Split and Edited Title: Catholic Vs Baptist Soteriology Discussion

[Contarini]

Luther said different things according to the political climate he found himself in.

Philip of Hesse wanted to take a second wife…

This is not an example of Luther’s inconsistency, since he had maintained for years that in certain circumstances bigamy might be legitimate.

You are using the charge of inconsistency to excuse you from actually trying to understand Luther.

Edwin

 

[Contarini]

allischalmers:
I have been reading my Bible, let me see, if I remember correcly, about forty years. I think I know what the Bible says about salvation.

Then it should be easy for you to tell us where the Bible says that future sins are forgiven. Yet in five pages of posts, I have not found one where you do this!

Where does the Bible say that future sins are forgiven? Romans 3:25 explicitly says that through faith in Christ’s blood past sins are forgiven (though the NIV, as usual, engages in some creative translation work to avoid conflict with the theology dominant among the translators).

Edwin

 

[mgrfin]

quate: "The point that I was trying was this, Maui made the statement in his poat that we are saved by FAITH AND WORK and he quote James to prove it
James is saying that works is the evidents of true faith.

I’ll ask this question again : what is a “work”

Let’s keep this simple. The Gospels and the Epistles are filled with tons of examples of works. But, to just give you an idea of ‘work’ let us examine some of St. James Epistle for examples:

James 1:12: “Blessed is the man that endures temptation; for when he has been proved, he shall receive the crown of life…”
James 1:19-21 “And let every man be swift to hear, and slow to speak, and slow to anger, For the anger of man works not the justice of God. Wherefore casting away all uncleanness, and abundance of naughtiness, with meekness receive the ingrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
James 1:26: “And if any man think himself to be religious, not bridling his tongue, but deceiving his own heart, this man’s religion is in vain.
James 1:27 “Religion clean and undefiled before God and the Father is this: to visit the fatherless and widows in their tribulation: and to keep one’s self unspotted from this world.

You get the idea. Nearly every verse is filled with some admonition and example of doing good works. The Gospels, the Epistles point to these acts of piety which the “Reformers” rejected.

mgrfin

 

[ElizabethPH]

The Catholic understanding of justification teaches that salvation is a process of becoming holier and holier through time…all of this is a work of grace that God performs in our hearts through faith in Christ. Works done in faith are a natural completion of believing in Christ. Perhaps this is a good place to say something very important. The gospel tells us, I am already saved; I am being saved; and am hoping to be saved. Ro8:24

 

[allischalmers]

Romans4;5 But to him the worketh not but believeth on Him that justifieth the ungodly his faith is counted for righteousness

Yes , the Bible does indeed tells us to do good deeds,** "and be not weary of well doing Gal: 6 ; 9 "** but well doing does not gain us salvation only rewards in heaven

 

[mgrfin]

The Catholic understanding of justification teaches that salvation is a process of becoming holier and holier through time…all of this is a work of grace that God performs in our hearts through faith in Christ. Works done in faith are a natural completion of believing in Christ. Perhaps this is a good place to say something very important. The gospel tells us, I am already saved; I am being saved; and am hoping to be saved. Ro8:24

I ask you check your quote again. Rom 8:24 doesn’t say that.

The bible doesn’t say that I am already saved. We have a firm and complete hope that we will be saved.

“Once saved, always saved” is a Protestant doctrine.

mgrfin

 

[allischalmers]

Then it should be easy for you to tell us where the Bible says that future sins are forgiven. Yet in five pages of posts, I have not found one where you do this!

Where does the Bible say that future sins are forgiven? Romans 3:25 explicitly says that through faith in Christ’s blood past sins are forgiven (though the NIV, as usual, engages in some creative translation work to avoid conflict with the theology dominant among the translators).

Edwin

1 John 1:7

 

[Contarini]

1 John 1:7

No mention of future sin there. On the contrary, the action spoke of is a continuous cleansing dependent on continuous walking in the light. This passage contradicts your theology–it says explicitly that we are only cleansed as long as we keep on walking in the light. It’s one of the worst passages you could have chosen for your purpose–though frankly all of Scripture is against you on this one, so I can’t blame you.

Edwin

 

[Jerry-Jet]

Continuous action just like the continuous God is too large a concept for the OSAS minds to fathom.

 

[ElizabethPH]

I ask you check your quote again. Rom 8:24 doesn’t say that.

The bible doesn’t say that I am already saved. We have a firm and complete hope that we will be saved.

“Once saved, always saved” is a Protestant doctrine.

mgrfin

I did not say that ‘once saved always saved’ is a Catholic doctrine.

As Catholics we are redeemed by the Blood of Christ and we trust in Him alone for our salvation. And as the Bible teaches I am working out my salvation in fear and trembling knowing that it is Gods gift of grace working in me. See Phil2:12

And that I am hoping to be saved (see Ro 8:24) from Jerusalem Bible.

Sorry I wasn’t clear about Ro 8:24.

Elizabeth

 

[mgrfin]

Good job, Elizabeth

 

[ElizabethPH]

Romans4;5 But to him the worketh not but believeth on Him that justifieth the ungodly his faith is counted for righteousness

Yes , the Bible does indeed tells us to do good deeds,** "and be not weary of well doing Gal: 6 ; 9 "** but well doing does not gain us salvation only rewards in heaven

Read Matthew 16: 24-27
24Then Jesus said to his disciples, "Whoever wishes to come after me must deny himself, take up his cross, and follow me. 25 ‘For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake will find it. 26 What profit would there be for one to gain the whole world and forfeit his life? Or what can one give in exchange for his life? 27 For the Son of Man will come with his angels in his Father’s glory, and then he will repay everyone according to his conduct.’’

This quote from Jesus is about what it really takes to be a disciple.
He does not emphasize "Faith alone’’, though faith is certainly presumed, and He doesn’t emphasize ‘Faith and Works’; though again ‘works’ [conduct] are clearly mentioned. What He does require are hearts changed and surrendered and submissive to the will of the Father.

We do seem to forget what is really important. We must not be afraid to dialog with open minds if we are seeking all the truth.

 

[Philthy]

Romans4;5 But to him the worketh not but believeth on Him that justifieth the ungodly his faith is counted for righteousness

Yes , the Bible does indeed tells us to do good deeds,** …** but well doing does not gain us salvation only rewards in heaven

I guess I dont see all that you see in that verse allischalmers.
I dont see any reference to future sins being forgiven - I only see a statement, in the present tense, regarding being counted for righteousness. I dont see any statement differentiating rewards and salvation either. I basically see that faith is counted for righteousness apart from “works”. We can debate what Paul was referring to when he discussed works in this context, and it makes sense to me that he was describing works of the law.
But even if you disagree with that, there is absolutely nothing here that says that a moment of faith will result in an instantaneous, permanent and irrevocable salvation. There’s simply no guarantee of that there. And when you see all the references to persevering in faith and being careful of the lures of the world and being cut off from the vine…you get a more complete picture of the battle we face and just how serious it is.

 

[ehscott]

We all at one time or another are going to sin but because our sin have already been dealt with when Christ died on the cross there is not stain sin on the soul.
However when we do sin it effects our relationship and followship with God and other Christains. We make that relationship right when we come to God and ask forgiveness.

Now I am confused because first you say that your sin was dealt with and there is no stains on the soul. Then you say when we sin it affects our relationship with God. Finally you say we make the relationship right when we ask for forgiveness. That sounds very Catholic, when we fall from grace through sin (affect our relationship with God) and ask him for forgiveness, we call that the Sacrament of Reconciliation. You may not like the form but we are doing exactly the same thing as you professed to believe.

 

[Philthy]

This quote from Jesus is about what it really takes to be a disciple. He does not emphasize "Faith alone’’, though faith is certainly presumed, and He doesn’t emphasize ‘Faith and Works’; though again ‘works’ [conduct] are clearly mentioned. What He does require are hearts changed and surrendered and submissive to the will of the Father.

We do seem to forget what is really important. We must not be afraid to dialog with open minds if we are seeking all the truth.

Hi Elizabeth!

I dont know where you got such a distorted view. Don’t you know that first you start with the Pauline epistles, lock into a theology and then move to the rest of Scripture? Then, if Christ seems to contradict your interpretations of Paul, you know that it is because those words of Christ are not meant for Christians like me and you, they were meant for those under the Law. That way much of Scripture can be ignored for the beauty and simplicity of salvation by faith alone.

 

[Philthy]

Now I am confused because first you say that your sin was dealt with and there is no stains on the soul. Then you say when we sin it affects our relationship with God. Finally you say we make the relationship right when we ask for forgiveness. That sounds very Catholic, when we fall from grace through sin (affect our relationship with God) and ask him for forgiveness, we call that the Sacrament of Reconciliation. You may not like the form but we are doing exactly the same thing as you professed to believe.

Yea, sort of. The big difference is that in allischalmers theology the effects of sin on our “relationship with God” is merely a smokescreen. If, for example, you asked him, “What effect does sin have on our salvation?” The answer, of course, will be nothing - it has no effect. Remember in that theology, good works have no bearing on salvation - salvation is by faith alone. And by extension, bad works - sin - also has no bearing on our salvation because salvation is by faith alone. It then follows that the only consequences of sin are temporal: feeling guilty or some physical or emotional harm. Under no circumstances would sin affect our eternal relationship to God.
That is a huge difference between Catholic and Baptist theology.

Philthy

“Calvinism is nothing more than another name for one of the thousands of variations of “biblical” Christianity.” Philthy

 

[Pixie_Dust]

Hi Elizabeth!

I dont know where you got such a distorted view. Don’t you know that first you start with the Pauline epistles, lock into a theology and then move to the rest of Scripture? Then, if Christ seems to contradict your interpretations of Paul, you know that it is because those words of Christ are not meant for Christians like me and you, they were meant for those under the Law. That way much of Scripture can be ignored for the beauty and simplicity of salvation by faith alone.

Right…the “Jesus was speaking to the Jews and He hadn’t yet been crucified” card. Unfortunately you also have to ignore or explain away a lot of what Paul says about persevering and the danger of being cut off and all that.

Just for one example, Romans 11:20-23:
*20Well: because of unbelief they were broken off. But thou standest by faith: be not highminded, but fear.

21For if God hath not spared the natural branches,** fear lest perhaps he also spare not thee.**

22See then the goodness and the severity of God: towards them indeed that are fallen, the severity; but towards thee, the goodness of God, if thou abide in goodness, otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

23And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.

 

[Outback]

Calvinist doctrine has always bothered me for the simple reason that the Father demanded so much of His Son and His Son demanded so much of His disciples. What are we if not disciples of Christ?

Our Calvinist friends are correct with regard to the importance of Faith. I recently outlined all four Gospels, verse by verse in an attempt to understand what was truly important to Jesus. In terms of the number of mentions and the prominence of those mentions, Faith is clearly the most important.

Unfortunately, in the Gospels, the people who have faith are not who we expect them to be. The Samaritan has faith. The leper has faith. The blind man has faith. Jesus clearly and repeatedly states that the apostles do not have the kind of faith He expects and demands of them (Mt 8:25-26, Mt 14:29-31, Mt 17:19-20, Mk 4:39-40). If the apostles do not have saving faith, what makes any of us so secure to think that we have it?

The lessons of the gospels go on to tell us to beware of false teachings. The scribes and pharisees are held as examples of what we should avoid. There are plenty of modern day scribes and pharisees who would have us listen to them, and not the message of Christ Jesus.

We are also told to love our neighbor as ourselves. This love is manifest in works of charity. Come to think of it, all love is manifest in works of charity, especially love of Jesus.

The unmistakable lesson of the gospels is simply this…the Kingdom of God is at hand and in the Kingdom of God, things are not as they are in earthly kingdoms. If you want to follow me, Christ says, you have to think differently.

Either the life of Christ is a living example of what the Father expects of us or it is not. If it is, then we really are expected to pick up our cross and follow Him daily. If we aren’t willing to do that, regardless of what we may call ourselves, we are literally not followers of Christ.

In a nutshell, this is the reason why, after falling away from the Church and flirting with secular society and then evangelical Protestantism, I have returned to my Church and am more firmly Catholic now than at any time in my life.

 

[Strevel]

Now I can curse, abuse, kill, commit adultery, etc.since Jesus Christ has washed away even my WHAT…future sins!!!:tsktsk::nope: :banghead:

IMHO, to say that a person can do what they want because Jesus took care of it on the cross is, well, silly.

To use the Holy sacrifice of Jesus Christ as an “excuse”, and yes, I did say EXCUSE, for improper personal behavior is not acceptable in anyones faith. We are responsible for our behavior. We cannot act wrong and sin just because we want to, then hand it off to Jesus sacrifice. Everyone reading this knows this to be a fact.

We must learn to do better, actually DO better and hone our lives into something better. We must also using jesus Christ as our foundation, set and schieve goals in every aspect of our lives. These goals must cause us to stretch and become more. What and who we are now is Gods gift to us. What we become in ths gift is our return gift to God / Jesus. I would hope that each of us as individuals would not cheapen the sacrifice of the Savior by saying and practicing that we are not responsible for our actions, …someone else is.

To worry if Jesus, and this is my personal practice, took care of our future sins is an obvious . The sacrifice of Jesus Christ takes care of not just our sins, but of the sins of everyone that has been born, is born, will be born. But for us to sin and say that it is taken care of is not proper. Jesus payed the bill, we must be responsible for our actions.

Don in Vegas and Memphis, dstrevel/gmail/com

 

[Bishopite]

(Edited for New Topic Thread)
Judged for what, the blood of Jesus Christ has washed all my sins away, past present and future. Amen & Amen

If the blood of Jesus “has” washed away all of your sins, then why do you still sin?