Spirituality of religious orders in Catholic tradition

[Melchior_1]

In the “Perfect Joy of St. Francis” thread we got a bit derailed talking about the different spiritualities within the Church. This here is a thread where people can discuss such things, especially in light of Catholic Tradition and traditional practices. What is traditional for an Order may not be the same as it is for others!

Interesting observation.
How about a Carmelite? What will the Carmelite do when the person ask for a prayer?
I’m interested to know because the Benedictine response is what I thought a Carmelite would give.

Alfonsus, the Carmelites and Benedictines dovetail in the same fashion as the Dominicans and Franciscans. Very similar spiritualities, but they apply them a bit differently. A girl who goes to my Church is very big into Carmelite spirituality, and there is a very large emphasis on interior detachment and the contemplative.

The example I gave in the other thread was “what would happen at a prayer meeting if someone asked to be prayed over/with?”

A Benedictine would likely pray, meditate on the issue the person has, and join the community through silent prayer. Also, Lectio Devina I believe was formed by Benedictines, which should also give is good insight into some of their practices. You can tell a lot by a group by the traditions they have, and the practices they came up with. A Dominican came up with the Rosary, which is a prayer that doubles as a teaching tool (the mysteries do teach you to focus on the life Christ and the big events that happened in the Gospels).

The Carmelite would do something similar, but would truly invest all of themselves into the prayer without hesitation. They would truly give all they can spiritually to that person and to the prayer. There would be no hesitation to do this. In this sense, I love Carmelites and those who practice Carmelite spirituality. The way they can just abandon themselves into prayer and give the Glory to God through all things and in all things of their lives. It’s sometimes jarring to see how peaceful they can be.

Charism wise, it sort of works like how the Franciscans are family first, preachers second. Dominicans are preachers first, family second. In this case I would say Benedictines place more of an emphasis on community and family (and obedience. A LOT on obedience). Meanwhile, the Carmilite would focus solely on the contemplative and the abandonment of self. because of this abandonment, there’s less of a need to place an emphasis on obedience (if that makes sense).

 

[TrueLight]

The Carmelite would do something similar, but would truly invest all of themselves into the prayer without hesitation. They would truly give all they can spiritually to that person and to the prayer. There would be no hesitation to do this. In this sense, I love Carmelites and those who practice Carmelite spirituality. The way they can just abandon themselves into prayer and give the Glory to God through all things and in all things of their lives. It’s sometimes jarring to see how peaceful they can be.

Thanks for sharing this about the Carmelites. I didn’t know anything about them except I believe they are linked to the brown scapulars right?

The FSSP parish I often attend has a Carmelite third order and the women had invited me to check out a meeting.

In any case, I think it’s a beautiful thing to be able to give God the Glory in all things. Any recommendations for a good book on Carmelite spirituality/history?

 

[Melchior_1]

Thanks for sharing this about the Carmelites. I didn’t know anything about them except I believe they are linked to the brown scapulars right?

In any case, I think it’s a beautiful thing to be able to give God the Glory in all things. Any recommendations for a good book on Carmelite spirituality/history?

Yeah, they rock the scapular. I’m pretty sure if you’re a Third Order Carmelite you have to wear one.

As for books, I think some of the writings of the Little Flower would be a good start. A great start, actually.

It’d be great to get a Third Order Carmelite in here to talk about this

 

[TrueLight]

In this case I would say Benedictines place more of an emphasis on community and family (and obedience. A LOT on obedience).

See this is interesting because based on your description, I would expect the Benedictines to be more solitary folks.

 

[Melchior_1]

See this is interesting because based on your description, I would expect the Benedictines to be more solitary folks.

Someone PLEASE correct me if I’m wrong on this…

But I think that’s one of the wonders of the Benedictines. They do things as a community, yet they do so in a methodical and contemplative fashion. Picture a room full of people all doing Lectio Divina. They’re all prayer together, yet doing so on their own.

It’d be great if we can drag a Benedictine into the thread to explain this stuff. Or Brother JR, whose knowledge in these areas greatly surpasses mine

 

[TrueLight]

Someone PLEASE correct me if I’m wrong on this…

But I think that’s one of the wonders of the Benedictines. They do things as a community, yet they do so in a methodical and contemplative fashion. Picture a room full of people all doing Lectio Divina. They’re all prayer together, yet doing so on their own.

It’d be great if we can drag a Benedictine into the thread to explain this stuff. Or Brother JR, whose knowledge in these areas greatly surpasses mine

I’m sure Brother JR, will drop by.

And I believe Oralabora is a Benedictine Oblate too.

 

[HonoraDominum]

Thanks for sharing this about the Carmelites. I didn’t know anything about them except I believe they are linked to the brown scapulars right?

The FSSP parish I often attend has a Carmelite third order and the women had invited me to check out a meeting.

In any case, I think it’s a beautiful thing to be able to give God the Glory in all things. Any recommendations for a good book on Carmelite spirituality/history?

Two books by Carmelites that I absolutely love are the classic “Story of a Soul” by little Therese (get a copy with the translation by John Clarke OCD if you can), and “Practicing the Presence of God” by Brother Lawrence.

I’m sure most Carmelites have at least a dozen favorite quotes from little Thérèse, as do I. But let me share with you the quote, the one sentence that sucked me into Carmelite spirituality and one I come back to on pretty much a daily basis:

Our Lord has deigned to explain this mystery to me. He showed me the book of nature, and I understood that every flower created by Him is beautiful, that the brilliance of the rose and the whiteness of the lily do not lessen the perfume of the violet or the sweet simplicity of the daisy. I understood that if all the lowly flowers wished to be roses, nature would lose its springtide beauty, and the fields would no longer be enamelled with lovely hues. And so it is in the world of souls, Our Lord’s living garden. **He has been pleased to create great Saints who may be compared to the lily and the rose, but He has also created lesser ones, who must be content to be daisies or simple violets flowering at His Feet, and whose mission it is to gladden His Divine Eyes when He deigns to look down on them. **And the more gladly they do His Will the greater is their perfection.

I hope that every day, by doing God’s will and praying to love him and for him to be loved (from Thérèse’s Oblation to Merciful Love), I too may revel in being a daisy, and not be saddened that I am not a rose or a lily.

I just read about Brother Lawrence last week and devoured his book in two days. This, to me, is an excellent quote showing the Carmelite spirituality to me:

There is no mode of life in the world more pleasing and more full of delight than continual conversation with God; only those who practice and experience it can understand it.

And here’s my favorite quote from him:

Do everything for the love of God. Everything can be used to show God our love and to maintain his presence within . . .I flip over my omelet in the pan for love of God.

Imagine walking through life, saying, “I drink this glass of Orange Juice for love of Thee, oh Lord. I open this door for love of Thee, oh Lord.” What an amazingly blessed life! Brother Lawrence often didn’t even pray during his “prayer time” in the Carmelite monastery where he lived. He spent the time doing everything he could to simply put himself in the presence of God. To me, that is Carmelite spirituality in a nutshell - getting rid of all of the clutter in my brain and in my heart and in my life, getting rid of everything that makes me “me”, and putting myself in God’s presence so I can love Him as He deserves to be loved.

Also, if you’ll notice, I have a picture of Our Lady of Mount Carmel in my signature. The reason that the Flos Carmeli is the Mary of whom I have the greatest devotion is because her essense is of pondering Christ in her heart, a life of simplicity and contemplation. When I wear my scapular, I am reminded to live a life of simple and humble obedience, constantly pondering Christ in my heart as my mother Mary did all of her days.

 

[JReducation]

If you want to understand the Carmelite School, you need to read the Rule of St. Albert. Without the Rule, the writings of the Carmelite msytics are out of context. The Rule of St. Albert is very interesting, because unlike Benedict, Augustine and Francis who give their followers a theology on which to build, Albert, not being a Carmelite himself, knows nothing about their way of life. So he proceeds to give them a description of what he sees. There are three elements that are striking: the prior, solitude and obedience.

In order for the Carmelites to live the heremetica life, they must submit to the Prior. They surrender their will, property, and needs to the Prior. Those things become his problem. They embrace solitude in order to find silence. They obey in order to be free of desires and temptations that distract. Upon these foundations they can build a contemplative life.

What you see when you read the Carmelite mystics is the product, which is contemplation. But what Therese does not tell you is the foundation upon which that life of contemplation is built. She focusses on the direction and ultimate end of contemplation, which is love of God. How she gets there is as important as where she gets to. She gets there through the prioress, solitude and obedience.

The Benedictine School and the Carmelite School also overlap. The Benedictines build on obedience, stability and liturgy. It’s important to read the Rule of Benedict. Benedict is to religious life what Aquinas is to Systematic Theology. He built the system upon which all the others were built. The only system that does not come out of that boundation is the Franciscan system. Because it is rooted in the private revelation of Christ to Francis. All the other schools of religious life look to Benedict: Augustine, Albert, John de Matha, Ignatius of Loyola, Dominnic, Norbet, Bruno, Bernard, Romould and others.

This will probably get me excommunicated from Traddom, but it is Benedict who says that the Abbot is the unquestionable voice of Christ. He applies to the abbot the words of scripture, “He who hears you, hear me,” and “Whatever you bind on earth, shall be bound in heaven.” To this day, the Church has never dared to touch the rule of St. Benedict. There are two rules in the Church that come with a curse of eternal damnation for anyone who dares to touch them or question them, Benedict’s and Francis. God revealed these rules to them and they are not up for grabs.

What is very important here, even more than the content of the Rule of Benedict is the power of that rule in the Catholic Tradition. No one questions Benedict. He tolerated no questions. He was so staunch on this that there are corporal punishments and even imprisonment for those who dared to question the authority of the Prior.

In the Benedictine school, there is no such thing as respect for conscience, interpretations of Canon Law, personal opinions about this council or that form of the mass. Life is very simple.

Conscience is the conscience of the Church expressed through the voice of the abbot. If you are in a conflict with the voice of the abbot, the problem is not with authority. The problem is with you. You have to adjust your conscience. It is your conscience that is malformed. It’s not up for discussion. Benedictines don’t tolerate such nonsense.

Canon Law? What’s that? Canon Law is interpreted in light of the Rule of Benedict. The Church allows them to do so. They are exempt religious. There are few laws that apply to them. They have an exemptioin for 3/4 Canons in the code of Canon Law. This goes to show the resepct and place of honor that the Rule of Benedict has in Catholic Tradition. In the old days, the laity was terrified of the Benedictines. The monks had to follow the rule and the laity could not question it. They simply contributed to the maintenance of the abbey. The abbey contributed to the education of the laity, provided protection and employed the serfs on their lands. It was a symbiotic relationship. If you challenged the monks’ way of life, you could find yourself facing an invading force outside of the monastery walls, without land to farm or without a place to educate your young. They tolerated none of the nonsense that religious today tolerate. Though to tell the truth, the Benedictines still don’t tolerate the nonsense that religious today tolerate.

They deliberately do not make a vow of poverty. This makes them economically independent of the rest of the local Church. They serve to local Church as long as the laity walks to their tune. Otherwise, they pull their monks. They will not disobey Benedict or the abbot to conform to the needs and demands of those around them.

This is a very hard life. These men and women take on the cross by taking on the world. This is why they make a vow of stability. By belonging to one house, even if they live 1500 miles away, everything they do is for the support of that house. This keeps the house alive. Everyone in the house, supports the monk who may be out teaching at a university in another country. It’s a bond of brotherhood that speaks to the world of the bond within the Trinity. You don’t mess with that anymore than you would mess with the Trinity.

 

[JReducation]

Everything is subservient to Liturgy. It’s rather interesting. They are not bound to rubrics. I often see Trads talk about the Monastic Diurnal as an alternative to the Breviary and I chuckle. it shows that some people don’t know the whole story. The Monastic Diurnal, as they call it, is the breviary. However, every abbot has the poewr to write the breviary and the missal for his abbey. Today, what they generally do is to work collaboratively as congregations. This means that several moansteries cooperate on certain things, without abdicating their autonomy. One of the things on which they collaborate is the liturgy. If there are 1500 Benedictine abbeys around the world, there may only be 300 congregations. You could have 300 forms of the Liturgy of the Hours and 300 forms of the mass. Again, the Church does not interfere. This is the right of the abbot granted to Benedict by God. Only a pope can interfere. Those popes who have interfered have been far and few between. Why mess with perfection?

They bring to the Church a testimony of the value of obedience. This testimony is reflected in their liturgical life. They pray as they obey and they obey as they pray. There is an asceticism to their obedience, but there is also a harmony to it, just like their liturgy.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[SuscipeMeDomine]

In light of Br. JR’s info on Benedictine obedience, I want to share chapter 68 of the Rule:

Chapter 68: If a Sister Is Commanded to Do Impossible Things

If it happens
that difficult or impossible tasks are laid on a sister,
let her nevertheless receive the order of the one in authority
with all meekness and obedience.
But if she sees that the weight of the burden
altogether exceeds the limit of her strength,
let her submit the reasons for her inability
to the one who is over her
in a quiet way and at an opportune time,
without pride, resistance, or contradiction.
And if after these representations
the Superior still persists in her decision and command,
let the subject know that this is for her good,
and let her obey out of love,
trusting in the help of God.

What I actually like about this chapter is the instruction for disagreeing with someone in authority: approach the person in a quiet way and at an opportune time, without pride, resistance, or contradiction. And then accept the decision that is made.

This seems to me to be a way of dealing with disagreements in lots of situations including things that happen at church or in the workplace.

 

[rainbow1]

TL,
There is a movie out called “Therese” produced by Leonardo Defilippis…it is wonderful. Defilippis also produced a movie about St.John of the Cross which is very beautiful…
Blessings and peace!

 

[JReducation]

TL,
There is a movie out called “Therese” produced by Leonardo Defilippis…it is wonderful. Defilippis also produced a movie about St.John of the Cross which is very beautiful…
Blessings and peace!

Is it one of those one-man productions? He did one on St. Maximilian Kolbe that the Franciscans hated. It was so saccarine that it almost gave us diabetes. One of the older friars, who was a novice at the time of St. Max’s death, commented,

“It’s a nice story, but not the Friar Maximilian that I knew. The Friar Maximilian that we knew was a very anxious man, restless as well, has a great sense of humor, laughed a great deal, usually talked business not religion, worked very hard and was sick most of the time.”

Spanish TV did a wonderful series on Teresa of Avila. It’s in Spanish with English subtitles. One of the things that I loved about it is that she’s a real woman. She is not saccharine. There is wonderful scene in which John of the Cross plucks her last nerve and she jumps down his throat. He looks at her and says, “I was just asking.” I can imagine those two having this conversation, after reading their letters to each other.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[JReducation]

In light of Br. JR’s info on Benedictine obedience, I want to share chapter 68 of the Rule:

Chapter 68: If a Sister Is Commanded to Do Impossible Things

If it happens
that difficult or impossible tasks are laid on a sister,
let her nevertheless receive the order of the one in authority
with all meekness and obedience.
But if she sees that the weight of the burden
altogether exceeds the limit of her strength,
let her submit the reasons for her inability
to the one who is over her
in a quiet way and at an opportune time,
without pride, resistance, or contradiction.
And if after these representations
the Superior still persists in her decision and command,
let the subject know that this is for her good,
and let her obey out of love,
trusting in the help of God.

What I actually like about this chapter is the instruction for disagreeing with someone in authority: approach the person in a quiet way and at an opportune time, without pride, resistance, or contradiction. And then accept the decision that is made.

This seems to me to be a way of dealing with disagreements in lots of situations including things that happen at church or in the workplace.

It’s important to note here that the sister is not questioning authority. She is communicating to authority what she perceives are her limits. She’s not questioning the wisdom of authority.

Benedict lays out how one goes about this.

What Benedict did not look at with benign eyes was questioning the wisdom of authority. St Francis quotes him in one of the admonitions that he writes for the friars. If you think that you have a better idea or that your superior’s idea is in error. Be quiet and obey. Offer the sacrifice as a penance.

There are two conditions. In the first situation, the issue is that you feel that you cannot do what is commanded, for whatever reasons. In that case, you communicate your limits and then proceed as directed. In the second situation, the issue is that you feel that the superior is in error, for whatever reason. In that case, you say nothing and proceed to do as directed.

In both situations, the key is that you obey without murmurring and complaining and that you treat those in authority with reverence. What these great schools of spirituality and theology introduced into the Church was something that we have cast aside.

We tend to think that authority has to earn our respect. Whereas Benedict’s theology teaches us that the office commands respect. The person holding the office need not earn anything. It’s very interesting how the early monks referred to their superiors. They deliberately used the same term that Jesus uses for God the Father, “Abba” instead of the Latin “Pater”. Hence we get the title Abbot. Even the female superior kees the masculine title. She is not the mother, she is the Abbess. Mother is part of her title, not her office. These superiors occupied the place of the Father.

We see this carried over into dealing with the papacy. The pope’s title was The Lord Pope, from the scriptural Lord. “Holiness” was common for the Patriarchs. That’s why we have “His Holiness N” in the Orthodox Churches as well.

The attitude that the great schools teach us is to revere authority, whether the person in the chair of authority is a saint or a fool. You never speak or think of yourself as a peer. We tend to do that quite often, even when speaking about what the poe said or did. We tend to comment and analyze it as if we were his intellectual peers or as if we were a regal peer.

We need to go back and learn from these traditions. You communicate your limitations, you keep your assessment of the wisdom of authority to yourself and you do what you’re told.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[rainbow1]

Is it one of those one-man productions? He did one on St. Maximilian Kolbe that the Franciscans hated. It was so saccarine that it almost gave us diabetes. One of the older friars, who was a novice at the time of St. Max’s death, commented,

“It’s a nice story, but not the Friar Maximilian that I knew. The Friar Maximilian that we knew was a very anxious man, restless as well, has a great sense of humor, laughed a great deal, usually talked business not religion, worked very hard and was sick most of the time.”

Spanish TV did a wonderful series on Teresa of Avila. It’s in Spanish with English subtitles. One of the things that I loved about it is that she’s a real woman. She is not saccharine. There is wonderful scene in which John of the Cross plucks her last nerve and she jumps down his throat. He looks at her and says, “I was just asking.” I can imagine those two having this conversation, after reading their letters to each other.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

Br.Jay,
So saccarine it almost gave you diabetes? You made me laugh!
What is the title for the books of letters between Teresa of Avila and St.John of the Cross? Have got to read that! I so love the book of Letters written by Padre Pio…whenever life gets tough that book gets pulled out…it is such a comfort to see how he dealt with such difficulties…
Blessings!

 

[kitkatty]

I am Byzantine but the Western spirituality of the Carmelite Saints Theresa of Avila and John of the Cross seems to resonate with me. I read the Way of Perfection and I think Theresa of Avila is one of the wittiest saints ever. Thanks so much Brother JR for your informative posts on Catholic spirtualities.

 

[JReducation]

Br.Jay,
So saccarine it almost gave you diabetes? You made me laugh!
What is the title for the books of letters between Teresa of Avila and St.John of the Cross? Have got to read that! I so love the book of Letters written by Padre Pio…whenever life gets tough that book gets pulled out…it is such a comfort to see how he dealt with such difficulties…
Blessings!

I have never seen their letters in one single volume. I did my doctorate in Teresian and Franciscan Spiritual Theology. I read the letters, but they were in many different sources in libraries in Spain.

I am Byzantine but the Western spirituality of the Carmelite Saints Theresa of Avila and John of the Cross seems to resonate with me. I read the Way of Perfection and I think Theresa of Avila is one of the wittiest saints ever. Thanks so much Brother JR for your informative posts on Catholic spirtualities.

Teresa, like the great masters of Catholic Tradition, had a wonderful sense of humor. She also had a sharpness about her. You couldn’t pull one over on her.

One of her great contributions to Catholic Tradition, which is not appreciated by most Traditionalists or mentioned by them is Theology of Detachment. What she did was to take from the ancient Carmelites in Palestine and from the Franciscans, especially from Francisco of Osuna and Peter of Alcantara and she brings it all together in a manner that was easy for the common man to understand and follow.

But the practical application of detachment is what most Traditionalists resist. At the end of the day, Teresa explains that one must never become attached to a way of prayer, even a liturgical expression. You must allow God to take over and lead you. You cannot confine God to a system or a ritual.

She certainly did not downplay reverence in liturgy, but she did teach her nuns to be practical. We see that pragmatism in her liturgical life. This is a simple example, but to some people it’s a big deal. They were not allowed to have organs (not vital organs , musical ones). However, she introduced the use of the guitar into the liturgy. She herself was a guitarist. She wrote several hymns in Spanish that were used in their liturgy. This is very important. This was the 16th century when every monastic order was using Gregorian chant. Teresa was merging Gregorian chant with Spanish folk music. It would be like us using Gregorian chant for the parts of the mass and a contemporary Christian piece for the Communion rite.

The focus is not her use of music, but her attitude. She is not attached to the externals. She attaches herself to the divine. Her hymns, her poems and her use of the guitar is all about surrendering one’s gifts to God. The soul that is detached holds nothing back, but sees the good in all the gifts that God has given us and places those gifts at God’s disposal. They don’t belong to us. They belong to God. She focussed on changing a mindset. The whole idea of a “serious Catholicism” drove her nuts. She had no tolerance for the pious people of her time. She was very critical of piety and the pious. She deliberately avoided such Catholics. She once said, “God preseve me from sour faced saints.”

There was a time when she said that a nun who could not laugh in church was a troubled soul. She would actually sit at mass and laugh hysterically. She often found some of what she heard in the Sripture to be humorous. THAT is faith, when you can take the Scripture so personally that you find humor, joy, sadness, hope and inspiration in the Word of God.

You can have all of the right external elements and still have an attachment to them. Then you’re not worshipping God. You’re worshipping the means. Teresa was very careful never to make the means an end. While she protected her nuns and friars and challenged them to be faithful to the Carmelite spiritual and ascetical tradition, like Francis of Assisi, she stresses that at the end of the day, none of these practices are going to save us without the proper virtues in place. These practices are a means to come before God and offer our virtues and our sins, but the essence is the offering, not how we offer. Her liturgical life was about the human condition meeting the divine.

As my Carmelite brethren will tell you, the Carmelite rite is rather bland in comparison to the Roman rite. The Carmelite School stresses that the beauty of the liturgical life is in the soul not in the rite. Teresa drove this home to her nuns and friars. She draws the method from Francisco of Osuna, who was a Franciscan, the austerity from the hermits of Mt. Carmel and the virtues from the Gospel.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[GraceSofia]

There is a movie out called “Therese” produced by Leonardo Defilippis…it is wonderful.

Is it one of those one-man productions? He did one on St. Maximilian Kolbe that the Franciscans hated. It was so saccarine that it almost gave us diabetes.

I have this Therese film! It is a bit over the top sappy, but I loved it anyway.
The only thing that I didn’t like was all the sisters sitting around her bed while she coughed TB coughs all over them. I kept worrying the whole convent died.
However, it illustrates well how she loved the annoying sister, didn’t protest her innocence when unfairly blamed, and also how her childhood and being raised in the faith influenced her life. As NOT a cradle Catholic, that sort of insight into Catholic family life fascinates me. Because of the film, I bought Archbp Sheen’s book on St. Therese, which is very good.

 

[sean1i0]

I would like to ask a question about these spiritualities that I have not seen answered yet. If I were to go up to a Franciscan, a Dominican, a Benedictine, and a Carmelite and asked them what the best thing I could do to build up a private prayer life (methods of prayer, etc.), i.e. kind of a private rule of prayer for the layman or woman, what are each of them most likely to answer? I know some very brief or broad answers, but I’m never sure which answer is for a consecrated religious and which is for laity.

Thanks!
Sean

 

[JReducation]

I would like to ask a question about these spiritualities that I have not seen answered yet. If I were to go up to a Franciscan, a Dominican, a Benedictine, and a Carmelite and asked them what the best thing I could do to build up a private prayer life (methods of prayer, etc.), i.e. kind of a private rule of prayer for the layman or woman, what are each of them most likely to answer? I know some very brief or broad answers, but I’m never sure which answer is for a consecrated religious and which is for laity.

Thanks!
Sean

Each of us is an individual. I would direct you to Introduction to the Devout Life by St. Francis de Sales. De Sales was a secular priest. Probably, better than most religious, he understood the spiritual life of the secular man and woman.

If you asked specifically about the Franciscan life, then I would point you to some Franciscan writings.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[sean1i0]

Br. Jay, thank you for that recommendation. Which writings would be appropriate for interest concerning the Franciscan life?

Also, thank you to all for the thoughts on the Carmelite spirituality. This thread and the Perfect Joy of St. Francis thread have been enormous trees of spiritual fruit for me.

In Christ,
Sean