevitable result when bishops express their opinions on secular matters. That Dulles had just cause for concern was confirmed when the bishops raised the alarm over the HHS mandate … and it was received largely with indifference by their flocks. People have become so used to their bishops issuing political proclamations they no longer take their comments seriously even when they should. On the HHS mandate the bishops were united but the response was like that of the townspeople in the story of the Boy Who Cried Wolf: just another false warning. Catholics are so inured to the political suggestions of the clergy that nothing they say seems to carries much weight.

Ender

Excellent post. I agree. They’re not used to being taught religion either because it hasn’t happened in so long. Many Catholics are just muddling through, it’s all they have.

 

[iloveangels]

I think you’ve missed the point of most of our comments. I don’t believe anyone has suggested we should ignore the requests of the bishops. The objections are about the excessive politicization of the clergy and the appearance given that it is political rather than moral considerations that influence their actions.

I agree with this whole-heartedly. This political pandering has got to stop. The bishops are teachers of the faith, not politicians. These documents they often write on political issues do nothing but put on display their ignorance about such things. And people don’t read them. They teach people to ignore what the Church says, especially since actual Church teaching is not in evidence, just politics is.

There are any number of examples one could cite to demonstrate how our society has normalized acts that would have been unthinkable even a few decades ago. That Catholics don’t look significantly different from non-Catholics on those issues demonstrates the poverty of the leadership they have received. This is the complaint being expressed in this forum.

Also whole-heartedly agree. The statistics on Catholic use of birth control, abortion & divorce are almost identical to those of the general population. You can know a person for years and not know they’re Catholic. 10.1% of the country is ex-Catholic. 80% of Catholics don’t bother to show up weekly for mass. Catholicism is in a state of collapse in this country. And why is that? I’ll bet anyone here can think of 3 practical reasons why this is, but will anyone listen or do anything about it? I doubt it. This apparently doesn’t matter as much as politics to some people.

How are the people to follow the bishops when the bishops refuse to lead them? In what way was leadership provided to guide Catholic votes in the past election? Five years ago the bishops created the document “Faithful Citizenship” that ostensibly provided voters with guidance to the upcoming elections. In fact it did no such thing and was roundly criticized for basically being all things to all people. Their response those objections this time was to reissue the same document, completely unchanged, with a preface essentially saying they meant what they said the last time. Our objections have not been addressed and this call for prayer and fasting - which has not been made in my own diocese - just looks like more of the same.
Ender

Also agree. A person in even a small diocese can go years at a time without seeing the bishop. The bishop doesn’t teach laypeople. In fact, it doesn’t even look like they teach their own priests. Parishes are closed on weeknights. Virtually nothing is going on in many parishes across the country. People are left on their own to drift. We have to come to online forums to find other Catholics to talk to.

 

[zab]

Not so sure of this either because you’re allegorizing everything almost past recognition.

The bishops are trying to figure out how they can get out of the mess they’ve made without: a) giving up the illusion that they actually still control all this stuff, and b) paying an arm and a leg in taxes, c) admitting they messed up, and d) actually giving up the CEO thing and going back to their dioceses and teaching the faith (which is what should have been their first priority the whole time anyway).

I don’t think they’re going to manage it, frankly. I think there’s a fair chance all of that stuff is going to happen, some of it pretty quickly.

You are going overboard trying to judge the intentions of the bishops here.

 

[iloveangels]

You are going overboard trying to judge the intentions of the bishops here.

In what way? Specifically.

 

[beehumble]

Not so sure of this either because you’re allegorizing everything almost past recognition.

The bishops are trying to figure out how they can get out of the mess they’ve made without: a) giving up the illusion that they actually still control all this stuff, and b) paying an arm and a leg in taxes, c) admitting they messed up, and d) actually giving up the CEO thing and going back to their dioceses and teaching the faith (which is what should have been their first priority the whole time anyway).

I don’t think they’re going to manage it, frankly. I think there’s a fair chance all of that stuff is going to happen, some of it pretty quickly.

It seems you keep trying to put all the blame on the bishops for the mess we’re in, even though I posted how Sr. Lucia said it is the people’s fault for choosing the path of sin. Last time I read the Gospels, God is not big on those in sin who point to others for blame - something about a plank in thine own eye.

We are in the final confrontation with evil, as related by Pope John Paul. I am giving the big picture of the forest, and you keep focusing on the trees and missing that bigger picture. In that bigger picture, which has been a century in the making, the only remedy is prayer, fasting, confession, Mass, and love of neighbor and leading a good life. Reports about how many Catholics attend Mass or use contraception do not matter at this point; we are way past that. Bashing bishops on a blog does not matter at this point. Pray and fasting actually can solve everything, if enough of us do it.

God bless you.

 

[iloveangels]

It seems you keep trying to put all the blame on the bishops for the mess we’re in, even though I posted how Sr. Lucia said …

More Marian-inspired allegory. Sigh.

PS. FYI. I didn’t create this mess. When the religious congregations who built all these institutions failed to get recruits, and turned their institutions over to lay boards, and then these things subsequently turned into secular outfits, the bishops and indeed many more Catholics, should have yelled and yelled loud. But no, they didn’t. They went right along with it. And they’re still going along with it. It’s pretty bad when secular society calls you on your hypocrisy and that’s what’s happened here. The sooner we admit that and fix it, the better off we’ll be in every way. I"m still waiting for that to happen. I’m not seeing it yet.

 

[beehumble]

More Marian-inspired allegory. Sigh.

What you don’t know about Marian apparitions is a lot.

As for allegory, Blessed Mary doesn’t come down from Heaven for milk and cookies, or to tell us to go to Church on Sunday. She comes to warn us of great evil about to come upon us. At Fatima she warned of Russia. In Rwanda she showed visions of acres and acres of chopped up bodies with their heads cut off, and rivers of blood. The people did not listen to her warnings, and it all came to pass. This was as recent as 1994. And at Akita she warns of so much sin in the world that there is no longer pardon for it and fire falling from Heaven and consuming everything (which sounds like Rev 20, by the way). This is not allegory, this is exacting reality. The time for blame is over because we are all guilty. The time for fasting and prayer is here.

Prayer and fasting can actually fix the mess we’re in, by the way.

God bless you.

 

[iloveangels]

What you don’t know about Marian apparitions is a lot.

As for allegory, Blessed Mary doesn’t come down from Heaven for milk and cookies, or to tell us to go to Church on Sunday. She comes to warn us of great evil about to come upon us. At Fatima she warned of Russia. In Rwanda she showed visions of acres and acres of chopped up bodies with their heads cut off, and rivers of blood. The people did not listen to her warnings, and it all came to pass. This was as recent as 1994. And at Akita she warns of so much sin in the world that there is no longer pardon for it and fire falling from Heaven and consuming everything (which sounds like Rev 20, by the way). This is not allegory, this is exacting reality. The time for blame is over because we are all guilty. The time for fasting and prayer is here.

Prayer and fasting can actually fix the mess we’re in, by the way.

God bless you.

NO. Coming clean on our obligations and stopping the nonsense will actually help to fix the mess we’re in. The bishops say they’re “not going to comply.” I want to see THAT.

And then actually paying attention to Christianity will help also. Which means actually KNOWING WHAT IT IS. The religious education of most Catholics stopped along about the 8th grade and it shows.

 

[beehumble]

More Marian-inspired allegory. Sigh.

PS. FYI. I didn’t create this mess.

So you are without sin, then? We all built this mess.

It is simply ill-advised to blame the bishops for the mess we are in, They need our support. And we need to obey. If BO is reading all this ‘blame the bishops’ stuff from Catholics, he is loving it.

God bless you.

 

[iloveangels]

So you are without sin, then? We all built this mess.

It is simply ill-advised to blame the bishops for the mess we are in, They need our support. And we need to obey. If BO is reading all this ‘blame the bishops’ stuff from Catholics, he is loving it.

God bless you.

I’m a convert. I’m not responsible for this mess. I stepped in it.

PS. You can lambaste me now for being a convert. I’m used to it. Catholics are mean to converts. That’s why you keep so few of them.

 

[beehumble]

NO. Coming clean on our obligations and stopping the nonsense will actually help to fix the mess we’re in. …

Oh yeah of little faith! Prayer and fasting can stop wars, it can actually solve everything, because it stirs our great God to compassion on our behalf, and He can do anything.

I hope you are leading an exemplary life, because it is not good to blame others for problems when we ourselves might be one of the causes of the problem. Our sins have led us to this.

God bless you.

 

[iloveangels]

Oh yeah of little faith! Prayer and fasting can stop wars, it can actually solve everything, because it stirs our great God to compassion on our behalf, and He can do anything.

I hope you are leading an exemplary life, because it is not good to blame others for problems when we ourselves might be one of the causes of the problem. Our sins have led us to this.

God bless you.

The sins of Catholics have led to this. The fact that they don’t know their faith and that doesn’t bother them led to this. The fact that Catholics think that their faith is just an exercise in social work has led to this. A lot of things in the Church have led to this. And a lot of things I can’t change led to this.

Nice of you to say “God bless you” after lambasting me.

 

[beehumble]

I’m a convert. I’m not responsible for this mess. I stepped in it.

PS. You can lambaste me now for being a convert. I’m used to it. Catholics are mean to converts. That’s why you keep so few of them.

I don’t lambast anybody. (I put a smiley after that above!!) Welcome home! All I am saying is our sins are the root cause of this, and our fasting and penance will help to get us out of it - I believe that is what the bishops now see, and are going for.

God bless you. And take a breath!! I did!

 

[iloveangels]

I don’t lambast anybody. Welcome home! All I am saying is our sins are the root cause of this, and our fasting and penance will help to get us out of it - I believe that is what the bishops now see, and are going for.

God bless you. And take a breath!! I did!

The bishops say that they will not comply. That’s what I want to see. Pure and simple. Just like that.

Make institutions that claim to be Catholic man up and get the exemption or shut down. Or stop claiming to be Catholic.
Make the diocesan programs man up and get the exemption. Or be shut down.

 

[beehumble]

The sins of Catholics have led to this. The fact that they don’t know their faith and that doesn’t bother them led to this. The fact that Catholics think that their faith is just an exercise in social work has led to this. A lot of things in the Church have led to this. And a lot of things I can’t change led to this.

We are in apostasy - the great falling away mentioned by St. Paul in 2 Thessalonians… Many Catholics and other Christians believe this, as do I. And this is what Paul meant, and it is hard to live through such a thing. It is why the Pope has called for a new evangelization, a new conversion, a new awakening of the faith. Conversion is the opposite of apostasy, it is an attempt to fight the apostasy sweeping over the Christian world in so many places. It seems like evil is winning. But it wont.

Our prayer and fasting will help guide the bishops in their upcoming course of action.

God bless you!

 

[datritle]

The Democrats are committed to keeping abortion going. So there is a problem with half of US Catholics voting for them as you say. But we need to be careful of judging those other Catholics. Was their vote a vote to keep abortion going? If so, then that is a problem. But we don’t really know that half of our fellow Catholics voted to “give up those rights and liberties.” Maybe they voted that way because they don’t like the hostility expressed by so many “conservative” talk radio types against “illegal aliens.” Or maybe they voted that way because they don’t trust the Bush-type foreign policy, but they might have been OK with the Reagan foreign policy of peace through strength. Or maybe they plain don’t believe the GOP anymore when they say they’ll “protect the sanctity of life.” Maybe they want more than lip service.

Thank you so much for saying this. I am still very conflicted about my vote, and yes, it was for obama, but i certainly didn’t vote for him in order to further abortion, etc. But i know i definitely didn’t wan’t romney in there…and i think that would have devastated out social programs. i pray for a candidate who is both socially conservative, but liberal with doing the right thing for the “least among us”.

 

[iloveangels]

We are in apostasy - the great falling away mentioned by St. Paul in 2 Thessalonians… Many Catholics and other Christians believe this, as do I. And this is what Paul meant, and it is hard to live through such a thing. It is why the Pope has called for a new evangelization, a new conversion, a new awakening of the faith. Conversion is the opposite of apostasy, it is an attempt to fight the apostasy sweeping over the Christian world in so many places. It seems like evil is winning. But it wont.

Our prayer and fasting will help guide the bishops in their upcoming course of action.

God bless you!

I’m not sure I do believe this. There have been other periods of hardship in the Church. And Catholics have brought this upon themselves. I don’t have much sympathy, as you can tell. I’ve seen many ridiculous things as a convert.

 

[beehumble]

By the way in those “allegorical” apparitions, Blessed Mary is constantly calling us to pray and support our shepherds (our bishops and priests). We should.

God bless you.

 

[iloveangels]

Thank you so much for saying this. I am still very conflicted about my vote, and yes, it was for obama, but i certainly didn’t vote for him in order to further abortion, etc. But i know i definitely didn’t wan’t romney in there…and i think that would have devastated out social programs. i pray for a candidate who is both socially conservative, but liberal with doing the right thing for the “least among us”.

Oh, please. This is not about electoral politics. Some people can’t tell politics from religion.

 

[beehumble]

I’m not sure I do believe this. There have been other periods of hardship in the Church. And Catholics have brought this upon themselves. I don’t have much sympathy, as you can tell. I’ve seen many ridiculous things as a convert.

You should check out the end times speculation thread sometime, in the Back Fence section. The gist of it is we are in the time of the end. From the catechism, one reads of an apostasy that comes at that time. I believe, as do others, that that apostasy is here.

God bless you.