Spirituality of religious orders in Catholic tradition

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They translate it as Father. Sometimes you’ll see Fra. Raniero, which is the Latin abbreviation for Frater. The Americans still translate it to Father.
Reminds me of an interesting incident that happened almost exactly two years ago at the last Benedictine Oblates’ World Congress in Rome. After a presentation on inter-religious dialogue, at question period, a French oblate rose and made a comment that “like us, the Muslims venerate the Virgin Mary”. Since French is my mother tongue I was listening to him directly in French, instead of on the simultaneous translation headphones. I became aware of a hubbub in the crowd. Turns out the translator had, in English, rendered the phrase “like us, the Muslims worship the Virgin Mary”. It caused a huge controversy among the large number of American delegates. I couldn’t figure out what was going on and neither could the poor gentleman who made the comment. He finally figured it out when someone told him how wrong he was to say that we worship the Virgin Mary. He replied to the American condemning him “but I never said that!”.

It finally became clear that the translator had made as simple mistake. The French oblate felt badly enough about it that he asked to make a statement on the microphone at lunch, and since his English was excellent he set the record straight.

It had me wondering though, if such a simple statement at a conference caused so much controversy, how many wars were started by a mis-translation?
 
She and I are both recent converts so lots of things that may be common for someone like yourself who is highly educated in the faith are interesting to newbies like us. 😉 Particularly things like this which are not covered as part of the RCIA process.

In fact, I would go so far to say that many long time Catholics find it interesting as well. All you have to do is take a look at the number of threads on secular/third orders in recent months or search on Catholic spirituality to find the same thing. I don’t get the impression that many people, even clergy or long time highly active Catholics know much about religious and their spiritual approach. I think that many of the same are actually searching for this sort of thing, some without even knowing it. Take a look on Amazon sometime at the number of books on “spirituality according to xyz order” or which are titled “praying with xyz” and you will see the same thing.

The activity and involvement of of the laity, from everyone I speak to about the subject, appears to be on the up swing. With that increase in involvement comes a search for a way or an approach if you will to proceed in their own continued formation in the faith. While many are turning to newer lay groups, many also seem to be going back in the tradition of the Church to groups such as yours to find a way of structuring their lives according to God’s plan and while doing so, making sure they are being faithful to the Magesterium in the process. In fact, I think many of the faithful are starving for it.

I’m not sure if you are noticing that same trend or not. I have talked to multiple priests, deacons, and religious and almost to a person they claim that they are noticing something along those lines. I’m not sure I am explaining it all that well so I hope my point is coming across accurately.
Ahhh, now I see why it would be interesting. I guess I never thought of it that way before.

I also see many lay people seeking to learn more about the faith and about Catholic tradition. I lead a group of such men. It started with one fellow asking me questions. He brought a friend and that one brought another and in two months we had 12 guys to whom I teach philosophy and theology every Monday night.

The problem that I’m having with them is that I am finding that I have to deprogram their “Americanism” out of them. They have a difficult time seeing the big picture or what I call the global picture. The tendency is to try to think about the Church using the same rules that they use for civil discourse. It does not work.

The traditions of Catholic orders are a composite of many schools of philosophy, many cultural experiences, many historical contexts and exegesis all packaged into different schools. They’re all grounded in the same values and truth, but they are very unique expressions of that truth and those values.

Our American mind has trouble with anything that is so diverse. We’re very rigid thinkers. Everything has to fit the way we think and the way we do things. We try to do to religious orders and their respective schools of spirituality what we do to those cultures that we conquer. We try to impose our American values and our American way.

This question about titles is an excellent example. We tend to think of clergy and religious in a very utilitarian fashion, because we are a utilitarian society. We value things and people basd on what they give us. The more they give us, the more value they have in our estimation. Therefore, we place a higher value on a child who becomes a doctor or a lawyer than on one who becomes a geography teacher or a butcher.

When we look at clergy and religious, we need to know who is the guy that can celebrate mass and hear confessions.

It’s important to understand that the greatest ministry of the Church is the Eucharist and the absolution of sins. But there is a difference between a ministry and a way of life. Also, there are many necessary ministries, along with this particular ministry.

I have found, among the men that I’m educating that they never thought about separating ministry and way of life. That’s because in our American society, we equate the two. A boy grows up to be a doctor. So we say.

The truth is that a boy grows up to be a man. Being a physician is a role in society, albeit a very necessary and helpful role, but it is not a man.

The same happens with the boy who grows up to be priest. Not true. He grows up to be a man, a good man. A good man cam become a good priest. God calls good men to be priests. But you must first be a good man.

When speaking of religious, the wording changes. A monk, nun, sister, friar or clerk regular is not a role. It’s a way of living the Gospel based on one of those schools that I spoke about. To understand what he or she is about, you have to understand the school by which he lives the Gospel. He can be a priest, but need not be. You don’t need to be a priest to live the Gospel as a monk or friar. The priesthood is his place in the Church and it defines his ministry or his service to the people of God. Being a monk or friar defines how he lives, not how he serves. It’s a whole other concept that has to be studied separately and appreicated separately. To do this, one has to learn to think globally instead of linear.
 
Reminds me of an interesting incident that happened almost exactly two years ago at the last Benedictine Oblates’ World Congress in Rome. After a presentation on inter-religious dialogue, at question period, a French oblate rose and made a comment that “like us, the Muslims venerate the Virgin Mary”. Since French is my mother tongue I was listening to him directly in French, instead of on the simultaneous translation headphones. I became aware of a hubbub in the crowd. Turns out the translator had, in English, rendered the phrase “like us, the Muslims worship the Virgin Mary”. It caused a huge controversy among the large number of American delegates. I couldn’t figure out what was going on and neither could the poor gentleman who made the comment. He finally figured it out when someone told him how wrong he was to say that we worship the Virgin Mary. He replied to the American condemning him “but I never said that!”.

It finally became clear that the translator had made as simple mistake. The French oblate felt badly enough about it that he asked to make a statement on the microphone at lunch, and since his English was excellent he set the record straight.

It had me wondering though, if such a simple statement at a conference caused so much controversy, how many wars were started by a mis-translation?
This happens a lot in theology. I was trying to explain to a poster that the pope cannot declare an evil a necessary good. He or she was not getting it. He/she kept asking me, if the pope can make a mistake. I kept explaining that he can, but he cannot declare an evil a moral good.

The wording was just not getting through. The person is not separating the word mistake from the word evil.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
Thank you!

I am interested because I feel that one thing that is lacking in some parishes is good homilies. I love me some good preaching!
I would agree with that. I need all of the spiritual direction I can get and a good homily is a wonderful way to get it.

We are very fortunate in our parish that our pastor is a very dedicated preacher. He really opens up the scriptures, interjects humor, and isn’t afraid to call people out once and a while.

We just moved a new location and have only lived here for a couple of months. As such, when we first got here we had tried out a couple of different parishes. When we got to the one we ended up joining, my wife and I looked at each other after the homily and just mouthed “wow” to each other. The homily wasn’t particularly long, maybe 10 minutes tops, but it was real meaty. You could just tell that he had put a good deal of time and preparation into it. There were a couple of other parishes we could have tried out and we had intended to go back to the first one again, but we never went anywhere else after that morning. The best part is that our priest is brand new to the parish also so we should have him for a good long while. 👍
 
This video does a nice job of highlighting Dominican spirituality within the context of the lives of the various branches of the Order of Preachers, specifically the Nuns, Friars, Apostolic Sisters, Laity, and Volunteers International.

blip.tv/gospel-in-action/general-promoters-report-to-the-chapter-rome-2010-4366225
What an awesome video.

I believe it is so important to share the Gospel and not just keep it for ourselves.

Are there any Dominicans who celebrate the EF or an older form?
 
Very interesting. Thanks!

But most Dominican-run parishes celebrate the OF right?
I think like the Franciscans, a Dominican friar has to ask for permission to celebrate the Dominican Rite of Mass from his superiors. However, like what the article said, several Dominican parishes in the US has begun celebrating the Dominican Rite of the Mass.
 
Very interesting thread. The other day, i decided that i wish to become a Lay Dominican. Probably i have like 2-4 years ahead of studying, prayers and learning. But if that is what it takes, then it will be so.

Thanks to brother JR for great insight and information. 👍
 
Very interesting thread. The other day, i decided that i wish to become a Lay Dominican. Probably i have like 2-4 years ahead of studying, prayers and learning. But if that is what it takes, then it will be so.

Thanks to brother JR for great insight and information. 👍
You’re welcome
Very interesting. Thanks!

But most Dominican-run parishes celebrate the OF right?
Not most. However, many of their friars do have permission to celebrate either the EF or the Dominican Rite. They’re not the same.

Only secular priests can celebrate the EF for the public without permission. Regular priests must follow the laws of their religious communities. In the event that there is no regulation in the constitution of the community, it’s up to the major superior. Major Superiors are Superiors General and Provincial Superiors.

Most superiors willingly give permission to celebrate it for the general public. What they don’t want to do is to have it become the regular community mass. Or to turn entire parishes into EF only parishes. This creates a problem with assignments. The number of communities that have the EF as the community mass is deliberately small.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
This happens a lot in theology. I was trying to explain to a poster that the pope cannot declare an evil a necessary good. He or she was not getting it. He/she kept asking me, if the pope can make a mistake. I kept explaining that he can, but he cannot declare an evil a moral good.

The wording was just not getting through. The person is not separating the word mistake from the word evil.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
Hey Brother, could you give a small list of Franciscan Communities that preach in the streets? That’s something I’ve always dreamed of myself, but the only order I’ve found that does it is the Franciscan Friars of the Renewal.
 
Hey Brother, could you give a small list of Franciscan Communities that preach in the streets? That’s something I’ve always dreamed of myself, but the only order I’ve found that does it is the Franciscan Friars of the Renewal.
Franciscans of the Primitive Observance, Capuchin Franciscans, Franciscans of Peace, Franciscans of Life, I’m sure that there are others, but these are the ones that I know from the USA.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
There’s a lot of spiritualties that have similarities. I was debating on making a Visio flow chart at one point showcasing that.

The Dominicans and Franciscans have a lot in common, and have great mutual respect with one another. This goes all the way back to the founding of both Orders, and continues today. Even in things like the Litany of the Saints, we have Dominic and Francis mentioned together.

The Benedictines are like the Franciscans in that they have an emphasis on community and obedience (with a side of obedience), and heavy on the contemplative. Carmalites are even more into the contemplative.

Falling some place in there are the Jesuits and Ignatian spirituality, which has it’s own thing.'s

Several Dominicans actually participate in some of the festivities/activities surrounding the October 3rd/4th, and Fra
As a Benedictine, I can say that we do emphasis Community, but no more than any other order. As Benedictines, our focus is the “Opus Dei”, the “Work of God” which is the Liturgy. In the Holy Rule, St. Benedict makes a point to emphasize the importance of the “Opus Dei” that “…nothing should come before the Work of God.” As Benedictines, our only “official” charism or ministry IS the Opus Dei. Anything else, nursing, teaching, social work, depends on the needs of the Church and the talents of the monks/sisters. We also have a special love/emphasis on “hospitality”. So, if you’re ever in need of a warm meal, warm bed to sleep in, stop by the Benedictines! The Holy Rule is very simple. St. Benedict intended it to be. He formulated the Holy Rule particularly to appeal to those men who could not live by the severe austerities of the other religious orders of the time. Any family could easily implement its tenets…it is that simple. I hope this helps a little.
 
Dear All

Thanks for this great thread. I haven’t yet read it all, so please forgive me if I raise points that have already been covered.

If it was the issues of authority and truth that brought me into the “one true fold of the Redeemer”, it’s perhaps the depth and breadth of Catholic spirituality that keeps me here.

Two questions:
  1. I don’t want to demur from the positive approbation that has been paid to obedience- it is certainly badly needed in our world. I am a Catholic and a psychologist. Stanley Milgram’s experiments on obedience following WWII showed, starkly, how open to misuse it can be. In secular society we then saw, in the 1960s and 1970s a move away from deference and ‘obedience’ towards the assertion of rights and conscience. Meanwhile, in religious orders, obedience was conserved. This was the case, arguably, in religious orders where abuse was taking place and the superiors opted to conceal it. I am troubled by the notion that conscience is invalidated by the vow of obedience. Please can anyone comment on this further? Is there a religious order whose spirtuality allowed, even encouraged, its members to speak out against abuse where it was taking place?
  2. How would the spirtuality of the Oratory fit into the discussion? I’m conscious that Blessed John Henry Newman chose St Philip Neri as his spiritual Father as well as St Francis de Sales. Perhaps, rather, St Philip and St Francis de Sales chose Newman. From a human point of view, what were his reasons for choosing this spirituality and what are the implications for those of us who fall under the patronage of Blessed JHN, as converts from Anglicanism?
Many thanks in advance,

Our Lord bless you.
 
Dear All

Thanks for this great thread. I haven’t yet read it all, so please forgive me if I raise points that have already been covered.

If it was the issues of authority and truth that brought me into the “one true fold of the Redeemer”, it’s perhaps the depth and breadth of Catholic spirituality that keeps me here.

Two questions:
  1. I don’t want to demur from the positive approbation that has been paid to obedience- it is certainly badly needed in our world. I am a Catholic and a psychologist. Stanley Milgram’s experiments on obedience following WWII showed, starkly, how open to misuse it can be. In secular society we then saw, in the 1960s and 1970s a move away from deference and ‘obedience’ towards the assertion of rights and conscience. Meanwhile, in religious orders, obedience was conserved. This was the case, arguably, in religious orders where abuse was taking place and the superiors opted to conceal it. I am troubled by the notion that conscience is invalidated by the vow of obedience. Please can anyone comment on this further? Is there a religious order whose spirtuality allowed, even encouraged, its members to speak out against abuse where it was taking place?
  2. How would the spirtuality of the Oratory fit into the discussion? I’m conscious that Blessed John Henry Newman chose St Philip Neri as his spiritual Father as well as St Francis de Sales. Perhaps, rather, St Philip and St Francis de Sales chose Newman. From a human point of view, what were his reasons for choosing this spirituality and what are the implications for those of us who fall under the patronage of Blessed JHN, as converts from Anglicanism?
Many thanks in advance,

Our Lord bless you.
 
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