SPLIT: Catholics have no assurance of salvation

[Bengoshi]

This is an aspect of the Catholic teaching that never made sense to me. And it all surrounds this notion of the finality of hell. It doesn’t make sense.

Let’s say you have five children. You do your best to raise them well. But as they get older they all fall in with the wrong kind of friends who only bring them down, and they get into all sorts of vices, and eventually they die and go to hell. But you stayed true to your faith, and went to heaven. But how are you able to enjoy the fruits of heaven knowing all five of your beloved children are rotting in eternal torment forever?? Does God just erase all memory of your kids, so that you can enjoy paradise better?

No. All souls will eventually find their way back to God. And the tools for them to complete that journey were put in place before they began.

Actually, there’s no need to worry about that because there is no sadness in heaven. You won’t even feel bad about your children who are in hell. It’s as if there is a one-way mirror between heaven and hell. Those in heaven see the joy of those in heaven but those in heaven will not see the suffering of those in hell (THE LIFE TO COME by Rev. Dr. William Girao). My issue with Catholic soteriology is that they have no assurance of salvation. Check out these links:

bible-truth.org/assuran2.html

bible-truth.org/Assuran1.htm

 

[Bengoshi]

I always find it ironic when non-Catholic Christians are sure of their salvation. What is the source of that confidence? Isn’t it for God to judge?

The source of my assurance is the Word of God itself. Check out the link I posted above to the articles on that.

You see, you misunderstand that very basis of Catholic teaching: Love. Love is doing something for someone else without expecting anything in return. And Love is its own reward. We don’t serve God to get to heaven. We serve God out of love. The Protestant refrain about Catholics working their way to heaven is hugely ironic. You don’t hear Catholics worrying about going to heaven anywhere near as ofter as Protestants, and particularly Evangelicals do. That’s because we are content to love and to let Jesus be the judge of our worthiness. And our consciences aren’t always prodding us to question whether we are going to heaven, for the very same reason.

So it’s not imporant whether you go to heaven or not? Heaven is where God is, don’t you think that it’s important for you to be sure that you’re gonna be with God forever? Being in heaven will be the best way to serfve God because you will be serving Him for all eternity then. Besides, who told you that our consciences keep on prodding us to question our salvation? It doesn’t. We just want the same assurance for others that is why we share this blessed hope.

and we do, but we also have read in 1Corinthians 13 that love never fails.

You’re the one who’s quoting passages out of context, not me.

No, not everyone commits mortal sin. Why do you think that? do you understand the definition of mortal sin:
In order for a sin to be mortal, it must meet three conditions:

• Mortal sin is a sin of grave matter
• Mortal sin is committed with full knowledge of the sinner
• Mortal sin is committed with deliberate consent of the sinner

How do you know if a sin is a grave matter? Is lusting over a woman a grave matter? How about thoughts of maiming or killing someone without actually doing it? All sins deserve death, “for the wages of sin is death…” (Rom. 6:23).

 

[paul_c]

Quote:
Originally Posted by paul c
I always find it ironic when non-Catholic Christians are sure of their salvation. What is the source of that confidence? Isn’t it for God to judge?

So it’s not imporant whether you go to heaven or not? Heaven is where God is, don’t you think that it’s important for you to be sure that you’re gonna be with God forever? Being in heaven will be the best way to serfve God because you will be serving Him for all eternity then. I didn’t say it wasn’t important. I said we don’t worry about it.

Besides, who told you that our consciences keep on prodding us to question our salvation? It doesn’t. We just want the same assurance for others that is why we share this blessed hope.

Read what you just wrote. Like every evangelical I have ever met, you are incessantly looking for assurance of salvation. Why is that?

Quote:
Originally Posted by paul c
and we do, but we also have read in 1Corinthians 13 that love never fails.

You’re the one who’s quoting passages out of context, not me. Its not out of context. here is the enter passage:
1If I speak in human and angelic tongues but do not have love, I am a resounding gong or a clashing cymbal.
2 And if I have the gift of prophecy and comprehend all mysteries and all knowledge; if I have all faith so as to move mountains but do not have love, I am nothing.
3 If I give away everything I own, and if I hand my body over so that I may boast but do not have love, I gain nothing.
4 Love is patient, love is kind. It is not jealous, (love) is not pompous, it is not inflated,
5 it is not rude, it does not seek its own interests, it is not quick-tempered, it does not brood over injury,
6 it does not rejoice over wrongdoing but rejoices with the truth.
7 It bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
8 Love never fails. If there are prophecies, they will be brought to nothing; if tongues, they will cease; if knowledge, it will be brought to nothing.
9 For we know partially and we prophesy partially,
10 but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away.
11 When I was a child, I used to talk as a child, think as a child, reason as a child; when I became a man, I put aside childish things.
12 At present we see indistinctly, as in a mirror, but then face to face. At present I know partially; then I shall know fully, as I am fully known.
13 So faith, hope, love remain, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

As you can see, its completely in the context I had intended. It shows the primacy of Love over Faith and Hope.

Quote:
Originally Posted by paul c
No, not everyone commits mortal sin. Why do you think that? do you understand the definition of mortal sin:
In order for a sin to be mortal, it must meet three conditions:

How do you know if a sin is a grave matter? Is lusting over a woman a grave matter? How about thoughts of maiming or killing someone without actually doing it? All sins deserve death, “for the wages of sin is death…” (Rom. 6:23).

Its a fair question. Grave matter is actually between you and God. Your conscience will tell you. There is no list but some things are obvious: Murder, adultery, theft, blasphemy, purposely injuring someone, slander. etc. But not all sins deserve death. Taking a penny without asking for it, probably will not cause you to go to Hell, for instance. There are plenty of people that can live for extended periods of time without committing a grave sin. Sin can be trained out of man, through grace and effort. Don’t you know any holy people? The kind that never lie or steal or cheat or would never speak ill of someone else? And sure, they will occassionally slip, but not on something serious because God’s will is their will…This is what we all should attain to…

---

 

[Bengoshi]

Read what you just wrote. Like every evangelical I have ever met, you are incessantly looking for assurance of salvation. Why is that?

You read again what I wrote. I mean that we just want others to have the same assurance of salvation that we have.

Its not out of context. here is the enter passage:
1If I speak in human and angelic tongues but do not have love, I am a resounding gong or a clashing cymbal.
2 And if I have the gift of prophecy and comprehend all mysteries and all knowledge; if I have all faith so as to move mountains but do not have love, I am nothing.
3 If I give away everything I own, and if I hand my body over so that I may boast but do not have love, I gain nothing.
4 Love is patient, love is kind. It is not jealous, (love) is not pompous, it is not inflated,
5 it is not rude, it does not seek its own interests, it is not quick-tempered, it does not brood over injury,
6 it does not rejoice over wrongdoing but rejoices with the truth.
7 It bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
8 Love never fails. If there are prophecies, they will be brought to nothing; if tongues, they will cease; if knowledge, it will be brought to nothing.
9 For we know partially and we prophesy partially,
10 but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away.
11 When I was a child, I used to talk as a child, think as a child, reason as a child; when I became a man, I put aside childish things.
12 At present we see indistinctly, as in a mirror, but then face to face. At present I know partially; then I shall know fully, as I am fully known.
13 So faith, hope, love remain, these three; but the greatest of these is love.
As you can see, its completely in the context I had intended. It shows the primacy of Love over Faith and Hope.

St. Paul is talking more about how we as Christians should relate to others, not salvation. Didn’t the Bible also say that “Without faith, it is impossible to please God”? The Bible mentions faith as a requisite to salvation but not love. I’m not saying love is not important, of course it is essential. However, when it comes to salvation faith is more important. Even pagans, Muslims, terrorists, and other evil men may have love in their hearts but if they do not have faith in Christ, then they cannot be saved.

It’s a fair question. Grave matter is actually between you and God. Your conscience will tell you. There is no list but some things are obvious: Murder, adultery, theft, blasphemy, purposely injuring someone, slander. etc. But not all sins deserve death. Taking a penny without asking for it, probably will not cause you to go to Hell, for instance. There are plenty of people that can live for extended periods of time without committing a grave sin. Sin can be trained out of man, through grace and effort. Don’t you know any holy people? The kind that never lie or steal or cheat or would never speak ill of someone else? And sure, they will occassionally slip, but not on something serious because God’s will is their will…This is what we all should attain to…

Remember, Adam and Eve’s sin was just eating a piece of fruit and they died for it. Scriupture does not distinguish the “sin” that would merit us death. Surely, there are degrees of sin, but that only serves to determine the degree of punishment in hell. It’s still hell nevertheless.

 

[paul_c]

You read again what I wrote. I mean that we just want others to have the same assurance of salvation that we have.

They do have the same assurance of salvation that you have: None, until they die and their life test is complete.

St. Paul is talking more about how we as Christians should relate to others, not salvation. Didn’t the Bible also say that “Without faith, it is impossible to please God”? The Bible mentions faith as a requisite to salvation but not love. I’m not saying love is not important, of course it is essential. However, when it comes to salvation faith is more important. Even pagans, Muslims, terrorists, and other evil men may have love in their hearts but if they do not have faith in Christ, then they cannot be saved.

So now, you presume to not only interpret for Paul but to counteract what he says in plain talk to justify your theology.

Try reading 1Corinthians 13 again, focusing on the bold RED lines:
1If I speak in human and angelic tongues but do not have love, I am a resounding gong or a clashing cymbal.
2 And if I have the gift of prophecy and comprehend all mysteries and all knowledge; if I have all faith so as to move mountains but do not have love, I am nothing. 3 If I give away everything I own, and if I hand my body over so that I may boast but do not have love, I gain nothing.
4 Love is patient, love is kind. It is not jealous, (love) is not pompous, it is not inflated,
5 it is not rude, it does not seek its own interests, it is not quick-tempered, it does not brood over injury,
6 it does not rejoice over wrongdoing but rejoices with the truth.
7 It bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
8 Love never fails. If there are prophecies, they will be brought to nothing; if tongues, they will cease; if knowledge, it will be brought to nothing.
9 For we know partially and we prophesy partially,
10 but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away.
11 When I was a child, I used to talk as a child, think as a child, reason as a child; when I became a man, I put aside childish things.
12 At present we see indistinctly, as in a mirror, but then face to face. At present I know partially; then I shall know fully, as I am fully known.
13 So faith, hope, love remain, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

So when you say Faith is greater than Love, you argue directly against what Paul is saying. When Jesus was asked the greatest commandment, what did he say: Love God with all your heart, all your strength and all your mind and Love your neighbor as yourself…

And when he was asked what it took to gain eternal life, he said (Mathew 19):
16 Now someone approached him and said, “Teacher, what good must I do to gain eternal life?”
17 He answered him, “Why do you ask me about the good? There is only One who is good. If you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.”
18 He asked him, “Which ones?” And Jesus replied, " ‘You shall not kill; you shall not commit adultery; you shall not steal; you shall not bear false witness;
19 honor your father and your mother’; and ‘you shall love your neighbor as yourself.’"

Find a verse where Jesus was asked this question directly and he answered differently. And yes Faith is essential because it leads to love and Grace. But as you should know form James 2:24: Faith without works is dead

Remember, Adam and Eve’s sin was just eating a piece of fruit and they died for it. Scriupture does not distinguish the “sin” that would merit us death. Surely, there are degrees of sin, but that only serves to determine the degree of punishment in hell. It’s still hell nevertheless.

This is exactly why there is no definitive list of Mortal sins. Its because the situation and intent are important. While physically, Adam and Eve did just eat a peice of fruit, not normally considered a mortal sin, we know that in this action they were intentionally rebelling against God, thus severing their ties with him. Here’s the sequence from Genesis 3:

1 Now the serpent was the most cunning of all the animals that the LORD God had made. The serpent asked the woman, “Did God really tell you not to eat from any of the trees in the garden?”
2 The woman answered the serpent: “We may eat of the fruit of the trees in the garden;
3 it is only about the fruit of the tree in the middle of the garden that God said, ‘You shall not eat it or even touch it, lest you die.’”
4 But the serpent said to the woman: “You certainly will not die!
5 No, God knows well that the moment you eat of it your eyes will be opened and you will be like gods who know what is good and what is bad.”
6 The woman saw that the tree was good for food, pleasing to the eyes, and desirable for gaining wisdom. So she took some of its fruit and ate it; and she also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it.

This would be completely different than a poor man stealing an apple because he was starving. Same physical action. Different intent. One was deliberately turning from God, one wasn’t.

 

[paul_c]

It depends on your view of OSAS or Eternal Security. As I’ve said in a previous post, there are those like theologians Wayne Grudem, John Piper, R.C. Sproul, etc. who link Eternal Security with Perseverance of the Saints. Only a person who perseveres until the end is a genuine Christian. Those who “fall away” were never even saved in the the first place and are not part of the elect.

Seems to me that this is no assurance at all. If this is the requirement, then you can never be assured of heaven until you die. This is exactly what Catholics believe. However, this is not what you ave been espousing. You have been clearly saying that you ARE saved and that you ARE assured of heaven… This denies the perseverance of the Saints. What do you really believe?

 

[twb1621]

I’m sorry for the short quick replies but there ahve been a lot of distractions here in the office recently (Yes, I view my work as a distraction to the prclamation of the Gospel ). Here’s a good book on the subject of the different beliefs of the various Christian churches:

CONVICTION WITHOUT COMPROMISE by Norman Geisler and Ron Rhodes.

I already addressed some of the verses you posted in my previous posts such as the gates of hell thingy.

But this is not related to the questions I asked your response to which I limited in my last post for you very specifically from prior posts. Please understand I am not presenting questions to “win” a debate, but rather to open your eyes and mind in consideration to that part of Christ’s teachings and in turn Jesus Himself that you now have a portion of. Yes, you have part of it and I am not trying to take that away from you of course, but as in any true intimate relationship between two individuals, they must always continue to build in the knowledge and understanding of each other as the relationship grows. This is a never ending process in human life. God of course knows you intimately but as long as you have not developed the fullness of the relationship intertwined throughout all scripture, you are restricted by your own pride or fear avoiding the possibility you may be less aware than you believed. Devotion to Our Lord in its truest form enables us to seek the fullness in truth regardless of where they leads, as it leads to the deepest most intimate loving relationship a human being can enter into with God.

Allow me to reflect on a comment you just made to joe1972;

*My issue with Catholic soteriology is that they have no assurance of salvation.

The teachings of Christ in Catholicism are just that, Christ’s teachings presented to the world as instructed by Christ Himself. They are taught as He commanded, to be observed IN ALL, in their entirety, completely as I presented to you in one of the previous verses that you did not respond to. It should eventually come to your awareness that the beliefs you follow are in relation to only part of scripture while other parts are pushed aside out of inconsistencies or confusion. The Catholic Church teaches the fullness of Christ’s teachings and an indicator of that are some (not all but some) of your beliefs, as is the case with other non-Catholic Christian faiths. Faiths that have removed or lessened or made easier their system of beliefs by removing what may not be easy to accept or understand and lessening the responsibility the faithful are called to.

There is not one single protestant born faith that teaches all or can show consistency and totality throughout all scripture without conflict arising between verses at some point. That is because although every single non-Catholic Christian faith holds some beliefs taken from the Catholic Faith, they removed from their teachings what they could not believe or accept through faith and altered the remaining teachings to adapt. There is no conflict in any of Scripture and nothing should have been removed or pushed aside. I say again, scripture is the Inspired Word of God and does not conflict with itself. The Gospels as were taught by the apostles, their direct and most subsequent successors the apostolic Fathers and the Early Church Fathers and so on, throughout the history of Christianity prove those teachings. Even the initial establishment of the hierarchy of the Catholic Church is shown in scripture and the establishment of this Church from the beginning was to protect Christ’s teachings (through the Deposit of Faith) from being altered or distorted as is happened over and over and over in all other Christian faiths separated from the true Church founded by Christ with His Blood.

Doesn’t it make you suspect why non-Catholic Christian faiths often change actual teachings they claimed were of Christ to socially conform as the pressure of a more liberal society and desire for conveniences increase?

continued next post…

 

[twb1621]

…I already addressed some of the verses you posted in my previous posts such as the gates of hell thingy.

Salvation is through faith, yes, and according to the teachings of Christ, it is the expression of faith through works of love in charity, with humility, in the love of Christ. If you do not understand this, please ask for supportive passages to help clarify it for you. Consider the following passage from James;

James CH2; 15 If a brother or sister has nothing to wear and has no food for the day, 16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, keep warm, and eat well,” but you do not give them the necessities of the body, what good is it? 17 So also faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead. 18 Indeed someone might say, “You have faith and I have works.” Demonstrate your faith to me without works, and I will demonstrate my faith to you from my works. 19 You believe that God is one. You do well. Even the demons believe that and tremble. 20 Do you want proof, you ignoramus (Notice the level of frustration James experience’s as reflected here), that faith without works is useless? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? 22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by the works. 23 Thus the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called “the friend of God.” 24 See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.

Now consider the following examples Christ gives us as works of love and the fact that without them, we can loss the gift of salvation;

Matthew CH25; 31 "When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit upon his glorious throne, 32 and all the nations will be assembled before him. And he will separate them one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will place the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. 34 Then the king will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, a stranger and you welcomed me, 36 naked and you clothed me, ill and you cared for me, in prison and you visited me.’ 37 Then the righteous will answer him and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? 39 When did we see you ill or in prison, and visit you?’ 40 And the king will say to them in reply, ‘Amen, I say to you, whatever you did for one of these least brothers of mine, you did for me.’

41 Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, 43 a stranger and you gave me no welcome, naked and you gave me no clothing, ill and in prison, and you did not care for me.’ 44 Then they will answer and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or ill or in prison, and not minister to your needs?’ 45 He will answer them, ‘Amen, I say to you, what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me.’ 46 And these will go off to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

The works we speak of are works of love in charity toward others, humbly, not boastfully, in the love of Christ. These works are well explained through examples Christ gave us above. They are not by any means an attempt to “earn” salvation, but rather to live up to our responsibility to the salvation gifted to us through the passion, death and resurrection of Christ.

 

[Bengoshi]

Seems to me that this is no assurance at all. If this is the requirement, then you can never be assured of heaven until you die. This is exactly what Catholics believe. However, this is not what you ave been espousing. You have been clearly saying that you ARE saved and that you ARE assured of heaven… This denies the perseverance of the Saints. What do you really believe?

I hold the view espoused by Dr. Grudem. The assurance that I have is of the present. Since I have not fallen away from the faith as of this moment, and I know and hope within myself that I would not, then as of the moment, I am assured of my salvation and election. So, if anyone asks me now if I am saved, then I would say ‘yes’. If this is the position that the Catholic Church holds, then I have no problem with it. I do not agree with Charles Stanley’s view of Eternal Security although I highly respect and admire him as a pastor. He teaches that if a person at one point in his/her life, sincerely confesses that ‘Jesus is Lord’ and accepts Him into his/her life as Lord and Savior, then that person, regardless of what happens in the future, even if s/he completely rejects Christ afterwards, is still saved. That, is the OSAS that I do not believe in. I hold to Calvin’s TULIP.

 

[Bengoshi]

Salvation is through faith, yes, and according to the teachings of Christ, it is the expression of faith through works of love in charity, with humility, in the love of Christ. If you do not understand this, please ask for supportive passages to help clarify it for you. Consider the following passage from James;

James CH2; 15 If a brother or sister has nothing to wear and has no food for the day, 16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, keep warm, and eat well,” but you do not give them the necessities of the body, what good is it? 17 So also faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead. 18 Indeed someone might say, “You have faith and I have works.” Demonstrate your faith to me without works, and I will demonstrate my faith to you from my works. 19 You believe that God is one. You do well. Even the demons believe that and tremble. 20 Do you want proof, you ignoramus (Notice the level of frustration James experience’s as reflected here), that faith without works is useless? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? 22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by the works. 23 Thus the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called “the friend of God.” 24 See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.

Now consider the following examples Christ gives us as works of love and the fact that without them, we can loss the gift of salvation;

Matthew CH25; 31 "When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit upon his glorious throne, 32 and all the nations will be assembled before him. And he will separate them one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will place the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. 34 Then the king will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, a stranger and you welcomed me, 36 naked and you clothed me, ill and you cared for me, in prison and you visited me.’ 37 Then the righteous will answer him and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? 39 When did we see you ill or in prison, and visit you?’ 40 And the king will say to them in reply, ‘Amen, I say to you, whatever you did for one of these least brothers of mine, you did for me.’

41 Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, 43 a stranger and you gave me no welcome, naked and you gave me no clothing, ill and in prison, and you did not care for me.’ 44 Then they will answer and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or ill or in prison, and not minister to your needs?’ 45 He will answer them, ‘Amen, I say to you, what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me.’ 46 And these will go off to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

The works we speak of are works of love in charity toward others, humbly, not boastfully, in the love of Christ. These works are well explained through examples Christ gave us above. They are not by any means an attempt to “earn” salvation, but rather to live up to our responsibility to the salvation gifted to us through the passion, death and resurrection of Christ.

If that’s how you put it, then I agree with everything you said in this post. Genuine Christians will do good works because their faith in Christ compels them to. Faith in Christ produces true love in the believer. We must always remember however, that all these things, our faith, hope and love, comes from God. It is only by His sovereign grace that we are able to do anything good at all.

 

[paul_c]

If that’s how you put it, then I agree with everything you said in this post. Genuine Christians will do good works because their faith in Christ compels them to. Faith in Christ produces true love in the believer. We must always remember however, that all these things, our faith, hope and love, comes from God. It is only by His sovereign grace that we are able to do anything good at all.

Yes, it is by the grace of God that we are saved. But there is also personal merit in doing the good works we were made to do. Personal merit does not in any way diminish the work Jesus did on the cross. We do good works because we love God and he showed us what to do…

 

[paul_c]

I hold the view espoused by Dr. Grudem. The assurance that I have is of the present. Since I have not fallen away from the faith as of this moment, and I know and hope within myself that I would not, then as of the moment, I am assured of my salvation and election. So, if anyone asks me now if I am saved, then I would say ‘yes’. If this is the position that the Catholic Church holds, then I have no problem with it. I do not agree with Charles Stanley’s view of Eternal Security although I highly respect and admire him as a pastor. He teaches that if a person at one point in his/her life, sincerely confesses that ‘Jesus is Lord’ and accepts Him into his/her life as Lord and Savior, then that person, regardless of what happens in the future, even if s/he completely rejects Christ afterwards, is still saved. That, is the OSAS that I do not believe in. I hold to Calvin’s TULIP.

So if you hold that view, why did you say that the problem with Catholics is that their salvation is not assured? You see, when we walk out o fthe confessional, we are in the state of grace and if we were to die at that moment, we would go to heaven. But we also know that if we fall from grace through sin, then we must be reconciled sacramentally or we will be condemned to hell. It now seems that you feel much the same way…

 

[Bengoshi]

So if you hold that view, why did you say that the problem with Catholics is that their salvation is not assured? You see, when we walk out o fthe confessional, we are in the state of grace and if we were to die at that moment, we would go to heaven. But we also know that if we fall from grace through sin, then we must be reconciled sacramentally or we will be condemned to hell. It now seems that you feel much the same way…

Well…there is a slight but significant difference however. If I may illustrate. Let’s say Max, a Catholic, comes out of the confessional and is now in the state of grace, but commits a mortal sin, let say, after 3 hours, and immediately after that gets hit by a bus while crossing the street and dies. Will he still be saved and ultimately go to heaven? According to Catholic theology, he wouldn’t, he would go to hell. In contrast, Sam, a Protestant, after sincerely repenting of his sins to God, commits what the RCC classifies as a mortal sin 3 hours thereafter without abandoning his faith and love for Christ, and immediately gets hits by a bus while crossing the street, causing his instantaneous death, would according to Protestant theology, still be saved and go to heaven. That is the kind of assurance I am talking about. Do you see the difference?

 

[Bengoshi]

Yes, it is by the grace of God that we are saved. But there is also personal merit in doing the good works we were made to do. Personal merit does not in any way diminish the work Jesus did on the cross. We do good works because we love God and he showed us what to do…

This is where we will disagree. Our good works will not merit us anything (Eph. 2:8-9; Gal. 2:16; Rom. 3:28). Our good works are however evidence of our faith in God. We will know a disciple by his fruits.

 

[Pitcharan]

… My issue with Catholic soteriology is that they have no assurance of salvation.

The CC cannot offer an assurance other than what God offers. The offer of salvation is made clear at the very outset. How to attain it? What is our role? What are the pitfalls? what are the aids? The CC is God’s own institution for salavtion and offers no more and no less than what God offers. Neither CC nor God can impose salvation, which by definition has to be gained by free exercise of will that is in harmony with God’s will. The role of the CC is to reach out to all people and guide them to salvation. CC is instituted by God who was unhappy with the Levitic shepherds and promised to appoint Davidic shepherds after His own heart.(read Ezekiel)

 

[Pitcharan]

Continuing from previous post:
INSTITUTION OF CATHOLIC CHURCH BY GOD, FORETOLD IN THE OT
Then I will give you shepherds after my own heart, who will lead you with knowledge and understanding. (Jer 3:15)

“Woe to the shepherds who are destroying and scattering the sheep of my pasture!” declares the LORD. Therefore this is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says to the shepherds who tend my people: “Because you have scattered my flock and driven them away and have not bestowed care on them, I will bestow punishment on you for the evil you have done,” declares the LORD. "I myself will gather the remnant of my flock out of all the countries where I have driven them and will bring them back to their pasture, where they will be fruitful and increase in number. I will place shepherds over them who will tend them, and they will no longer be afraid or terrified, nor will any be missing," declares the LORD. (Jer 23:1-4)

This is what the Sovereign LORD says: I am against the shepherds and will hold them accountable for my flock. I will remove them from tending the flock so that the shepherds can no longer feed themselves. I will rescue my flock from their mouths, and it will no longer be food for them. " 'For this is what the Sovereign LORD says: I myself will search for my sheep and look after them. As a shepherd looks after his scattered flock when he is with them, so will I look after my sheep. I will rescue them from all the places where they were scattered on a day of clouds and darkness. I will bring them out from the nations and gather them from the countries, and I will bring them into their own land. I will pasture them on the mountains of Israel, in the ravines and in all the settlements in the land. I myself will tend my sheep and have them lie down, declares the Sovereign LORD. I will search for the lost and bring back the strays. I will bind up the injured and strengthen the weak, but the sleek and the strong I will destroy. I will shepherd the flock with justice. I will place over them one shepherd, my servant David, and he will tend them; he will tend them and be their shepherd. (Ezekiel 34: 10-13, 15-16 & 23)

 

[Michael_Francis]

***This has been split from “Tackling Predestination” which was closed because it wandered away from its topic.

This however is a viable topic, so please carry on.***

 

[Bengoshi]

***This has been split from “Tackling Predestination” which was closed because it wandered away from its topic.

This however is a viable topic, so please carry on.***

Yes, I suppose it really did wander away from its topic. Thanks!

 

[twb1621]

Yes, I suppose it really did wander away from its topic. Thanks!

I am providing you these posts once again for your response under the premise that one must be able to know where in salvation exists in order to properly seek and live by its covenant, that being the Covenant made by Jesus with His Church, His Bride, His Body.

Going back to the post you very limitedly responded to here, you did not answer the majority of scriptural references I asked of you, but at this point will again refer to even just a couple;

1 Corinthians CH1; 10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing, and that there be no schisms among you; but that you be perfect in the same mind, and in the same judgment.

1. Consider deeply and truthfully, can you credibly justify the principles of Sola Scriptura and the thousands of individual interpretations including yours and the many independent churches SC has led to against scripture itself? Can you credibly claim you speak the same thing, that you are a part of no schismatic movement and that you are perfect in the same mind and same judgment as the teachings of the Church Jesus founded established with the apostles and continued through the apostolic Fathers and their successors have attested to for 2000 years?

These are some of the proclamations Jesus made in His covenant between Him and the Church He founded with His Blood:

The gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.

I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age."

The Spirit of truth, he will guide you to all truth. He will not speak on his own, but he will speak what he hears, and will declare to you the things that are coming. (future revelation).

I point out once again, To suggest that Jesus, in any way did not keep the covenant He made with His Church is to accuse Jesus of failing to keep His Word and there is truly no way around that.

1. Can you credibly question the commitment and ability of our Lord to oversee His Church, to so love her in her devotion and purge her of her corruption as and when He determines appropriate to Him? Does man know better than God and isn’t the existence of so many “Christian” faiths a testament to just that?

 

[twb1621]

Originally Posted by Bengoshi forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_khaki/viewpost.gif
I’m sorry for the short quick replies but there ahve been a lot of distractions here in the office recently (Yes, I view my work as a distraction to the prclamation of the Gospel ). Here’s a good book on the subject of the different beliefs of the various Christian churches:

CONVICTION WITHOUT COMPROMISE by Norman Geisler and Ron Rhodes.

I already addressed some of the verses you posted in my previous posts such as the gates of hell thingy.

But this is not related to the questions I asked your response to which I limited in my last post for you very specifically from prior posts. Please understand I am not presenting questions to “win” a debate, but rather to open your eyes and mind in consideration to that part of Christ’s teachings and in turn Jesus Himself that you now have a portion of. Yes, you have part of it and I am not trying to take that away from you of course, but as in any true intimate relationship between two individuals, they must always continue to build in the knowledge and understanding of each other as the relationship grows. This is a never ending process in human life. God of course knows you intimately but as long as you have not developed the fullness of the relationship intertwined throughout all scripture, you are restricted by your own pride or fear avoiding the possibility you may be less aware than you believed. Devotion to Our Lord in its truest form enables us to seek the fullness in truth regardless of where they leads, as it leads to the deepest most intimate loving relationship a human being can enter into with God.

Allow me to reflect on a comment you just made to joe1972;

*My issue with Catholic soteriology is that they have no assurance of salvation.

The teachings of Christ in Catholicism are just that, Christ’s teachings presented to the world as instructed by Christ Himself. They are taught as He commanded, to be observed IN ALL, in their entirety, completely as I presented to you in one of the previous verses that you did not respond to. It should eventually come to your awareness that the beliefs you follow are in relation to only part of scripture while other parts are pushed aside out of inconsistencies or confusion. The Catholic Church teaches the fullness of Christ’s teachings and an indicator of that are some (not all but some) of your beliefs, as is the case with other non-Catholic Christian faiths. Faiths that have removed or lessened or made easier their system of beliefs by removing what may not be easy to accept or understand and lessening the responsibility the faithful are called to.

There is not one single protestant born faith that teaches all or can show consistency and totality throughout all scripture without conflict arising between verses at some point. That is because although every single non-Catholic Christian faith holds some beliefs taken from the Catholic Faith, they removed from their teachings what they could not believe or accept through faith and altered the remaining teachings to adapt. There is no conflict in any of Scripture and nothing should have been removed or pushed aside. I say again, scripture is the Inspired Word of God and does not conflict with itself. The Gospels as were taught by the apostles, their direct and most subsequent successors the apostolic Fathers and the Early Church Fathers and so on, throughout the history of Christianity prove those teachings. Even the initial establishment of the hierarchy of the Catholic Church is shown in scripture and the establishment of this Church from the beginning was to protect Christ’s teachings (through the Deposit of Faith) from being altered or distorted as is happened over and over and over in all other Christian faiths separated from the true Church founded by Christ with His Blood.

Doesn’t it make you suspect why non-Catholic Christian faiths often change actual teachings they claimed were of Christ to socially conform as the pressure of a more liberal society and desire for conveniences increase?

continued next post…