Split and Edited Title: Catholic Vs Baptist Soteriology Discussion

[mikeledes]

Romans4;5 But to him the worketh not but believeth on Him that justifieth the ungodly his faith is counted for righteousness

Yes , the Bible does indeed tells us to do good deeds,** "and be not weary of well doing Gal: 6 ; 9 "** but well doing does not gain us salvation only rewards in heaven

You failed to quote the entire passage from Galatians 6.

Galatians 6:7-9

**Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. 8 For he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption, but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life. 9 And let us not grow weary while doing good, for in due season we shall reap if we do not lose heart. **

Romans 2:6-10

** 6 who “will render to each one according to his deeds”:[a] 7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; 8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, 9 tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; 10 but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. **

John 5:28-29

Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

You reap what you sow. Another way of putting it is that everyone will be judged according to their works.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[Strevel]

Here’s an old expression: Gold plated junk is still gold plated junk.

By saying that the blood of the lamb has just covered you and you still sin means the blood of the lamb has not been infused into your very soul. Why, because of our wounded nature, and our tendency to have weak wills due to the fall.
Now, how do we ask for forgivness if our future sins are already forgiven. Now if they are already forgiven why say your sorry, Gods already forgiven them. Then by saying your sorry your just puffing yourself up because you beleive you are already forgiven.

If i remember correctly Jesus said we had to do something to abide in him, so that he might abide in us. And it wasn’t just faith.

I a ppreciate and respect others views. However, we should not do wrong and think it is ok just because the bill has been payed so to speak. Sinning and thinking that it is ok is like not thinking that an accident is ok just because you have insurance. To do wrong and not try to do good injures the Holy Sacrifice of Jesus Christ. I just think that sinning is improper and improper things should not be done. If it is accidently done then the sin has been washed away by Christ.

 

[allischalmers]

If the blood of Jesus “has” washed away all of your sins, then why do you still sin?

human nature

 

[allischalmers]

Yea, sort of. The big difference is that in allischalmers theology the effects of sin on our “relationship with God” is merely a smokescreen. If, for example, you asked him, “What effect does sin have on our salvation?” The answer, of course, will be nothing - it has no effect. Remember in that theology, good works have no bearing on salvation - salvation is by faith alone. And by extension, bad works - sin - also has no bearing on our salvation because salvation is by faith alone. It then follows that the only consequences of sin are temporal: feeling guilty or some physical or emotional harm. Under no circumstances would sin affect our eternal relationship to God.
That is a huge difference between Catholic and Baptist theology.

Philthy

“Calvinism is nothing more than another name for one of the thousands of variations of “biblical” Christianity.” Philthy

Philthy
I will concede that you are right if you can answer me one question—
The scriptures say that, talking about Christians, thay are the temple of God, that the Holy Spirit dwells in the soul of the believer.
How is the Holy Spirit going to do be able to remain in that soul if there is the least bit of unforgiven sin on the soul of a believer. Future sins would have to been forgiven when a person is born again and the stain of sin washed away also

 

[Brother_Joseph]

Okay.

Can someone just please help me out with the basic premise?

This is not intended to demean or ridicule anyone on either side of the issue. This is a heartfelt attempt to understand.

As a returning Catholic, I spent a long time away from Catholicism (Christianity in general), and upon my return to Christianity many years after leaving (thanks to the caring intercession of a Protestant chaplain), I spent a short time within the Protestant faith. It was about a year later that I completely returned to Catholicism. This wouldn’t have happened without the intervention of that loving Protestant chaplain.

One thing that bugged me though; what does life matter if everything is already decided?

More so, why bother going through the routine of being born again? Why bother being repentant? If God has already decided that you’re good to go (or not), than actions don’t mean a whole lot. If actions are minimized, than belief in sin is somewhat of a façade. There’s no deterrent. There’s no incentive. The purest of all can spend an eternity in hell as the foulest of humanity may be rewarded in paradise. Why evangelize? Why spread the Gospel as the Apostles did? Everyone’s lot is already cast.You’re not accomplishing anything, are you?

And honestly, God may indeed to do whatever God wishes to do. That’s not for me to question. What I question is the basic theology of Protestant believers and Baptists alike. Not angrily, but curiously.

Isn’t it rather useless to believe your future is already decided and yet to declare yourself a born-again Christian? Aren’t you spinning your wheels?

Please, this is no dig. I would really like a quick education on this. I know I’m ignorant regarding some of the basics and I’m sure I may have some things mixed up here, so feel free to straighten me out!

Peace.

 

[Contarini]

Philthy
I will concede that you are right if you can answer me one question—
The scriptures say that, talking about Christians, thay are the temple of God, that the Holy Spirit dwells in the soul of the believer.
How is the Holy Spirit going to do be able to remain in that soul if there is the least bit of unforgiven sin on the soul of a believer.

Agreed

Future sins would have to been forgiven when a person is born again and the stain of sin washed away also

I don’t think you understand what Catholics mean by the “stain of sin” being “washed away.” They mean that sin has no residue, no effect on how we think or speak or feel, nothing whatever remaining in us.

More to the point, I don’t see how this applies to the question of future sins. Are you saying that the Holy Spirit is not going to dwell in the soul of someone who is going to sin in the future? This makes no sense.

When a person deliberately commits a serious sin, the Holy Spirit no longer dwells in that person’s soul. Sins that do not involve a deliberate turning away from God are forgiven by virtue of the person’s continued union with Christ by faith. Or, in more Protestant terminology, some sins are incompatible with saving faith, and some are not. A person who truly believes in Christ is going to be sorry for all their sins, so sins of weakness that are not fully willed, or actions that are less than perfect but not incompatible with love of God and neighbor, are forgiven. Sins that involve a deliberate rejection of God’s love, however, must be specifically repented of.

Edwin

 

[defenderoftruth]

Hello All,

To the protestants I have to say this: The belief that you are “born again” through the “sinners prayer” is never taught in scripture or the early church for that matter. The early church direct disciples of the apostles and those that were disciples of the disciples of the apostles teach that baptism, WATER BAPTISM is the new birth, it’s not something subjective as thought or knowledge this is a gnostic heresy. (gnostic means knowledge) Since I keep hearing when a person makes a profession of faith.

My husband and I attended and got kicked out of a southern baptist church because we spoke up against OSAS. The pastor taught that divorce and remarriage (what Jesus called adultery) was ok in any circumstance. Yet he condemned homosexuals. I’m a straight woman married to a wonderful man but I saw this as gross hypocrisy.

They as one poster commented were trying to teach Paul instead of Jesus. Most baptists don’t believe or teach the sermon on the mount because it’s “pre-cross”. This is dispensationalism garbage.

Jesus says divorce/remarriage is adultery, he said lust is adultery, love your enemy etc. etc. yet we have rampant divorce remarriage, warmongering etc. etc. etc. and they are still going to heaven because they prayed the sinners prayer and they are OSAS. I would like to comment that the trying to seperate Jesus and Paul in teaching is totally like Marcion like another poster stated. Marcion was a heretic in the early church that taught Jesus came to save us from the big bad God of the old testament. So in like manner Paul is more correct since he’s after the cross? Paul agrees totally with Jesus on sermon on the mount and what a Christian needs to do and act like to be saved.

Listen up protestants, the scariest verse in the bible isn’t for non-believers it’s for “christians” that don’t follow what Jesus and his apostles taught.

Matthew 7:21-23 Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doth the will of my Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven. Many will say to me in that day: Lord, Lord, have not we prophesied in thy name, and cast out devils in thy name, and done many miracles in thy name?And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, you that work iniquity.

work iniquity ie lawlessnes ie sinner!

OSAS with easy believism will land many in hell. It may sound rough but its true. And a btw, a person can “know they are going to heaven” but until God says so, you “knowing” won’t mean a thing. God knows us better than we know ourselves.

It has been a belief since the beginning of the church as stated in the bible and early church that works can’t save you without Jesus. Faith without a godly life will damn you. Ever heard of a good tree producing bad fruit? Or a tree that produces no fruit? They get tossed into the fire. I have been to several protestant churches, only one wasn’t OSAS and it was a Traditional Anglican church. All the others that taught OSAS totally taught opposite the sermon on the mount (JESUS’S TEACHINGS) and they were full of people that “know they are going to heaven”. I really do hurt for them because they are going to be in trouble if not damned for teaching and acting contrary to what Jesus taught.

 

[mgrfin]

Read Matthew 16: 24-27
24Then Jesus said to his disciples, "Whoever wishes to come after me must deny himself, take up his cross, and follow me.

We do seem to forget what is really important. We must not be afraid to dialog with open minds if we are seeking all the truth.

You mean, like, er, WORKS?

 

[Ani_Ibi]

…I just think that sinning is improper and improper things should not be done. If it is accidently done then the sin has been washed away by Christ.

Strevel: please do the math here. If the blood of Jesus has washed away all of your sins, then how can you still sin?

So those who say they have been saved but who still sin, then they were never saved in the first place. Right?

How many do you reckon those might number?

 

[mikeledes]

Philthy
I will concede that you are right if you can answer me one question—
The scriptures say that, talking about Christians, thay are the temple of God, that the Holy Spirit dwells in the soul of the believer.
How is the Holy Spirit going to do be able to remain in that soul if there is the least bit of unforgiven sin on the soul of a believer. Future sins would have to been forgiven when a person is born again and the stain of sin washed away also

We have the case of King Saul:

1 Samuel 10:6-9

Then the Spirit of the LORD will come upon you, and you will prophesy with them and be turned into another man. 7 And let it be, when these signs come to you, that you do as the occasion demands; for God is with you. 8 You shall go down before me to Gilgal; and surely I will come down to you to offer burnt offerings and make sacrifices of peace offerings. Seven days you shall wait, till I come to you and show you what you should do.”
9 So it was, when he had turned his back to go from Samuel, that God gave him another heart; and all those signs came to pass that day.

And yet we read that God departed from Saul after he disobeyed:

1 Samuel 16:14

14 But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and a distressing spirit from the LORD troubled him.

1 Samuel 18:12

12 Now Saul was afraid of David, because the LORD was with him, but had departed from Saul.

God can grant mercy and give the Holy Spirit, but He can also take it away. That’s why after David grievously sinned (i.e. the Bathsheba incident), he pleaded:

Psalm 51:11

11 Do not cast me away from Your presence,
And do not take Your Holy Spirit from me.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[mgrfin]

Hello All,

OSAS with easy believism will land many in hell. It may sound rough but its true. And a btw, a person can “know they are going to heaven” but until God says so, you “knowing” won’t mean a thing. God knows us better than we know ourselves.

It has been a belief since the beginning of the church as stated in the bible and early church that works can’t save you without Jesus. Faith without a godly life will damn you. Ever heard of a good tree producing bad fruit? Or a tree that produces no fruit? They get tossed into the fire. I have been to several protestant churches, only one wasn’t OSAS and it was a Traditional Anglican church. All the others that taught OSAS totally taught opposite the sermon on the mount (JESUS’S TEACHINGS) and they were full of people that “know they are going to heaven”. I really do hurt for them because they are going to be in trouble if not damned for teaching and acting contrary to what Jesus taught.

I hear ya, sister!

 

[mgrfin]

Strevel: please do the math here. If the blood of Jesus has washed away all of your sins, then how can you still sin?

So those who say they have been saved but who still sin, then they were never saved in the first place. Right?

How many do you reckon those might number?

Wrong.

Catholic teaching: personal sins committed after Baptism are still there. There is no automatic washing away. You have to conffess your sins, do penance, and make reparations, then your sins are washed away by the merits of our Saviour

Also, original sin (before baptism) is still there until you are baptised.

If Protestants adhere to OSAS, then why be baptised? What does baptism do for you? You have to be born again by water and the Holy Spirit, not just run up to the podium, crying out, “Lord, Lord. Amen, and Alleluia”

 

[Shain1611]

Now I can curse, abuse, kill, commit adultery, etc.since Jesus Christ has washed away even my WHAT…future sins!!!:tsktsk::nope: :banghead:

That’s correct ! What is the difference between someone who is saved and is trusting on the Blood of our Lord and someone who is not saved?

Shain1611 (Link removed to avoid possible board swarm.)%between%

 

[Shain1611]

We have the case of King Saul:

1 Samuel 10:6-9

Then the Spirit of the LORD will come upon you, and you will prophesy with them and be turned into another man. 7 And let it be, when these signs come to you, that you do as the occasion demands; for God is with you. 8 You shall go down before me to Gilgal; and surely I will come down to you to offer burnt offerings and make sacrifices of peace offerings. Seven days you shall wait, till I come to you and show you what you should do.”
9 So it was, when he had turned his back to go from Samuel, that God gave him another heart; and all those signs came to pass that day.

And yet we read that God departed from Saul after he disobeyed:

1 Samuel 16:14

14 But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and a distressing spirit from the LORD troubled him.

1 Samuel 18:12

12 Now Saul was afraid of David, because the LORD was with him, but had departed from Saul.

God can grant mercy and give the Holy Spirit, but He can also take it away. That’s why after David grievously sinned (i.e. the Bathsheba incident), he pleaded:

Psalm 51:11

11 Do not cast me away from Your presence,
And do not take Your Holy Spirit from me.

God Bless,
Michael

Hi Michael,

You are applying the OT salvation by works to the Church Age, which is salvation by grace. Whenever you use the OT to prove you can lose your salvation you are not taking into account the Cross. You are talking about a time before the Cross and we are talking about a time after the cross. So your examples are wrong.

Shain1611 (Link removed to avoid possible board swarm.)

 

[Ani_Ibi]

That’s correct ! What is the difference between someone who is saved and is trusting on the Blood of our Lord and someone who is not saved?

Shain1611

Could you paraphrase and/or quote the relevant material please? We are discouraged from swarming other discussion boards. Thank you.

 

[Ani_Ibi]

mgrfin:

Wrong.

I am challenging his logic. Not making a claim.

 

[defenderoftruth]

You are applying the OT salvation by works to the Church Age, which is salvation by grace. Whenever you use the OT to prove you can lose your salvation you are not taking into account the Cross. You are talking about a time before the Cross and we are talking about a time after the cross. So your examples are wrong.

ugh. This is what I was talking about dispensationalism. (wrongly dividing the word of truth) The FACT is that in the OT people were saved with their works that showed their faith. Abraham went to sacrifice Isaac because God told him to, (a work) and because he actually went to do it because God told him to it was showing (his faith).

So then Jesus’s statements before the cross are null and void huh? So then we can just ignore his divorce/remarriage, love your enemy, murder in your heart, looking with lust, etc. etc. sermon on the mount huh?

This is atrocious.

 

[defenderoftruth]

shane,

Are you KJV only? (the 1611 next to your name) Just curious. I attended an independant baptist church that was KJV only and they were hard core Ruckmanites, with their different salvation for different ages. (more than one gospel essencially) After reading Clarence Larkin’s “the greatest book on dispensational truth in the world” we left. Heresy is heresy no matter the kindness and genuiness of the people.

So shane do Jesus’s words matter? Do you love your enemies and pray for them to repent and become Christians or do relish going to war to kill them? (Iraq and Afghanistan) Do think that divorce remarriage after baptism is adultery? Can a person that believes and teaches contrary to the sermon on the mount (Jesus calls them least in the kingdom of Heaven) and still be considered obedient followers? Reread my post above on the Matthew verses I posted.

I know someone that I worked with who gave me a chick tract and was (it seemed like) a hardcore Christian. He openly outreached to people, he went to church twice on sunday, and shunned all worldly activities. Yet later on he jumped into porn, drinking heavily, verbally abusing his wife, lusting after women at work, violent acts and yet he still claims to be saved. Now only God knows for sure if he’ll repent or die in rebellion. But aren’t we supposed to judge him according to his fruit? He made a profession of faith, was baptized (I believe) and yet here he is. As a Catholic I would say if he died today in this state he would go to hell. But he “knows he’s saved” according to the OSAS doctrine and the teachings of the above Independant fundamentalist baptist church. Would you say that he wasn’t saved before or that he still is. I would say this is a text book example living out of Jesus and the parable of the sower on the different kinds of soil.

So do Jesus’s word’s matter? Do you follow them?

(just so you know I’m anti-war, anti-death penatly, anti-abortion, anti-divorce remarriage (after baptism, before then repentance and baptism wash the sin away) and I really strive to follow the bible and the teachings of the early church not just Paul (after the cross)

 

[mikeledes]

Hi Michael,

You are applying the OT salvation by works to the Church Age, which is salvation by grace. Whenever you use the OT to prove you can lose your salvation you are not taking into account the Cross. You are talking about a time before the Cross and we are talking about a time after the cross. So your examples are wrong.

Shain1611

I’m sorry, but you are wrong. The righteous of the Old Testament and the “Church Age” are saved the same way, by the grace of God and the Cross of Christ. All those saved in the Old Testament were saved by the cross of Christ. If it were possible to be saved apart from the Cross of Christ, then the Cross would be unnecessary because we could save ourselves. :doh2:

Galatians 2:21

21 I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died in vain.

Observance of the Mosaic Law could not justify or save anyone because it could not free us of our sins. That could only be done by Christ. While the righteous of the Old Testament may not have known Christ as we know Christ, they believed in Him through the promises of God and the sacrificial system that foreshadowed/pointed to the Cross of Christ. Just read Hebrews 11.

God bless,
Michael

 

[mgrfin]

Hi Michael,

You are applying the OT salvation by works to the Church Age, which is salvation by grace. Whenever you use the OT to prove you can lose your salvation you are not taking into account the Cross. You are talking about a time before the Cross and we are talking about a time after the cross. So your examples are wrong.

Shain1611 %between%

I don’t know how you arrive at this salvation teaching. Reading the words of Jesus, and I won’t quote any of them here, you can go to hell. You are saying that Jesus on the Cross saved us, and we don’t have to do anything; we can even sin and it is okay.

Sorry, hell is open still to us poor Catholics