SPLIT: Catholics have no assurance of salvation

[journierman]

Seems to me that this is no assurance at all. If this is the requirement, then you can never be assured of heaven until you die. This is exactly what Catholics believe. However, this is not what you ave been espousing. You have been clearly saying that you ARE saved and that you ARE assured of heaven… This denies the perseverance of the Saints. What do you really believe?

Yup, that is exactly right. If you see folks who used to live like good PRotestants, they gave every sign of being “born again Christians” but then they fall away all the folks will say is, “Oh, they were never saved to begin with.” As if we all don’t know in our own hearts that we could do the same. As you say that is no assurance at all. With the Catholics these folks should have the humility to say I believe I’m in God’s graces and trusting in his grace I hope to perservere.

 

[guanophore]

This is where we will disagree. Our good works will not merit us anything (Eph. 2:8-9; Gal. 2:16; Rom. 3:28). Our good works are however evidence of our faith in God. We will know a disciple by his fruits.

I think this is just a semantics problem. The Gk term translated as “reward” in most modern Bibles is translated “merit” in the Vulgate. If you do a search on “rewards” in the NT, I think it will be clear that there are plenty of them for doing good works.

 

[guanophore]

Well…there is a slight but significant difference however. If I may illustrate. Let’s say Max, a Catholic, comes out of the confessional and is now in the state of grace, but commits a mortal sin, let say, after 3 hours, and immediately after that gets hit by a bus while crossing the street and dies. Will he still be saved and ultimately go to heaven? According to Catholic theology, he wouldn’t, he would go to hell. In contrast, Sam, a Protestant, after sincerely repenting of his sins to God, commits what the RCC classifies as a mortal sin 3 hours thereafter without abandoning his faith and love for Christ, and immediately gets hits by a bus while crossing the street, causing his instantaneous death, would according to Protestant theology, still be saved and go to heaven. That is the kind of assurance I am talking about. Do you see the difference?

Here is the problem with your scenario Ben. It is impossible to commit a mortal sin if one has faith and love for Christ. A mortal sin, by definition, involves a knowing and willful rejection of these theological virtues.

The difference I see is that, according to your theology, it is possible to turn one’s back on the saving grace of God, and still be saved.

 

[Bengoshi]

I think this is just a semantics problem. The Gk term translated as “reward” in most modern Bibles is translated “merit” in the Vulgate. If you do a search on “rewards” in the NT, I think it will be clear that there are plenty of them for doing good works.

Yes, you are right. Good works will definitely “earn” us rewards in Heaven. What I meant when I said that it doesn’t merit us anything is with regard to salvation. Salvation is an act of God alone, however, our good works will determine the rewards we will receive once we’re in God’s presence in Heaven.

 

[Bengoshi]

Here is the problem with your scenario Ben. It is impossible to commit a mortal sin if one has faith and love for Christ. A mortal sin, by definition, involves a knowing and willful rejection of these theological virtues.

If that is the case, then that’s good. If what you say about mortal sin is true, then wouldn’t there be no more need to go to confession (to a priest) since venial sins would still allow one to go to Heaven, albeit, spend some time in purgatory first?

The difference I see is that, according to your theology, it is possible to turn one’s back on the saving grace of God, and still be saved.

No, of course not. I don’t believe that. I subscribe to the ‘Perseverance of the Saints’ remember? That’s Charles Stanley’s view, not mine.

 

[Pitcharan]

If that is the case, then that’s good. If what you say about mortal sin is true, then wouldn’t there be no more need to go to confession (to a priest) since venial sins would still allow one to go to Heaven, albeit, spend some time in purgatory first?

Knowingly avoiding confession of ‘venial sins’ to a priest amounts to willful rejection of theological virtues

 

[paul_c]

Originally Posted by guanophore
Here is the problem with your scenario Ben. It is impossible to commit a mortal sin if one has faith and love for Christ. A mortal sin, by definition, involves a knowing and willful rejection of these theological virtues.

If you don’t sin, there is no requirement to go to confession. If your sins are limited to venial sins, then you can still benefit from the graces and spiritual direction associated with the sacrament of reconciliation.

Originally Posted by guanophore
The difference I see is that, according to your theology, it is possible to turn one’s back on the saving grace of God, and still be saved.

But yet, you say:

Bengoshi:

Yes, you are right. Good works will definitely “earn” us rewards in Heaven. What I meant when I said that it doesn’t merit us anything is with regard to salvation. Salvation is an act of God alone, however, our good works will determine the rewards we will receive once we’re in God’s presence in Heaven.

So you are inconsistent here. Either your works are required to enter heaven (perseverence of the Saints) or they are not…

 

[Bengoshi]

So you are inconsistent here. Either your works are required to enter heaven (perseverence of the Saints) or they are not…

No, it’s not inconsistent. The end result may be the same with Catholic teaching but there is a hairline difference. Good works as proof of salvation is different from good works earning salvation. As I have said again and again, Salvation is an act of God alone. It is God who regenerates us in order that we may have faith in Jesus Christ. One who has been truly born again will do good works as a result of his salvation. A person will not do good works to result in salvation.

 

[Pitcharan]

… As I have said again and again, Salvation is an act of God alone. It is God who regenerates us in order that we may have faith in Jesus Christ. One who has been truly born again will do good works as a result of his salvation. A person will not do good works to result in salvation.

Dear Bengoshi, you are completely in error. The below quoted verses are sufficient to prove it. If you want, I can quote many more:

“But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked. Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful.” (Lk 6:35-36)

 

[Bengoshi]

Dear Bengoshi, you are completely in error. The below quoted verses are sufficient to prove it. If you want, I can quote many more:

“But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked. Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful.” (Lk 6:35-36)

What does this prove? It doesn’t even disprove what I said. Didn’t I say that ‘yes, our good works will earn us rewards in heaven’? It will earn us rewards in heaven but not heaven itself. Good workds determine the rewards we wil receive in heaven. Check out this commentary from the ESV Study Bible:

Luke 6:35 love your enemies. See notes on Matt. 5:44–45 and Luke 23:34. Keeping the commands of 6:35a results in your reward being great (cf. v. 23). You will be sons does not mean “you will become sons” but “you will demonstrate that you are sons” by imitating God’s care and compassion even for those who are evil. For Most High as an expression for God, cf. note on 1:32.

Matt. 5:44 Love your enemies. God hates evil, but he still brings many blessings in this life even to his enemies (v. 45) by means of “common grace” (the favor that he gives to all people and not just to believers). These blessings are intended to lead unbelievers to repentance (Acts 14:17; Rom. 2:4). Of course there is a sense in which God hates those who are resolutely and impenitently wicked (cf. Ps. 5:5; 11:5; Eph. 2:3), but God’s blessings of common grace constitute his primary providential action toward mankind here and now.

Matt. 5:45 sons. The children of the heavenly Father are those who respond to his will as expressed in the ministry of Jesus (cf. 12:48–50). (Regarding “sons” [Gk. huioi], see esv Preface.) sun … rain. God shows grace and care for all of his creatures; therefore Jesus’ disciples are to imitate God and love both neighbor and enemy.

 

[Pitcharan]

What does this prove? It doesn’t even disprove what I said. Didn’t I say that ‘yes, our good works will earn us rewards in heaven’? It will earn us rewards in heaven but not heaven itself. Good workds determine the rewards we wil receive in heaven. Check out this commentary from the ESV Study Bible:

Luke 6:35 love your enemies. See notes on Matt. 5:44–45 and Luke 23:34. Keeping the commands of 6:35a results in your reward being great (cf. v. 23). You will be sons does not mean “you will become sons” but “you will demonstrate that you are sons” by imitating God’s care and compassion even for those who are evil. For Most High as an expression for God, cf. note on 1:32.

Matt. 5:44 Love your enemies. God hates evil, but he still brings many blessings in this life even to his enemies (v. 45) by means of “common grace” (the favor that he gives to all people and not just to believers). These blessings are intended to lead unbelievers to repentance (Acts 14:17; Rom. 2:4). Of course there is a sense in which God hates those who are resolutely and impenitently wicked (cf. Ps. 5:5; 11:5; Eph. 2:3), but God’s blessings of common grace constitute his primary providential action toward mankind here and now.

Matt. 5:45 sons. The children of the heavenly Father are those who respond to his will as expressed in the ministry of Jesus (cf. 12:48–50). (Regarding “sons” [Gk. huioi], see esv Preface.) sun … rain. God shows grace and care for all of his creatures; therefore Jesus’ disciples are to imitate God and love both neighbor and enemy.

You are attributing your own meanings to Gospel verses and refuting plain truth. “Being saved”, “Salvation” and “Being reborn” mean just this: you become an adopted child of God and earn a place in Heaven. If you want further clarity, then see these verses: “Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God. For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.” (John 1:12-13; 3:16)

 

[Pitcharan]

…You will be sons does not mean “you will become sons” but “you will demonstrate that you are sons” by imitating God’s care and compassion even for those who are evil. For Most High as an expression for God, cf. note on 1:32.

…How can you twist Gospel like that? The Gospel says: "Then you will be…" and NOT “You will be…”

 

[paul_c]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bengoshi;7092022…You will be sons does not mean “you will become sons” but “you will demonstrate that you are sons” by imitating God’s care and compassion even for those who are evil. For Most High as an expression for God, cf. note on 1:32.

 

[Bengoshi]

It goes further than you’ve even taken it Pitcharan: Isn’t the more blatant twisting of scripture to prove a false doctrine the changing of " Then you will be sons of God" to “You will demonstrate that you are sons” Any fair minded person would understand that this interpretation changes the actual meaning of the passage.

And Bengoshi’s view is directly in conflict with Romans 2:5-10, which clearly says that you are judged based on works and that those that do go works will go to heaven and those that do evil will go to hell:

5 By your stubbornness and impenitent heart, you are storing up wrath for yourself for the day of wrath and revelation of the just judgment of God,
6 who will repay everyone according to his works:
7 eternal life to those who seek glory, honor, and immortality through perseverance in good works,
8 but wrath and fury to those who selfishly disobey the truth and obey wickedness.
9 Yes, affliction and distress will come upon every human being who does evil, Jew first and then Greek.
10 But there will be glory, honor, and peace for everyone who does good, Jew first and then Greek.

And its is also in conflict with what the Lord himself said in all the synoptic Gospels when directly asked what it takes to gain eternal life: Here’s Matthew’s recounting (chapter 19):
16 Now someone approached him and said, “Teacher, what good must I do to gain eternal life?”
17 He answered him, “Why do you ask me about the good? There is only One who is good. If you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.”
18 He asked him, “Which ones?” And Jesus replied, " ‘You shall not kill; you shall not commit adultery; you shall not steal; you shall not bear false witness;
19 honor your father and your mother’; and ‘you shall love your neighbor as yourself.’"
20 The young man said to him, “All of these I have observed. What do I still lack?”
21 Jesus said to him, “If you wish to be perfect, go, sell what you have and give to (the) poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”
22 When the young man heard this statement, he went away sad, for he had many possessions.

This clearly Says that you must do good works (follow the commandments/ give up your goods and follow him) to gain eternal life. What could be more clear?

This concept that man has no impact on his own salvation is clearly refuted by scripture. To deny this is just lying to yourself and ducking personal responsibility…

Barnes’ Notes on the Bible

According to his deeds - That is, as he deserves; or God will be just, and will treat every man as he ought to be treated, or according to his character. The word “deeds” (ἔργα erga)is sometimes applied to the external conduct. But it is plain that this is not its meaning here. It denotes everything connected with conduct, including the acts of the mind, the motives, the principles, as well as the mere external act. Our word character more aptly expresses it than any single word. It is not true that God will treat people according to their external conduct: but the whole language of the Bible implies that he will judge people according to the whole of their conduct, including their thoughts, and principles, and motives; that is, as they deserve. The doctrine of this place is abundantly taught elsewhere in the Bible, Proverbs 24:12; Matthew 16:27; Revelation 20:12; Jeremiah 32:19. It is to be observed here that the apostle does not say that people will be rewarded for their deeds, (compare Luke 17:10,) but according to κατά kata their deeds. Christians will be saved on account of the merits of the Lord Jesus Christ, Titus 3:5, but still the rewards of heaven will be according to their works; that is, they who have labored most, and been most faithful, shall receive the highest reward, or their fidelity in their Master’s service shall be the measure or rule according to which the rewards of heaven shall be distributed, Matthew 25:14-29. Thus, the ground or reason why they are saved shall be the merits of the Lord Jesus. The measure of their happiness shall be according to their character and deeds. On what principle God will distribute his rewards the apostle proceeds immediately to state.

Gill’s Exposition of the Entire Bible

Who will render to every man according to his deeds. God will be the Judge, who is righteous, holy, just, and true; every man in particular will be judged; as the judgment will be general to all, it will be special to everyone, and will proceed according to their works; for God will render to wicked men according to the demerit of their sins, the just recompense of reward, eternal damnation; and to good men eternal life, not according to the merit of their good works, which have none in them, but according to the nature of them; such who believe in Christ, and perform good works from a principle of grace, shall receive the reward of the inheritance, which is a reward of grace, and not of debt. In other words, God will render to evil men according to the true desert of their evil deeds; and of his own free grace will render to good men, whom he has made so by his grace, what is suitable and agreeable to those good works, which, by the assistance of his grace, they have been enabled to perform.

In the Parable of the Rich Young Ruler, Jesus was merely illustrating how difficult, if not impossible, the rich could enter the Kingdom of God due to their attachment to their earthly riches. A Jew’s mindset during that time was legalistic and the rich young man was already self-righteous in that regard. Jesus went to expose the sin in his heart that’s why he said those things.

 

[Philthy]

The Bible mentions faith as a requisite to salvation but not love.

C’mon, this is ridiculous. God IS love - how do you suppose we can know God and His Son (Scriptures definition of eternal life) without knowing love? Paul explicitly says that if you have all faith but have not love you are nothing, and I can assure you he didnt mean you were a “saved” nothing.

I’m not saying love is not important, of course it is essential. However, when it comes to salvation faith is more important.

What? Of course you are saying love is unimportant - what’s it important for if it isnt a requisite to salvation??

Even pagans, Muslims, terrorists, and other evil men may have love in their hearts but if they do not have faith in Christ, then they cannot be saved.

Ready for a shocker? Even those who feel assured of their salvation and who believe they have faith in Christ will not be saved if they do not have love.

Tell you what. I am bored stiff of discussing “salvation” with Protestants because you focus on the initial condition of “getting saved” through faith (ie belief in Christ) and assume it is the only condition for every aspect of our salvation (ie perseverance). They are different. There is a difference between “being saved” and “inheriting the Kingdom of God” (ie Heaven). Try rereading 1Cor, Galatians and Ephesians with this distinction in mind and you will clearly see that the same Paul who told the Ephesians that “salvation is by grace through faith, not by works” telling the very same folks that if they get circumcised then they have “fallen from Grace” and “Christ will be no benefit” to them and that “greedy people have no inheritance in Christ or God”. They were “saved” by grace through faith but their ultimate salvation (ie inheriting the Kingdom) was still in jeopardy.

Scriupture does not distinguish the “sin” that would merit us death. Surely, there are degrees of sin, but that only serves to determine the degree of punishment in hell. It’s still hell nevertheless.

You have not a clue on this. Scripture is replete with sins that warrant death and sins that warrant other things. Have you not read the OT books of leviticus and deuteronomy? You do realize that God authored them, do you not? Furthermore, 1 John 5:16-17 CLEARLY tells us that all wrongdoing is sin, BUT NOT ALL SIN IS DEADLY. Here it is:
If anyone sees his brother sinning, if the sin is not deadly, he should pray to God and he will give him life. This is only for those whose sin is not deadly. There is such a thing as deadly sin, about which I do not say that you should pray. All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin that is not deadly."

We can have a reasonable assurance about our salvation today, but claiming to have an assurance with respect to the future is simply not biblical. You dont know who will sin against you in the future and whether you will be able to forgive them (condition for being forgiven by God; Matt 6:14); you dont have absolute assurance that you wont drift away from the faith(some OSAS/eternal security types have done it Im afraid). It doesnt mean you need to obsess about it, it’s simply a fact of life. We have faith, hope and love and love is the greatest of these. Trust in God and he will give you peace, but your eternal destiny will most likely not be revealed to you.

Blessings!

 

[Pitcharan]

Dear Bengoshi, you could not have received better insights on salvation, than what has been pin pointed by Paul, Philthy, me and many others. Why are refusing to accept truth and clinging to your misconceptions which have been so clearly proven wrong? Please accept truth and do not remain in darkness.

Regards, prayers and best wishes
Pitcharan

 

[RobbyS]

Actually, there’s no need to worry about that because there is no sadness in heaven. You won’t even feel bad about your children who are in hell. It’s as if there is a one-way mirror between heaven and hell. Those in heaven see the joy of those in heaven but those in heaven will not see the suffering of those in hell (THE LIFE TO COME by Rev. Dr. William Girao). My issue with Catholic soteriology is that they have no assurance of salvation. Check out these links:

bible-truth.org/assuran2.html

bible-truth.org/Assuran1.htm

The kind of assurance that is familiar to evangelicals today was certainly unknown to the Puritans. They were as much believers in the Bible as evangelicals. Does that not tell you that such a doctrine is hardly self-evident?

 

[guanophore]

Yes, you are right. Good works will definitely “earn” us rewards in Heaven. What I meant when I said that it doesn’t merit us anything is with regard to salvation. Salvation is an act of God alone, however, our good works will determine the rewards we will receive once we’re in God’s presence in Heaven.

This statement represents a significant departure from what the Apostles believed and taught.

 

[paul_c]

Barnes’ Notes on the Bible

According to his deeds - That is, as he deserves; or God will be just, and will treat every man as he ought to be treated, or according to his character. The word “deeds” (ἔργα erga)is sometimes applied to the external conduct. But it is plain that this is not its meaning here. It denotes everything connected with conduct, including the acts of the mind, the motives, the principles, as well as the mere external act. Our word character more aptly expresses it than any single word. It is not true that God will treat people according to their external conduct: but the whole language of the Bible implies that he will judge people according to the whole of their conduct, including their thoughts, and principles, and motives; that is, as they deserve. The doctrine of this place is abundantly taught elsewhere in the Bible, Proverbs 24:12; Matthew 16:27; Revelation 20:12; Jeremiah 32:19. It is to be observed here that the apostle does not say that people will be rewarded for their deeds, (compare Luke 17:10,) but according to κατά kata their deeds. Christians will be saved on account of the merits of the Lord Jesus Christ, Titus 3:5, but still the rewards of heaven will be according to their works; that is, they who have labored most, and been most faithful, shall receive the highest reward, or their fidelity in their Master’s service shall be the measure or rule according to which the rewards of heaven shall be distributed, Matthew 25:14-29. Thus, the ground or reason why they are saved shall be the merits of the Lord Jesus. The measure of their happiness shall be according to their character and deeds.

Who is Barnes? What makes him competent or authorized to interpret the bible? He starts off by claiming that deeds means character, ignoring the examples that Paul gives in the passage, which clearly are works or lack of works. Why do you read this guy? He’s simply bending the truth to make it fit his view of God, rather than bend his view of God to fit the truth.

Gill’s Exposition of the Entire Bible

Who will render to every man according to his deeds. God will be the Judge, who is righteous, holy, just, and true; every man in particular will be judged; as the judgment will be general to all, it will be special to everyone, and will proceed according to their works; for God will render to wicked men according to the demerit of their sins, the just recompense of reward, eternal damnation; and to good men eternal life, not according to the merit of their good works, which have none in them, but according to the nature of them; such who believe in Christ, and perform good works from a principle of grace, shall receive the reward of the inheritance, which is a reward of grace, and not of debt. In other words, God will render to evil men according to the true desert of their evil deeds; and of his own free grace will render to good men, whom he has made so by his grace, what is suitable and agreeable to those good works, which, by the assistance of his grace, they have been enabled to perform.

Again, who is Gill and what makes his intepretations authorized or believable?
But at least this guy recognizes that you will be rewarded according to your works. He just doesn’t recognize that there is merit in doig what god made you to do. He, therefore, denies free will.

In the Parable of the Rich Young Ruler, Jesus was merely illustrating how difficult, if not impossible, the rich could enter the Kingdom of God due to their attachment to their earthly riches. A Jew’s mindset during that time was legalistic and the rich young man was already self-righteous in that regard. Jesus went to expose the sin in his heart that’s why he said those things.

This wasn’t a parable. This was the reporting of an incident that took place. A rich man asked Jesus what it took to enter heaven. He was given the answer “follow the commandments.” This can not be explained away. When the man wanted to go further, Jesus said to be PERFECT, you must give away what you have and follow him.

Look. You can read the Bible as its meant to be read: as straight forward truth. Or you can persist in twisting it to say something you want it to say.

Lets look at the motivations of the two camps:

The Catholics believe that men have a role in their salvation and that this means that every individual needs to work on his holiness: avoiding sin and loving God and neighbor. While recognizing that Salvation is impossible without God and the saving actions of Jesus, we also recognize that God gave man free will and the choice to pursue heaven or hell. It motivates man toward Good and love, which is what is desired by God.

The Reformed position that you are espousing says that man has NO role and no responsibility for his salvation. It effectively eliminates man’s free will and makes him a puppet rather than a participant in the world he lives in. It renders all moral teaching worthless because by implication, man will only follow what he was made to follow. It tends toward irresponsibility, because indeed, under this theology, man has no responsibility for that which really matters: his salvation. Further, it puts God in the position of arbitrarily condemning some while rewarding others for things they have no impact on. Where is the just God of the bible in that? And lets not revert to the tired line of " who can Judge God". While it is true that God understands much that we do not, it is equally true that the fundamental moral truth that it is not just to condemn an innocent man is well within our ability to understand.

What theological truth would you put forward if you were God? One that motivated men to do his will or one that says “nothing you do matters?”

 

[twb1621]

…

Ben, why are you still avoiding the posts I presented you. Be honest, are you having difficulty explaining them against what you believe? Respectfully, please respond to those posts or explain why you will not.

Peace my brother…