Spirituality of religious orders in Catholic tradition

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Great thread.

I have wondered how the Order of Cistercians of the Strict Observance differ from the Cistercians generally. I know they are of the Benedictine family, although, I am ignorant of how they differ from the rest of the Benedictines, including Cistercians.

Also, do Trappist normally have lay orders?

I am curious because, in my family, - as far as I can trace my Norman-Irish ancestry - those whom have become religious, have been of this order, and several of them were credited with founding a few monasteries near Lebanon, Kentucky, and also St. Clements, Maryland . So I of course am curious why this order has been so attractive to my ancestors. Any details is appreciated in advance.
 
All of the above. 😉
I am not an expert about Dominicans, but I was educated by them and there is a huge order of them not too far from our monastery. I believe that at one time, teaching of the Faith entailed preaching in the streets. However, that has not been the case for many years. Dominicans are typically dedicated to teaching now. That is their form of Preaching today. They do it well, let me tell you! I had a better education in high school with Dominicans than I received in college and post-graduate. I use what I learned from them in high school more than any of the dribble I learned from college professors. But, that is just my opinion and my experience. One Dominican motto is: VERITAS. That means “truth”.
 
Is that so?😦
Although they do teach often and run schools (we have one in my city), I assure you they still do preaching elsewhere. Especially at the pulpit!

Lay Dominicans are called to preach as well. I do such things with the youth ministry I’m involved in.

“It is not by the display of power and pomp, cavalcades of retainers, and richly-houseled palfreys, or by gorgeous apparel, that the heretics win proselytes; it is by zealous preaching, by apostolic humility, by austerity, by seeming, it is true, but by seeming holiness. Zeal must be met by zeal, humility by humility, false sanctity by real sanctity, preaching falsehood by preaching truth”
 
Although they do teach often and run schools (we have one in my city), I assure you they still do preaching elsewhere. Especially at the pulpit!

Lay Dominicans are called to preach as well. I do such things with the youth ministry I’m involved in.
👍

Is every lay person on CAF aside from oralabora a lay Dominican? 😛
 
👍

Is every lay person on CAF aside from oralabora a lay Dominican? 😛
Actually, jwinch2 has started his formation. I’ll be meeting with the head of the local priory soon to discuss beginning mine. So there’s going to be at least two!

The Vocations section of the board is a very rich place. People with all kinds of vocations post there, even married people like me! You should drop by there some time, I think you’d like it.
 
Actually, jwinch2 has started his formation. I’ll be meeting with the head of the local priory soon to discuss beginning mine. So there’s going to be at least two!

The Vocations section of the board is a very rich place. People with all kinds of vocations post there, even married people like me! You should drop by there some time, I think you’d like it.
Thanks for the suggestion. I will!
 
Thanks for the suggestion. I will!
One of the hardest things for someone who just comes into the Church is to keep up the momentum. It’s been that way 2000 years or so. I know this first hand, we dropped the ball in this area when it came to my wife.

I really encourage you to strike while the iron is hot. Dive into some of what has been discussed in this thread. Think about what appeals to you. I know you prefer more traditional practices, so investigate what kind of traditional devotions and practices there are. But also; see if there’s a spirituality that can fit that. Find Saints who do and read their work. And if they have a secular orders or a lay organization, run towards it. The vocations board might be able to help you with that*.

You’re at a great place right now, don’t stop running.

*Note; I’m biased towards the Lay Dominicans and Secular Franciscans, but you probably already knew that. But there’s a lot of other great groups as well! OraL has chimed in about his earlier.
 
Is that so?😦
You seem disappointed. Why so?
I am not an expert about Dominicans, but I was educated by them and there is a huge order of them not too far from our monastery. I believe that at one time, teaching of the Faith entailed preaching in the streets. However, that has not been the case for many years. Dominicans are typically dedicated to teaching now. That is their form of Preaching today. They do it well, let me tell you! I had a better education in high school with Dominicans than I received in college and post-graduate. I use what I learned from them in high school more than any of the dribble I learned from college professors. But, that is just my opinion and my experience. One Dominican motto is: VERITAS. That means “truth”.
Thank you Sister, for sharing. The Dominicans are great teachers and through their teaching, they preach. For the sake of the laymen and women who are reading this, it is important to understand that teaching was the Dominican’s primary means of preaching since they were founded in the 13th century.

People often think of the Dominican friars going out there on a street corner and getting on a soapbox. I think most Dominicans would be horrified at the thought. This model of preaching, street preaching as it is often called or popular preaching, was the domain of Franciscans, not Dominicans. Dominicans preached from the pulpit. That’s why they’re an order of priests, whereas the Franciscans are not (though we have many priests). The priesthood was necessary for the Dominican Friars, because they were going to be sent to the pulpits to preach during mass. Many were sent ot the great universities: Paris, Oxford, Salamanca, Padua, Rome and later to the great universities of the Americas. They also went to the missions, especially to Asia and the Americas.
Great thread.

I have wondered how the Order of Cistercians of the Strict Observance differ from the Cistercians generally. I know they are of the Benedictine family, although, I am ignorant of how they differ from the rest of the Benedictines, including Cistercians.

Also, do Trappist normally have lay orders?

I am curious because, in my family, - as far as I can trace my Norman-Irish ancestry - those whom have become religious, have been of this order, and several of them were credited with founding a few monasteries near Lebanon, Kentucky, and also St. Clements, Maryland . So I of course am curious why this order has been so attractive to my ancestors. Any details is appreciated in advance.
I believe they have oblates, not a Third Order. That’s not common to the Benedictine tradition.
Dear All

Thanks for this great thread. I haven’t yet read it all, so please forgive me if I raise points that have already been covered.

If it was the issues of authority and truth that brought me into the “one true fold of the Redeemer”, it’s perhaps the depth and breadth of Catholic spirituality that keeps me here.

Two questions:
  1. I don’t want to demur from the positive approbation that has been paid to obedience- it is certainly badly needed in our world. I am a Catholic and a psychologist. Stanley Milgram’s experiments on obedience following WWII showed, starkly, how open to misuse it can be. In secular society we then saw, in the 1960s and 1970s a move away from deference and ‘obedience’ towards the assertion of rights and conscience. Meanwhile, in religious orders, obedience was conserved. This was the case, arguably, in religious orders where abuse was taking place and the superiors opted to conceal it. I am troubled by the notion that conscience is invalidated by the vow of obedience. Please can anyone comment on this further? Is there a religious order whose spirtuality allowed, even encouraged, its members to speak out against abuse where it was taking place?
Obedience does not mean that one cooperate in sin. Obedience means that one submits in all things, even if they seem unpleasant or even foolish; but this does not include sin. Anyone who knows of a sin being committed and allows it to happen is not being obedience, he is being something else.
  1. How would the spirtuality of the Oratory fit into the discussion? I’m conscious that Blessed John Henry Newman chose St Philip Neri as his spiritual Father as well as St Francis de Sales. Perhaps, rather, St Philip and St Francis de Sales chose Newman. From a human point of view, what were his reasons for choosing this spirituality and what are the implications for those of us who fall under the patronage of Blessed JHN, as converts from Anglicanism?
The Oratorians gave secular priests the benefit of community life without the obligations of the vowed life.

Fraternally,

Br.JR, OSF 🙂
 
I believe that at one time, teaching of the Faith entailed preaching in the streets. However, that has not been the case for many years. Dominicans are typically dedicated to teaching now. That is their form of Preaching today. T
Hi Sister! Thanks for being a part of this thread.

To your points,

Dominicans of today still have a variety of preaching apostolates in addition to teaching in schools. As you correctly noted, many of the sisters are indeed teaching as their primary form of preaching, and from all accounts, they are excellent at it! However, within the sisters of the order, there a variety of ways they live the preaching and teaching aspect of the order. Particular groups of sisters, for example the Dominican Sisters of Mary Mother of the Eucharist are dedicated to teaching but another group the Vietnamese Dominican Sisters who recently came to Fort Worth spend much of their time working with the poor and immigrants. In addition, the Racine Dominican Sisters spend much of their time in prison ministry and on issues of social justice and teaching of the poor while the Dominican Sisters of St. Cecilia teach, but much of their teaching is focused on training Catechists to help spread the faith in addition to their time in the classroom.

Also, here is an example of some of the preaching apostolates which the Friars of the Southern Province are involved in. opsouth.org/our_ministry/more/ministries/

A group of Dominicans in South Africa just started a Catholic Radio Station. curia.op.org/en/index.php/eng/news/704-south-africa-catholic-radio-station-licensed

Dominicans are doing work in educating people but they are doing so in a rather unique way! Rather than in the classroom, some Dominicans are working to help educate those who are homeless work on the streets rather than being in school. I’ve heard of street preaching but that was the first time I had heard of street teaching!

There are Dominicans who go to countries ravaged by war to live out their preaching mission. krakow2004.dominikanie.pl/enghomilies.php?txt=capitulum/en/hom/speech02.html

Having said all of that, I would imagine that while classroom teaching will likely always be a big part of the Dominican mission, particularly for the Sisters, many are taking things in other directions and finding new ways to live their life within the order.

One of my goals for a ministry going forward is to develop a tutoring program for disadvantaged youth to help them succeed in primary and secondary school. I feel that it would combine the teaching mission of the order, my own skills as a professor, along with service to the poor. Once I am further in my formation, I am planning to talk to our chapter moderator and see if it might be a good idea. A Friar I am in contact with liked it and suggested that I pursue it so I am hopeful that it might be something worth while. 🤷 Who knows? If it is God’s will, I guess it will happen. If not, i’m sure He will make His plans known to me sometime down the road. 🙂

Thanks again Sister, and God Bless you!

Jason
 
One of the hardest things for someone who just comes into the Church is to keep up the momentum. It’s been that way 2000 years or so. I know this first hand, we dropped the ball in this area when it came to my wife.

I really encourage you to strike while the iron is hot. Dive into some of what has been discussed in this thread. Think about what appeals to you. I know you prefer more traditional practices, so investigate what kind of traditional devotions and practices there are. But also; see if there’s a spirituality that can fit that. Find Saints who do and read their work. And if they have a secular orders or a lay organization, run towards it. The vocations board might be able to help you with that*.

You’re at a great place right now, don’t stop running.

*Note; I’m biased towards the Lay Dominicans and Secular Franciscans, but you probably already knew that. But there’s a lot of other great groups as well! OraL has chimed in about his earlier.
Thank you. What a touching post.

I am eating everything up. Right now I’m reading St Augustine’s Confessions and Jwinch graciously recommended two books on St Dominic and Dominican Spirituality. Brother JR told me about the Perfect Joy of St Francis (what a blessing that was), OraLabora gave some suggestions about Benedictine spirituality and I read the Rule of St Benedict.

Whew!

My issue is that I do prefer something more traditional. But am I not too new to be looking at secular orders?
 
Thank you. What a touching post.

I am eating everything up. Right now I’m reading St Augustine’s Confessions and Jwinch graciously recommended two books on St Dominic and Dominican Spirituality. Brother JR told me about the Perfect Joy of St Francis (what a blessing that was), OraLabora gave some suggestions about Benedictine spirituality and I read the Rule of St Benedict.

Whew!

My issue is that I do prefer something more traditional. But am I not too new to be looking at secular orders?
Some would say yes. I would say that you’re not obligated to join them right away, so there’s no harm in just looking. I spent seven years or so knowing I was to join a secular order, but I put it off. Turns out there was a reason for that; I was called to one that wasn’t the original one I was intending on joining.

You can LOOK at them and start practicing their spirituality before beginning formation. Looking back at my life I’ve been practicing Dominican spirituality for the last eight years!

EDIT: Here’s another book to add to your list. St. Catherine’s Dialogue. There’s a reason she’s a Doctor of the Church. I just started reading it; fantastic. It truly brings mysticism to Dominican spirituality.
 
Some would say yes. I would say that you’re not obligated to join them right away, so there’s no harm in just looking. I spent seven years or so knowing I was to join a secular order, but I put it off. Turns out there was a reason for that; I was called to one that wasn’t the original one I was intending on joining.

You can LOOK at them and start practicing their spirituality before beginning formation. Looking back at my life I’ve been practicing Dominican spirituality for the last eight years!
I see. Thanks for clearing that up.

You don’t have to tell me twice. 🙂
 
You can LOOK at them and start practicing their spirituality before beginning formation. Looking back at my life I’ve been practicing Dominican spirituality for the last eight years!
Excellent points as always.

In the diocese I just came from, there was a priest who was just ordained right before we moved. He started seminary only a half year or so after coming through RCIA. With most people I think it probably better to wait a bit before starting but there are always exceptions to those things. If you have people who go out of their way to study various spiritualities read, PRAY, etc. then I don’t see the problem with them not waiting. If you have someone who has read dozens of books on the Faith and has thousands of posts on Catholic Answers before even being confirmed in the faith, they have likely done their homework! Does that sounds like anyone we know? 😉

Peace,
 
👍

Is every lay person on CAF aside from oralabora a lay Dominican? 😛
Naw, those of us who are into the O.P. are just harder to shut up! 😃

I have seen many Secular Fransiscans on here, Carmelites, etc. I think it is a wonderful ting for those who have that vocation.

My biggest issue is that I think the vast majority of the faithful are not even aware that there are such things. I believe that there would be many more vocations to lay orders if it were more widely known.
 
Excellent points as always.

In the diocese I just came from, there was a priest who was just ordained right before we moved. He started seminary only a half year or so after coming through RCIA. With most people I think it probably better to wait a bit before starting but there are always exceptions to those things. If you have people who go out of their way to study various spiritualities read, PRAY, etc. then I don’t see the problem with them not waiting. If you have someone who has read dozens of books on the Faith and has thousands of posts on Catholic Answers before even being confirmed in the faith, they have likely done their homework! Does that sounds like anyone we know? 😉

Peace,
:o
 
Naw, those of us who are into the O.P. are just harder to shut up! 😃
The order has PREACHER right in the title. It’s not like we’re trying to surprise people with what we do 🙂
I have seen many Secular Fransiscans on here, Carmelites, etc. I think it is a wonderful ting for those who have that vocation.
Agreed, which is why I think it’s great we’re having these kinds of conversations.
My biggest issue is that I think the vast majority of the faithful are not even aware that there are such things. I believe that there would be many more vocations to lay orders if it were more widely known.
This is SO true. We have tonnes of people who go to the Dominican run college here, and people are SHOCKED that there is the Lay Dominicans.
 
My issue is that I do prefer something more traditional. But am I not too new to be looking at secular orders?
You can’t get more traditional than Benedictines, Carmelites, Dominicans and Franciscans. The youngest are the Franciscans and they’ve been around for 800 years.

You want to be careful. There is a difference between Traditionalist and Traditional. What to us is Franciscan, Carmelite, Benedictine, or Dominican tradition, to many Traditionalists is not traditional enough. There is a reason for this.

After Vatican I, which ended in 1870, but was not officially closed until 1960, whole other story, the above named orders made many changes that turned out to be great for the laity and tragic for the orders. They were great for the laity, because many friars and monks were ordained and many were assigned to new parishes. You had parishes springing up all over the place thanks to the explosion of new priests. Also, there was an explosion of sisters, especially teaching and nursing sisters.

By 1950s, we all knew that we had made some horrible choices. We were no longer the orders that we had been up to the 19th century. We had become something different. The work we were doing was good and needed to be done, but not by us. The large numbers of priests was also good, but not for us. Religious houses were turning into rectories and friars were turning into diocesan priests, very much like the FSSP and SSPX of today. This way of life is fine for them, because they do not live a consecrated life, but it’s not fine for the consecrated religious.

When the renewal of religious life began, some people misunderstood the word renewal to mean “to plunge forward into some new unknown”. Don’t ask me what they were thinking, because I’m still trying to figure that out.

There were many who understood that renewal meant to go back to the origins and to drop everything that was not part of the original vision of the founder and the first generation of religious in each community.

Whether you went back 100 years to before Vatican I or you plunged into some unknown new invention, the consequences were pretty much the same. The laity and religious who were born after 1870 only knew the Carmelites, Franciscans, Dominicans and Benedictines of their time. To them, it looked like we were destroying everything that was tradition. They rebelled.

I have to restate, there was definitely nonsense going on. There were definitely religious who were not going back, but going down. Putting those turkeys aside, the rest of us who were trying to go back have met with a great deal of resistance from the Traditionalist camp. For two big reasons, I believe.

First, many men and women left. They left, because this new and revised version of religious life was not the community they joined. Even if it was the original model of St. Benedict, Dominic or Francis, it was new to these people. They became upset, frustrated, hurt, confused and other. I was one of them. I left after 14 years. It took me almost 25 years to come back to religious life. It finally dawned on me that the recovery was necessary. I like the word recovery better than renewal, since the word “new” in there gives some people apoplexies. The Traditionalists blamed it all on “modernism”. What they did not realize is that what they called “modernism” had been around for centuries and had been set aside in 1870. For example, priests took over the running of religious orders. If you were not a priest, you were a houseboy.

Every priest, religious or secular, was on 24/7. This was never the case before. Friars and monks lived for their particular vocation. Monks lived to pray. If they had other duties outside, they worked them in around their life of liturgy. Friars lived to be brothers and to contemplate. If you were a Franciscan or Carmelite, you did not have to be a priest to engage in the work of the order. If you were a Dominican Friar, you had to be a priest, but if you chose to be a Dominican Brother, your call was to support the preaching ministry of the order by making sure that all of the physical needs of the community were covered. In either case, friars, like monks, were not available 24/7. They had a community life and they served very specific populations, not everyone. This happened after Vatican I.

It was not the intention of Vatican I that this should happen. It was poor implementation. Does that sound familiar? 😃

Second, when these communities started to recover, after 1970, they lost many men. They also lost the attractiveness. Their life was much more austere; less “priestly” (not really) in the eyes of many people, and their customs from the early ages of their communities came back to the surface. The biggest thing that resurfaced was the idea of obedience to the pope and to bishops. Whether they agreed or not with what came from Vatican II, part of the recovery was recovering the attitude of fraternal obedience and love. The pope and bishop are your brothers and superiors and you do not question them, once you discern that you’re not being asked to sin. This was the mind of the early monks and mendicants.
 
This all goes to say that what a Traditionalist means when he says “tradition” may not be what a Benedictine or Franciscan mean when we say “tradition”. When we say traditional liturgy for us, we’re thinking of a fraternal community where there are no blurring of line between the ordained and non ordained. We’re thinking of monks singing Gregorian chant and Franciscans reciting the Divine Office. We’re thinking of monks praying the canon of the mass in a whisper and Franciscan shouting it out so that the rest can hear it as was always our custom. We’re thinking of monks not trying to convert anyone by preaching to them, but by hospitality and by their prayer and of friars going among non-Catholics as brothers who serve them and wait for them to come along as did the monks and friars of the middle ages. We’re thinking of friars blasting Catholics for not being Catholic enough and being quiet and gentle with non-Catholics, because brotherhood works better than a tongue lashing.

When you look at the mendicants (Dominicans, Franciscans, Carmelites, Trinitarians and Servites) or at the monks (Benedictines, Carthusians, Cistercians and others), remember that traditional to them means to avoid looking like the FSSP at all costs. These are not secular men. The FSSP are seculars. They don’t have to fit into a mold. If they want to crown the Blessed Mother on every Marian holy day, they can do so. To a Benedictine or a Franciscan that’s very odd. However, to an FSSP not being clean cut and shaved is very odd, whereas to a monk and a friar it’s par for the course. You don’t pay much attention to the way you look. Traditions are going to be proper to each group that you look.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
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