Split and Edited Title: Catholic Vs Baptist Soteriology Discussion

[NotWorthy]

The Bible tells us that Christians will face trails and temptations but those trails and temptation will only make your faith stronger.

Jesus tells a different story in the parable of the sower of the seeds.

13 And the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear the word, receive it with joy; but these have no root, they believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. 14 And as for what fell among the thorns, they are those who hear, but as they go on their way they are choked by the cares and riches and pleasures of life, and their fruit does not mature.

 

[sandusky]

allischalmers:

The Bible tells us that Christians will face trails and temptations but those trails and temptation will only make your faith stronger.

NotWorthy:

Jesus tells a different story in the parable of the sower of the seeds.

James 1:2-4:

2 Consider it all joy, my brethren, when you encounter various trials,

3 knowing that the testing of your faith produces endurance.

4 And let endurance have its perfect result, so that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing.

 

[NotWorthy]

OK, Sandusky, you have a good point, but you’ve got to reconcile it with Jesus’ words. As I indicated in the parable, Jesus clearly says that some will be tempted and fail.

As James indicates:

  			Originally Posted by **James 1:2-4** 					 				
  		*2 Consider it all joy, my brethren, when you encounter various trials,

3 knowing that the testing of your faith produces endurance.

4 And let endurance have its perfect result, so that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing.*It’s true that Testing does produce endurance - you only have to look at someone exercising to see the most tangible result of that. But is endurance the ONLY result of testing, or do some fail? Jesus indicates that there are those that fail.

Verse 4 of James quotes looks to be a prayer for those that are being tested that they may endure and become perfect and complete.

 

[mgrfin]

Thanks - the question wasnt for my own understanding, it was for allischalmers who claimed that salvation is by faith in Jesus. Saying that it is by faith in Jesus does not address the question of what happens if someone at one point in time “receives the word with joy” and has faith in Jesus, but “through the trials and temptations of the world” loses that faith at a later point in time and ultimately dies without faith in Jesus. He would simply like to pretend that salvation is instantaneous, complete and permanent at the time one comes to faith in Christ and that one need not continue in faith. I disagree with that contention and I was hoping to help him see that Scripture and reason disagree with him as well.

These bible sayers are always telling us to show it to them in
SS. I ask the same of them. Scripture is loaded with examples of situations where some have lost faith, or who have sinned, and they are told they are in danger of losing their immortal soul.

Scripture has never taught us that we can sin, sin, sin, and get to heaven. Thats what OSAS tell us in its entirety. Do they think God is a fool?

I don’t have a Concordance handy, but they can pull up all kinds of Scripture disowning OSAS. Stick James in, just to seem them bristle. “Faith, without good works is dead”. In Romans Paul was talking about the works of the Old Law, the ritual washing, the food restrictions, all by the hundreds. Those with circumcision weren’t going to save anyone. Quote 1 Corinthians 13. I never get to hear them respond to that Chapter of Paul on the necessity of the virtue of Charity.

mgrfin

 

[NotWorthy]

These bible sayers are always telling us to show it to them in SS. I ask the same of them. Scripture is loaded with examples of situations where some have lost faith, or who have sinned, and they are told they are in danger of losing their immortal soul.

Although I agree with what you say, remember that these “bible sayers” are Christians, too. I don’t know if that was your intent, but I think you have a derogatory intent when you call them “These bible sayers”

 

[mgrfin]

Although I agree with what you say, remember that these “bible sayers” are Christians, too. I don’t know if that was your intent, but I think you have a derogatory intent when you call them “These bible sayers”

I disagree with you. I have no evil intent by using the term ‘bible sayers’.

Thank you.

peace
mgrfin

 

[NotWorthy]

I disagree with you. I have no evil intent by using the term ‘bible sayers’.

Then I sincerely apologize for thinking that. Too often we sling terms out without knowing the connotations. Some Catholics are offended by the term “Roman Catholicism”, while others aren’t. I think “Christian” was originally a pejorative, and now we wear it proudly.

But I just wanted to make sure we were giving all of our “Bible Sayer” Brothers and Sisters the respect that we should give everyone who is a guest on these forums!

Sorry again, and keep up the Good Work!!!

 

[lyle]

I don’t have a problem with what you are saving. We are not biblical literalists. We use common sense. There are figures of speech - like saying 'the whole world" or ‘all’, doesn’t literally mean that. But where you say, “Christ died for all”, we of course mean “all” literally.

I could do a better job at answering you, but I leave that to others standing in the wings.
mgrfin

Hi mgrfin, I’m sorry I didn’t mean to suggest that Catholics were biblical literalist or don’t use common sense when reading the bible I seriously apologize. But when we (both Catholics and Baptist) are talking about salvation I think it is important to understand how we are saved. Again I’ll say I personally believe that all those Catholics and all those Baptist who **truly believe **that Jesus paid the price for their sins on the cross, and that He died, and was raised again by God the Father on the third day will be saved.
But when you mean all literally, do you mean all men with out exception or all men meaning every tribe, and tongue, and people and nation.? Because there is a difference. If you mean Christ died for all men without exception, then why is there a hell? Why would we need to evangelize if Christ died for all men without exception? For when Christ died He redeemed us to God by His blood. (Revelation 5:9) But if you believe that Christ died for every tribe, and tongue, and people and nation, then we would be out evangelizing spreading the good news of the gospel and warning people of the dangers of hell. Could this be why I have never been approached by a Catholic and been told the good news of the gospel, is it because they believe that Christ died for all men without exception?

 

[Philthy]

The Bible tells us that Christians will face trails and temptations but those trails and temptation will only make your faith stronger.

That is an innaccurate representation of **all **of what Scripture says regarding the trials of life. Scripture doesnt merely say that trials will make your faith stronger - it also says that some will faulter during trials and that we need to persevere and that “whoever persevere’s until the end” will be saved. You are just cherry picking if you are going to pretend that Scripture merely says that trials and temptations “only” make our faith stronger. I expect a more honest representation of God’s Word from you, and so does He.
“Beloved, I urge you as aliens and sojourners to keep away from worldly desires that wage war against the soul.” 1Pet 2:11
“Be doers of the word and not hearers only, deluding yourselves” Jam1:22
“…you are storing up wrath for yourself for the day of…the just judgement of God, who will repay everyone according to his works: eternal life to those who seek… immortality through perseverence in good works, but wrath and fury to those who selfishly…obey wickedness” Rom 2:8
“What then, shall we sin because we are…under grace? Of course not - …you are slaves of the one you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience which leads to righteousness.”
Christ, Peter, Paul and James all taught that obedience to the new life in Christ was a necessary component for the faithful. Nowhere is it said that the “only” result of trials will be a strengthening of faith. You know that as well as I do.
BTW, you never responded to the “one question” you had for me that, if I answered, you would concede that I was correct regarding forgiveness. Did you miss it?

 

[benaiah]

Hello defender,
Thanks for giving me the wikipedia link/definition of dispensationalism, and I assume by your comment, you consider it “junk”. Also thanks for the suggestion of starting another thread about that on this forum (I may do that because I am curious as to how you or other Catholics read the bible). Do Catholics attain a premillennial, postmillennial or amillennial view when reading the bible? Do you take most scripture literally or allagorically. A rule I use for bible interpretation is, when the plain sense of scripture makes common sense, seek no other sense. Therefore, take every word at its primary, ordinary, usual, literal meaning, unless the facts of the immediate context, studied in the light of related passages, and axiomatic and fundamental truths, indicate clearly otherwise. God, in revealing His word, neither intends nor permits the reader to be confused. He wants His children to understand. I believe that the way we read and our interpretation of scripture determines our theology, our differences and our similarities. Thanks for your comments,
God Bless you,
Benaiah

There is a problem with your line of thinking, how can I say that? Well 10,000+ denominations show that the above doesn’t work. … Read the Ante-Nicene/Post Nicene Fathers you’ll understand all those scriptures that 10,000+ denominations disagree on. Catholics read the bible and at face value and we follow what the early church ie tradition that is closest to the apostles says on the matter ie the church.
I’m sorry if this sounds “rude”. I’m working on my meekness…

Hello Defender,
Thanks for responding, even though you didn’t answer any of my questions. However, I must ask you if YOU have read any of the Ante-Nicene Fathers. I have. The premillennial advent was the common heritage of both Jewish and Gentile Christians, and passed from the Jewish Christian to the Gentile Christian church precisely in the way the gospel passed. It was as alive and fragrant at Antioch as at Jerusalem, at Rome as at Ephesus. History has no consensus more unanimous for any doctrine than is the consensus of the apostolic Fathers for the premillennial advent of Christ. Passing from the apostolic period to that of the early Christian fathers, I must say, it would be difficult to deny that for the first three centuries the churches held the doctrine of the premillennial coming of Christ. I think I have gone through most of the writings of the fathers for the first three centuries pretty carefully, and I do not know of an exception (unless it be Origin). It was the faith of Barnabas, Polycarp, Clement, Ignatius, Papius, Tertullian, Justin Martyr, Nepos, Irenaeus, Victorinus, Methodius, Lactantius, Hermas and many others-all were at one. The Doctrine of the Lord Jesus Christ’s return prior to His thousand-year Reign is not only scriptural but an ancient belief that was held by the overwhelming majority of notables of Church History. Although their views on this important doctrine varied, they nevertheless believed Jesus Christ would return BEFORE the thousand-year reign of Christ. Premillennialism is in conflict with Roman Catholic eschatology and is arrived at by a LITERAL view of Scripture. As in modern dispensational premillennialism, Literalism in prophetic interpretation was a key ingredient in the millenarian belief of the early fathers. The principle was affirmed and practiced by a majority of the church leaders who championed this doctrine. It was not until the allegorism of Alexandria began to take its toll that premillennialism entered a protracted period of decline. So please re-read my simple rule of bible interpretation above and maybe you will see it’s not as big of a “problem” as you thought, and maybe MORE in-line with how the early church fathers read and viewed Scripture. Before closing, I researched the overwhelming number of 10,000 + denominations you had mentioned and fell SHORT by about 9650.
In “Finding the right Church A Guide to Denominational Beliefs” by Shelly Steig (1997 Published by World Bible Publishers, Inc. iowa Falls, IA 50126), there were 152 denominations described followed by an additional 129 denominations that would not participate with her publication; for a total of 281. Along with the “Encyclopedia of Cults and new Religions” by John Ankerberg and John Weldon (1999 Published by Harvest House Publishers, Eugene, Oregon 97402), listing 57. Then add in others not included in the previous works, such as Roman Catholicism, Eastern Orthodox, Islam, and Hinduism; I could safely arrive at a best estimate of 350. What are the other 9650 denominations? I hope this doesn’t come off as “rude”, I’m just curious.
God Bless you,
Benaiah

 

[mgrfin]

But when we (both Catholics and Baptist) are talking about salvation I think it is important to understand how we are saved. Again I’ll say I personally believe that all those Catholics and all those Baptist who **truly believe **that Jesus paid the price for their sins on the cross, and that He died, and was raised again by God the Father on the third day will be saved.
But when you mean all literally, do you mean all men with out exception or all men meaning every tribe, and tongue, and people and nation.? Because there is a difference.?

I know, as a Catholic how we are saved. And there is no in what you define as who is saved. Christ died for all.

There is a difference, and there is a hell because we don’t believe that salvation is automatic cause Christ died for all men.
He made it possible for all men to be saved, but we don’t accept, if you don’t know by know, OSAS.

There is a hell because some men die unrepentant of their personal grevious sins.

mgrfin

 

[mgrfin]

That is an innaccurate representation of **all **of what Scripture says regarding the trials of life. Scripture doesnt merely say that trials will make your faith stronger - it also says that some will faulter during trials and that we need to persevere and that “whoever persevere’s until the end” will be saved. You are just cherry picking if you are going to pretend that Scripture merely says that trials and temptations “only” make our faith stronger. I expect a more honest representation of God’s Word from you, and so does He.
“Beloved, I urge you as aliens and sojourners to keep away from worldly desires that wage war against the soul.” 1Pet 2:11
“Be doers of the word and not hearers only, deluding yourselves” Jam1:22
“…you are storing up wrath for yourself for the day of…the just judgement of God, who will repay everyone according to his works: eternal life to those who seek… immortality through perseverence in good works, but wrath and fury to those who selfishly…obey wickedness” Rom 2:8
“What then, shall we sin because we are…under grace? Of course not - …you are slaves of the one you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience which leads to righteousness.”
Christ, Peter, Paul and James all taught that obedience to the new life in Christ was a necessary component for the faithful. Nowhere is it said that the “only” result of trials will be a strengthening of faith. You know that as well as I do.
BTW, you never responded to the “one question” you had for me that, if I answered, you would concede that I was correct regarding forgiveness. Did you miss it?

Are you suggesting that someone quote the whole bible to you to get an idea across?

One good quote should be enough in this setting.

 

[as-a-child]

You know i think some head way could be made in this discussion if we talk about original sin. By looking at original sin and it’s after effects might give us a better idea of what is necessary for salvation.

An yes i’m looking at starting from point 1.

 

[ElizabethPH]

Hi mgrfin, I’m sorry I didn’t mean to suggest that Catholics were biblical literalist or don’t use common sense when reading the bible I seriously apologize. But when we (both Catholics and Baptist) are talking about salvation I think it is important to understand how we are saved. Again I’ll say I personally believe that all those Catholics and all those Baptist who **truly believe **that Jesus paid the price for their sins on the cross, and that He died, and was raised again by God the Father on the third day will be saved.
But when you mean all literally, do you mean all men with out exception or all men meaning every tribe, and tongue, and people and nation.? Because there is a difference. If you mean Christ died for all men without exception, then why is there a hell? Why would we need to evangelize if Christ died for all men without exception? For when Christ died He redeemed us to God by His blood. (Revelation 5:9) But if you believe that Christ died for every tribe, and tongue, and people and nation, then we would be out evangelizing spreading the good news of the gospel and warning people of the dangers of hell. Could this be why I have never been approached by a Catholic and been told the good news of the gospel, is it because they believe that Christ died for all men without exception?

I guess I just don’t get it. Who do you think Christ died for if not for all men?

 

[as-a-child]

Could this be why I have never been approached by a Catholic and been told the good news of the gospel, is it because they believe that Christ died for all men without exception?

Actually the only reason the Gospel can be delivered is because of Christ dying for all. The exception comes from the free will of the person to accept the good news.
As Catholics we believe that baptism makes us adopted sons and daughters of God. Heirs to the kingdom as it were, but sons and daughters can reject there birthright, as the parable of the prodigal son illustrates.

Now as far as never being approached by a Catholic, have you seen paintings by catholic artits( the sistine chapel), icons depicting the life of saints and Christ. Have you seen catherdrals and basilicas? Seen the pope on TV, or heard of mother theresa? If so maybe you have been approached, just not the way you expected.

 

[Benadam]

OSAS isn’t something we can realize. There are people who say " Lord Lord" and know His Name who believe they are saved but are not, and people who don’t know that they are saved but who really are, and no one but God can know who either is.

OSAS is true but only real in eternity. Relative to our present state eternity is changelessness. The same today, yesterday and tomorrow. OSAS is a claim to that state of being. We can only receive what we are given as John the Baptist said. Just as we can know God knows but not know what God knows, we can know that OSAS is true but not know it as real.

 

[jpaul]

We all at one time or another are going to sin but because our sin have already been dealt with when Christ died on the cross there is not stain sin on the soul.
However when we do sin it effects our relationship and followship with God and other Christains. We make that relationship right when we come to God and ask forgiveness.

Peace and all-good!

The Fundamentalist Protestant’s dogma of “once saved, always saved” is either a devil’s decepton or self-deception.

“Children, let no one deceive you. The person who acts in righteousness is righteous, just as he is righteous. Whoever sins belongs to the devil, because the devil has sinned from the beginning…” (1 John 4: 7).

“They have been written as a warning to us, upon whom the end of the ages has come. For all these reasons, let anyone who thinks he is standing upright watch out lest he fall!” (1 Cor. 10: 11-12).

“Then he will say to those on his left: 'Out of my sight, you condemned into that everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels! I was hungery and you gave me no food… Then they in turn will ask: 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty… He will answer them: 'I assure you, as often as you neglected to do it to one of thse least ones, you neglected to do it to me. These will go off to eternal punishment and the just to eternal life.” (Mt. 25: 41-46).

Ave Maria!

jpaul

 

[as-a-child]

OSAS isn’t something we can realize. There are people who say " Lord Lord" and know His Name who believe they are saved but are not, and people who don’t know that they are saved but who really are, and no one but God can know who either is.

OSAS is true but only real in eternity. Relative to our present state eternity is changelessness. The same today, yesterday and tomorrow. OSAS is a claim to that state of being. We can only receive what we are given as John the Baptist said. Just as we can know God knows but not know what God knows, we can know that OSAS is true but not know it as real.

But OSAS takes your personal judment when you die out of the picture. And also we can only know What God knows because he has revealed it to us. An he has revealed that he wants not the death of any sinner but knows we may turn away from him.

 

[Benadam]

But OSAS takes your personal judment when you die out of the picture. And also we can only know What God knows because he has revealed it to us. An he has revealed that he wants not the death of any sinner but knows we may turn away from him.

Peace

I’m not sure of what you mean by saying OSAS takes your personal judgement out of the picture. I’m also not clear on the connection you are making with God’s desire that sinner’s not suffer death and His knowledge that we turn from Him.

 

[lyle]

I guess I just don’t get it. Who do you think Christ died for if not for all men?

All true believers out of every tribe, and tongue, and people and nation