Split and Edited Title: Catholic Vs Baptist Soteriology Discussion

  • Thread starter Thread starter allischalmers
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Hey, Ani Ibi. Thanks for the response. To respond to your questions to me, you ask first “It seems that we are told on the one hand that yall are Once Saved Always Saved. Now you are telling us that it is more like Gradually Saved Gradually Saved. Could you step us through this one too? Thank you.” I was distinguishing between justification (salvation, which is a one-time deal), and sanctification (the progressive perfection of the Christian’s conduct over time, which is a gradual process).

Next, you ask why the concept of differential reward in heaven doesn’t create a middle ground between heaven and hell. I believe it does not. Heaven is a binary, on/off thing; you’re either in or your out. But there are a number of verses indicating that not everyone will be treated identically in heaven, and that additional rewards are dispersed based upon service. As my pastor has observed in the past, it’s not really clear from scripture what these rewards are exactly, but if God’s handing out rewards, you definitely want them. So that’s another strong reason to avoid sinful behavior.

“this does not mean that there are no consequences for post-Salvation sin. If a son steals an inheritance from his cousin, does a just parent not require the son to take the consequences?” Agreed, absolutely. There are consequences. Again, sinful behavior can ruin one’s life on Earth, and can affect one’s reception in heaven.

“So, if he does not make right what he makes wrong, then it follows that he is not close to the parent.” On the Protestant view, there is no way anybody can ever “make right” for their sins. It’s only Christ’s sacrifice on the cross that can make us right with God, not anything we do. We must strive to avoid sinful conduct for any number of reasons, but we can never justify ourselves by redeeming our sinful conduct with good works.

“Questioning and requiring logical answers is not necessarily slanted.” Agreed, absolutely. I’m not blaming anyone for misunderstanding the Protestant view, merely trying to elucidate it to facilitate understanding. I just want to make sure that Catholics don’t think that the Protestant soteriology means that we’re a bunch of antinomians running around, as you occasionally see people suggest.

Onward toward mutual understanding, my friend!

CThomas
 
But there are a number of verses indicating that not everyone will be treated identically in heaven, and that additional rewards are dispersed based upon service. As my pastor has observed in the past, it’s not really clear from scripture what these rewards are exactly, but if God’s handing out rewards, you definitely want them. So that’s another strong reason to avoid sinful behavior.

How can any type of sinful behavior or attachment to sin be allowed in heaven. Isn’t the reward of being in the very presence of the trinity reward enough?
It almost sounds like your talking about purgatory, you know, the whole he will be saved but only as through fire verse. I think it also mentions the only things that won’t be burned up are his good deeds.
 
Catholics believe that different people will have different mounts of glory in Heaven–so what?

That has nothing to do with once Saved always Saved which is a lie because it destroys freedom of will given to man by God or the equally repugnant Calvinist conception of Double Predestination which claims that God predestines people to Hell like a Satanic monster!

But of course there are 10 zillion different forms of baptists–Freewill Baptists are Arminian and Don’t believe in OSAS.

Primitive Baptists Do believe in Double Predestination and are Calvinist.

And some Baptists claim to not believe in OSAS but do claim to believe in eternal security.

Course Baptists contradict themselves and profess to believe in the priesthood of all believers but then will throw out any Baptist pastor that exercises that priesthood of all believers in any way that they do not like.

But the one thing that does remain constant among Baptists is the narrow mind.

It goes like this–Baptists think that their local church works best when everyone in the congregation believes about the same and pats each other on the back and when every year a few more people get saved at a revival–usually in August.

Any question where they have to think–where they do not have an easy to quote authority–well that’s just the devil stirring something up!

They wouldn’t even really want to think about the differences between different kind of Baptists.

All that matters is a personal relationship with Christ–that’s good enough–sing “Blessed Assurance” until death–and hopefully hear some great singing, preaching, and eat some good food on the grounds after church.

That’s about the Depth of the spirituality of the average Baptist!

And the ones who are deeper than that in the Baptist faith think that is OK!

With a mindset like that who would even dream of thinking about anything those Catholics believed–the Methodists are trouble enough anyway!
 
Good post, Jerry-Jet. I see you are as emotional about the issue as I am
mgrfin
 
Well, Jerry-Jet, out of respect for you I’ll refrain from speculating about “the Depth of spirituality of the average” Catholic I’ve met, as you do with Baptists. That wouldn’t be productive or polite.

And it would be similarly counterproductive for me to respond to the caricatured views you ascribe to those who disagree with you. I’m not going to get into the game of responding in kind or defensively explaining that we don’t hold absurd view X. I’ll leave that sort of thing to others.

And just as a general matter, the mocking tone of your e-mail is disappointing to me. I guess mgrifin finds that sort of thing to be edifying, but as for me, I’ll bow out.

CThomas
 
as-a-child said:
It almost sounds like your talking about purgatory, you know, the whole he will be saved but only as through fire verse. I think it also mentions the only things that won’t be burned up are his good deeds.
Click to expand...
That’s what occurred to me. Or something akin to purgatory, perhaps without the purgation effect.

We’ve been criticized for holding to purgatory. Yet now I find out that Reformers hold to different rewards in heaven according to how faithful they have been during their lives.

What does this look like?

Is it like a neighbourhood where some folks live the spiritual equivalent of a 4000 sq ft mansion with five porches in the garage, a stable of thoroughbreds, a couple of swimming pools, membership in the frequent choir club and other folks live the spiritual equivalent of one room in a flop house beside the subway, a hive of termites, a cold-water show, and membership at the bowling alley?

Hey, I’m not knocking this scenario – at all. I just want to know how it works.
  • Once you arrive at your spiritual address to you get to move on up?
  • Or is that where you stay?
  • Are you happy at your own address?
  • Or do you want upward spiritual mobility?
    If you don’t get to move up, then how is this region of heaven any different from hell?
And if you do get to move up, then how is this region of heaven any different from purgatory?

I would appreciate receiving any insights into this stratification of heaven which people can offer please. Thank you.

🙂
 
We honestly don’t know the nature of the heavenly rewards or what they look like, Ani Ibi. In this case, I believe it’s not just a limitation on my own knowledge (although my knowledge is plenty limited), but a simple limitation on the information given to us by the Bible. Indeed, the Bible indicates that there is much about heaven we’re just not allowed to know about until we get there. See, e.g., 2 Corinthians 12:1-4. I don’t think this point is controversial, though (indeed, as my buddy Jerry-Jet noted, Catholics believe this, too). It’s not like purgatory at all – it involves no cleansing of sinful conduct or anything of the sort.

Regards,

CThomas
 
Come on guys. There are still some things to be learned from this thread. I reckon if folks need to put their baggage on the table – fair enough – there are reasonable ways of resolving that while still staying on topic. Right? Otherwise, another good thread goes down the tube.

:crying:

As Jack Nicholson said: Why can’t we all just…

[SIGN]
get along?
😃
[/SIGN]
 
CThomas said:
It’s not like purgatory at all – it involves no cleansing of sinful conduct or anything of the sort.
Click to expand...
OK. Thanks for this.

So it is not purgatory. Is it all heaven? Or part heaven, part hell?
  1. What I mean is are we looking at better rewards for lives lived in greater fidelity to the Gospel? And worse rewards for lives lived in greater infidelity to the Gospel?
Like Johnny, you get the Trigger the Wonder Horse; Billy, you get Dusty the Grouchy Donkey; Adriana, you get the garden slug; Rosamunda, you get a pebble. And some doing somersaults of joy while others scratch their heads and choke back sobs?

:extrahappy: :crying:
  1. Or are we looking at different but equally lovely rewards for lives lived in greater fidelity or infidelity to the Gospel?
Like Johnny, you get the toy trucks; Billy, you get the ballet slippers; Adriana, you get the pony; Rosamunda, you get the basketball. And everyone being eternally blissful with what they get?

:extrahappy::extrahappy:

Hell of course would be :crying::crying: !
 
It’s all heaven, no hell. That much I’m clear on. Between the two choices you present, number 1 is closer to my understanding. The degrees of reward in heaven are not going to be all equal but different. Those who have served God well and faithfully in this life will receive greater reward. Beyond that, I wish I could offer greater specificity but I don’t have any further information about what the rewards entail, and I believe the only people who do are no longer on this Earth. But to restate that old saying, I may not know what the rewards are exactly, but I do know that when God is handing out rewards, you want them.

Regards,

CThomas
 
40.png
CThomas:
I was distinguishing between justification (salvation, which is a one-time deal), and sanctification (the progressive perfection of the Christian’s conduct over time, which is a gradual process).
Click to expand...
Catholics do understand justification/sanctification. But I’m still scratching my head about your notion of how they work. Without the Sacrament of Reconciliation and Purgatory, one would have imho these options:
  • Once Saved Always Saved
  • Apparently Saved but Never Actually Saved
  • Gradually Saved Gradually Saved
40.png
CThomas:
As my pastor has observed in the past, it’s not really clear from scripture what these rewards are exactly, but if God’s handing out rewards, you definitely want them. So that’s another strong reason to avoid sinful behavior.
Click to expand...
This can be positive incentive, as you have mentioned before. Folks can aspire to the spiritual equivalent of the 4000 sq ft mansion with 5 porches in the garage, a couple of swimming pools, and a membership in the frequent choir club.

Or there is the dark underbelly of same: the negative incentive of wanting to avoid the one-room in the flop house beside the subway with a cold-water show and membership at the bowling alley. This is definitely fear-driven.
40.png
CThomas:
Agreed, absolutely. There are consequences. Again, sinful behavior can ruin one’s life on Earth, and can affect one’s reception in heaven.
Click to expand...
How then does this variable reception in heaven differ from heaven for some, hell for others?
40.png
CThomas:
On the Protestant view, there is no way anybody can ever “make right” for their sins. It’s only Christ’s sacrifice on the cross that can make us right with God, not anything we do. We must strive to avoid sinful conduct for any number of reasons, but we can never justify ourselves by redeeming our sinful conduct with good works.
Click to expand...
With you up to a point. But where does the sinner get to take responsibility for what he has done? Is he exempt from making amends to his victims, to himself, to God? In other words, when the son gets caught for tinkering with his cousin’s inheritance, does the parent then simply make it alright for him? And the son never gets to feel the sting of alienation from it? The son just gets to wallow at a sociopathic level of functioning for all his born days?

Now I understand that some folks have an interpretation of Calvinism that God takes care of simply everything: Salvation, Sanctification, Reconciliation. Or for that matter just simple Damnation. And that individual folks don’t have much say in the matter.

In which case: why live? Why didn’t God just dispense with life altogether and put up some folks in heaven and other folks in hell and be done with it?

Is life a kind of temporary spiritual Club Med for the benefit of those who will be damned? If this is the case, then what happened with the folks who already believe they are living a hell on earth? Are those the ones who are destined for heaven? Would that not fly in the face of what Calvinism ended up being?
Calvinism [claimed that] if God had predestined an elect to salvation, and all other men to damnation from the beginning of time and regardless of their merits, this elect did not form a community, because its membership was unknown and unknowable…
Click to expand...
Luther’s was a religion of free enterprise, Calvin’s of capital accumulation. In such a system as the Calvinist theocracies… the poor were convicted prima-facie by their situation.

Every member of the elite might not be a member of the elect, but the poor, and especially the indigent poor, obviously were not. The incompetent, the wastrel, the drunkard, and all those who lived only for pleasure rather than profit were self-evidently damned…
read more…
Click to expand...
How was Christian virtue connected to capital accumulation?
40.png
CThomas:
Onward toward mutual understanding, my friend!
Click to expand...
Kewl! 🙂
 
40.png
CThomas:
It’s all heaven, no hell. That much I’m clear on. Between the two choices you present, number 1 is closer to my understanding. The degrees of reward in heaven are not going to be all equal but different.
Click to expand...
That seems logical to me too. But then in looking at something, not only is it important to look at questions of whether it is true and whether it is just and so on – at some point it breaks down to What does it do? What is its purpose?

What does a system of differential hierarchical rewards in heaven do?

Certainly it makes the person who got the pebble less happy than the person who got Trigger the Wonder Horse.

How can this state of ‘less happiness’ not actually be hell?

Is heaven not a state of perfection? How can ‘less happy’ be part of perfection?

You say a heaven of differential hierarchical rewards is all heaven, no hell. But in fact, it’s part heaven, part hell. Some of the ‘saved’ folks actually wind up in hell even though they are told it is merely a part of heaven with ‘lesser rewards.’

And not only are these folks who found themselves in a heavenly hell ‘less happy’ than other folks, there is no provision made for them to get ‘more happy.’ In other words, there is no hope.

So written on the street sign for this region of heavenly hell is “Abandon all hope all ye who enter here”!

In the end what does it matter where hell is? If it is in heaven or not in heaven, it is still hell.
40.png
CThomas:
I may not know what the rewards are exactly, but I do know that when God is handing out rewards, you want them.
Click to expand...
Sure, we don’t disagree on this. But what has to happen to get those rewards? That is where we are not reading from the same page.

🙂
 
Thanks, Ani Ibi. I’ll try to take these one at a time, although I don’t have answers for all of them.

(1) You say that the differential rewards system creates an “incentive of wanting to avoid the one-room in the flop house beside the subway with a cold-water show and membership at the bowling alley. This is definitely fear-driven.” I don’t think it’s fear driven, and I want to hasten to add that Paul describes heaven as “paradise.” I think anyone who gets there is going to be sitting pretty. It’s just a matter of extremely, extremely good vs. extremely, extremely, extremely good. A true incentive, but nothing remotely comparable to a fear of hellfire.

(2) You ask “How then does this variable reception in heaven differ from heaven for some, hell for others?” I hope my last answer addresses this, too. It’s all heaven, and heaven is a great place. The key and fundamental division is between the saved and the unsaved. The differences in heaven we’re talking about would be quite real, but utterly, negligibly tiny when compared to the fundamental chasm between heaven and hell.

(3) You ask, “Is [the sinner] exempt from making amends to his victims, to himself, to God?” Absolutely not. People who commit sins must definitely repent them and make amends for them. If he does not, he’s facing real consequences in this life and has to look forward to the fact that God will take the issue up with him when he reaches heaven. Moreover, sin creates all sorts of collateral consequences for us. It interferes with our relationship with God, with our growth in the faith, with the efficacy of our prayer life, etc. There are innumerable consequences to sin, real and serious, and sin is a very grave matter indeed for the Christian. It must be made right to avoid, or at least minimize, all of these various consequences.

(4) I’m not a Calvinist, so I don’t feel comfortable responding to your series of questions about Cavlinism that follow. Perhaps a Calvinist would feel like responding to you on these issues.

(5) In your second posting, you ask, “What does a system of differential hierarchical rewards in heaven do?” God’s purposes in setting heaven up the way He does is something that I would not dream of assuming my own answers to. I just try to figure out what God wants as best I can and do it. I can imagine some speculative reasons why God would choose to afford even greater rewards to His faithful servants, but ultimately I don’t feel comfortable speaking for God about what His purposes are when I don’t see any clear scriptural explanation for some point.

(6) Finally, you ask “How can this state of ‘less happiness’ not actually be hell?” and “Is heaven not a state of perfection? How can ‘less happy’ be part of perfection?” Again, I don’t really know the answers to these philosophical questions. I don’t recall seeing any biblical passages off the top of my head saying that heaven is “perfection.” (I don’t even really know what that would mean.) I think we can imagine a paradise where everyone is euphoric, but some receive rewards that make them even more euphoric. The euphoria of the others certainly wouldn’t be anything like hell.

Best regards,

CThomas
 
Santification, Justification, Salvation, Free Will - these are words that try men’s souls.

I know and believe that I am not saved by faith alone, I have to cooperate to obtain the grace of justification (sanctity), and own free will is necessary in all of this.

I am not justified solely by the imputation of the justice of Jesus, to the exclusion of the grace and charity which is poured into my heart by the Holy Spirit (Rom 5.5),

I know also that as for salvation and final justification, I am not guaranteed anything, not guaranteed that I will perservere in grace until the end. It is my fond and greatest hope, however. God does not predestine me or anybody else to heaven, or to hell.

OSAS does not hold water with Catholicism. I reject Protestant theology on this important point: ONCE JUSTIFIED I CAN SIN NO MORE, NOR LOSE GRACE. Not so!

Justice received is increased by means of good works, and are the cause of increased merit and justification.

Although not a favorite subject of mine, I do believe there is such a thing as mortal sin (not just the sin of disbelief), and the grace I have receive in Baptism, or in second justification through the Sacrament of Penance can be lost by grevious sin, not just the sin of disbelief. If I have lost my baptismal innocence, I can regain Grace again by and thru the Sacrament of Penance. Penance can always regain for us the Grace lost through sin.

Grevious sin requires that I seek repentance to regain the loss of grace, but there remains the punishment due for my evil works
The sin has been washed and blotted away, but the debt I incurred must be discharged in this life, or in the next, by prayer, fasting, good works and merit of God’s grace, and/or Purgatory in the next before I see God.

Once justified, should I die, hopefully, in the state of grace, and so the good works I perform by the grace of God and the merits of Jesus Christ truly merits an increase in grace, the attainment of eternal life, and an increase in glory.

Baptists, and Evangelicals are far removed from the one true Faith. To say so is not a lack of charity, for in a way they are parts of the Body of Christ, but they are ‘extra Ecclesiam’, and, as such, in danger of losing salvation.

Are we passionate about our one, true, catholic and orthodox Church, yes, of course we are. We invite all to come home to Christ’s Church.
 
Look even Catholics will tell you straight up that different people have diffferent amounts of glory in Heaven.

I want any Catholic to explain to me how all in Heaven will have the same amount of glory as Mary. I know I won’t.

But all of that doesn’t mean a hill of beans anyway.

All are perfect in Heaven–it’s just that those who are capable of loving God more are completely filled to a larger size than those capable of less love that are also completely filled to smaller size.

And yes what we do in this life will affect our capacity–we can’t increase it but God can if we fully cooperate with Him.

But who cares?

Unless we are perfected either on this Earth or in Purgatory we never even get to enter Heaven anyway!

The difference between Protestants and Catholics is that Catholics–if they die in a state of grace without mortal sin–must be perfected in Purgatory from the remains of sin or attachments to anything that isn’t God.

Protestants on the other hand–if they regularly confess their sins to God–and don’t know of a better way–are left not only with what a Catholic might have yet to do in purgatory–but also the possibility that at death they have committed Mortal sin–

Yes it is possible for anyone to committ a Mortal sin!

And the possibility that even though they have confessed those sins to God–they may have not been Perfectly Contrite for them!

What happens to those Protestants?

We don’t know. It is possible that before death that Jesus gives them the grace to be Perfectly Contrite for thier mortal sins because they do not know better and might be more inclined to be perfectly contrite if they knew the Fullness of the Catholic Faith.

We don’t know this to be true.

Protestants and Catholics alike might die with venial sin and such sin can be forgiven “In the World to Come”.

Jesus said that Blaspehmy against the Holy Spirit “Will not be forgiven in this wolrd OR the world to come.”

So Protestants are in a very precarious position at death–if they have committed mortal sins in their life they must have been perfectly contrite for them

OR

they must hope that Jesus provides them with the grace to be perfectly contrite before they die

OR

they must hope that Jesus can completely forgive those Mortal sins that they have been imperfectly contrite for by means that we don’t know of.

See what Protestants don’t understand is that Catholics know the grave consequences of dying in a state of mortal sin.

Catholics know that means Hell!

When Catholics try to convert Protestants it’s not because they want them to follow a more perfect way–of course that’s part of it–but the main reason a Catholic should want a Protestant to convert is because if they don’t their chances for Hell are greatly Increased!

That’s not to say that definitely that all will go to Hell if they do not convert–it is to say that their chances for going to Hell are Infinitely larger.

And it’s not to act triumphant either because any Catholic who dies in a state of mortal sin will go to Hell, too–and that is quite possible.

Being Catholic just means you have much more avenues for God’s grace which can save you.

So in the end what is important is that everyone receive as much grace as possible from God!

If they do and if they attain the greatest amount of Glory that God wants for them in Heaven that is great–but the greatest thing is if they’re in Heaven at all!
 
allischalmers said:
Maui

I want to show that from the very begining of your post that you are wrong.
Notice what Peter did not say. he did not say, If someone has faith but does not have works, can that faith save him?
Peter says," if someone SAYS he has faith.
Peter is talking about someone who is only professing to have faith but has no real faith.
Real faith brings forth works.
Click to expand...
In attempting to “show” that maui is wrong, however, you have simply shown a bias toward what you already believe. You presume there is such a thing as saving faith apart from works and you project that presumption into the discussion. James would never say, “If someone has faith but does not have works” because THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS FAITH WITHOUT WORKS! That is the simple rebuttal to your claims. That is why he is careful to include, “If someone SAYS he has faith, but does not have works…” In doing so he is reiterating the fact that there is no such thing as faith without works, there are only those who “say” they have faith but who don’t. In short, there are only two types of people who dont produce works: those without faith who claim no faith and those without faith who “say” they have faith. In addition, when you look at the rest of what James says in this chapter, your attempt above it at explaining away fails miserably to reconcile his comments.
 
It’s just a matter of extremely, extremely good vs. extremely, extremely, extremely good. A true incentive, but nothing remotely comparable to a fear of hellfire.

What of the parable of the workers in the vineyard, some came later but received the same pay.

An if i remember correctly the idea of different rewards in heaven deals with the wants of the indivisual person, in full communion with Gods will. Heaven is a bountiful playground where some will swing on the swings and others will play tag. But one thing is sure, they are all in heaven in the very presence of God, and we know nothing unclean can stand before God.
 
40.png
as-a-child:
It’s just a matter of extremely, extremely good vs. extremely, extremely, extremely good.
Click to expand...
I’m sorry, but this doesn’t make sense. There is no such thing as more perfection or less perfection. There is just perfection. Catholics get perfection through Purgatory.
 
Originally Posted by as-a-child
It’s just a matter of extremely, extremely good vs. extremely, extremely, extremely good.

I didn’t say that i was quoting:D
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top