SPLIT: Confession to priest not necessary

[Scoobyshme]

I have never found anywhere in Scripture where it says to confess our sins straight to God.

I have found where Jesus gives His Apostles His authority to forgive sins (John 20). Jesus told the Apostles, “As the Father has sent Me, I send you.” How did the Father send Jesus? With ALL heavenly authority! Even the Pharisees had problems with Jesus’ claim to the authority to forgive sins. Plus, how did the Early Chrstians understand this idea of Confessing sins to the Apostles and their successors?

 

[promethius]

Protestants do confess directly to God. But we also go to the person(s) we have wronged, apologize and do whatever we can to repair the damage and be reconciled to our brothers and sisters in Christ.

In all the years I was Catholic, I was never asked to do anything more than say x number of Hail Mary’s and y number of the Lord’s Prayer for penance.

You had poor catechisis then. Reconciliation demands atonement for our sins. penance, what you discuss in your second paragraph, is to reconcile the damage that sin causes internally to our own soul, and does not exclude the obligation to make things right with the offended party (if one exists)

I find it much more humbling to talk to God directly and go directly to the person who may tell me off and not accept my apology.

Really? I’d say it takes a lot more courage and humility to confess your sins to a priest and receive counseling back, as well as to accept penance to heal from the sin. Further, as already stated, if you had offended someone and WEREN’T reconciling with them, you were failing to do your part as a catholic.

So, I don’t feel any need for a priest as God is the one who will decide whether or not I am forgiven. God knows that I am truly sorry and God knows the best way to set things right again.

Really? You FEEL there isn’t a need for a priest? Since when has worshiping God been about YOUR feelings? The point of religion is that we meet God under HIS standards, not our own. Religion changes us. This idea that you “feel” this is what you want to do cheapens faith and undermines the burden of the cross that we should carry.

To add to that, what you FEEL isn’t in keeping with the scriptures, which clearly state that the ability to take confessions, to bind and loose sins, and to execute sacramental authority was given to the apostles. Further, I’m sure God does know that you’re sorry, and does know the best course, but how are YOU sure that YOU can properly guage and accept the guidance of God? Do you have a phone line to heaven that we should be aware of? No? Priests are trained in theology to understand what penance is needed to heal the damage of sin to the soul. Without that training and lacking the clarity of mind to properly self-determine penance (a clarity we ALL lack), one cannot properly determine an appropriate amount of penance to recover the soul from it’s wounds

 

[TobyLue]

Ginger2 said

I believe Catholics have misinterpreted the Scripture they use to support this doctrine.

to which WindGirl said

You’re not alone.

I think its funny how non-Catholics accuse the CC of “misinterpreting” scripture. By what authority do THEY interpret it? These teachings were not around for 1500 years BEFORE and AFTER the Word of God was written down. Now here ( from CA) are just a few quotes from the Early Fathers and there was no KJV around for them to misinterpret.

• Origen, a prolific theologian in the third-century Church, wrote:
  The layman who falls into sin cannot by himself wash away his fault. He must have recourse to the levite; he needs the priest. At times, he applies to one even greater: he needs the pontiff’s help, that he may obtain the forgiveness of sins (*Hom. in Numeros *10, 1).
• St. Cyprian, bishop of Carthage, also writing in the third century, said:
  I entreat you, brethren, that each one should confess his own sin while he who has sinned is still in this world, while his confession may be received, while his satisfaction and absolution given the priest are still pleasing to the Lord (*De lapsis *28, 29).
• In the fourth century, St. Ambrose, bishop of Milan, wrote:
  Sins are forgiven through the Holy Ghost. Certainly, but men lend him their ministry. . . . They forgive sin, not in their own name, but in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost (De Spiritu Sancto iii, 137).
  We know that the Bible when it was canonized COULD NOT CONTRADICT ANY OF THE TEACHINGS OF THE EARLY CHURCH. So to say that the CC misinterprets scripture to support their doctrine have it backwards. It is the Non-Catholics that misinterpret scripture because the CC’s interpretations of scripture go back to before there was any scripture to interpret. These were the teachings of the Church from its beginnings. Jesus gave HIS teachings to HIS Apostles. Those Apostles gave those teachings to their disciples, and those disciples passed those same things down the line generation after generation to the present. They have remained the same. Now we get these self-professed “learned people” who will read into scripture and twist it to suit their own doctrines or even “feelings” and accuse the Church of misinterpreting it. If an interpretations does not go back to what the Early Church taught, then YOUR interpretation is all wrong, simple as that…

 

[WindGirl]

I agree with you on this point. I think, in the end, many people are going to be extremely surprised to find that the Church was correct for the 1500 years before the second savior or the world, Martin Luther, came along.

Or there will be other kind of surprises. We all may get a surpise or two.

 

[WindGirl]

Ginger2 said to which WindGirl said I think its funny how non-Catholics accuse the CC of “misinterpreting” scripture. By what authority do THEY interpret it? These teachings were not around for 1500 years BEFORE and AFTER the Word of God was written down. Now here ( from CA) are just a few quotes from the Early Fathers and there was no KJV around for them to misinterpret.

• Origen, a prolific theologian in the third-century Church, wrote:
  The layman who falls into sin cannot by himself wash away his fault. He must have recourse to the levite; he needs the priest. At times, he applies to one even greater: he needs the pontiff’s help, that he may obtain the forgiveness of sins (*Hom. in Numeros *10, 1).
• St. Cyprian, bishop of Carthage, also writing in the third century, said:
  I entreat you, brethren, that each one should confess his own sin while he who has sinned is still in this world, while his confession may be received, while his satisfaction and absolution given the priest are still pleasing to the Lord (*De lapsis *28, 29).
• In the fourth century, St. Ambrose, bishop of Milan, wrote:
  Sins are forgiven through the Holy Ghost. Certainly, but men lend him their ministry. . . . They forgive sin, not in their own name, but in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost (De Spiritu Sancto iii, 137).
  We know that the Bible when it was canonized COULD NOT CONTRADICT ANY OF THE TEACHINGS OF THE EARLY CHURCH. So to say that the CC misinterprets scripture to support their doctrine have it backwards. It is the Non-Catholics that misinterpret scripture because the CC’s interpretations of scripture go back to before there was any scripture to interpret. These were the teachings of the Church from its beginnings. Jesus gave HIS teachings to HIS Apostles. Those Apostles gave those teachings to their disciples, and those disciples passed those same things down the line generation after generation to the present. They have remained the same. Now we get these self-professed “learned people” who will read into scripture and twist it to suit their own doctrines or even “feelings” and accuse the Church of misinterpreting it. If an interpretations does not go back to what the Early Church taught, then YOUR interpretation is all wrong, simple as that…

These men you quote aren’t Scripture, are they? If what they say disagrees with the real ECF’s whom God used to pen His word, wouldn’t it stand to reason that they’re wrong?

 

[joshua_b]

These men you quote aren’t Scripture, are they? If what they say disagrees with the real ECF’s whom God used to pen His word, wouldn’t it stand to reason that they’re wrong?

And, if what they say is merely the record of them living out the teachings they received from the real ECF’s whom God used to pen His word, then it would stand to reason that this has been the belief and practice of Christianity as it was handed down from the Apostles without any question of validity for 1500 years.

 

[TobyLue]

These men you quote aren’t Scripture, are they? If what they say disagrees with the real ECF’s whom God used to pen His word, wouldn’t it stand to reason that they’re wrong?

Jesus founded a Church. He never commanded anybody to write down the Bible. AMOF He commended His Apostles to go out and TEACH not write down. He said He would protect HIS Church, The men He chose **taught **their disciples. Are you saying the disciples of the disciples we dumbos and didnt get it right? Did Jesus abandon His Church for 1500 years. These men were closer to the Apostles than you and I so what makes you think YOU have the correct interpretation. Again you fail to understand that SCRIPTURE HAD TO **AGREE **WITH WHAT THE CHURCH WAS TEACHING what Jesus comanded. . Who had the authority to claim that only four of the 30 gospels floating around and the many, many letters were true scripture? Show me that Jesus told somebody what the Canon of the Bible should be? The Holy Spirit has guided the Church since its inception. It stands to reason that the Holy Spirit would not let the Church preach and teach something different than what the It would inspire the Church which books to canonize some 400 years after Jesus ascended into heaven.
The Bible even teaches about the dangers of self-interpretation.

 

[promethius]

These men you quote aren’t Scripture, are they? If what they say disagrees with the real ECF’s whom God used to pen His word, wouldn’t it stand to reason that they’re wrong?

except that what they say DOES apparently square with what the scriptures tell us. Further, before the acceptance of a universal form of the bible, isolated churches HAD to rely on centralized teachings through ORAL tradition rather than written. While the above quoted ECFs are not infallible interpreters, here they have the weight of historical belief, scripture, and church endorsement on their side.

 

[Randy_Carson]

These men you quote aren’t Scripture, are they? If what they say disagrees with the real ECF’s whom God used to pen His word, wouldn’t it stand to reason that they’re wrong?

The real ECF’s???

Are you suggesting that we should pay not attention to what the earliest Christians wrote and that their writings offer no evidence of what the Church taught about the faith long before the Bible was formally canonized?

Are you unaware of the fact that at least one of the Apostolic Fathers, Clement, is mentioned in scripture (cf. Phil. 4:3) and that at least three others–Polycarp, Ignatius, and Irenaeus, were disciples of one or more of the original 12?

Are we to give greater credence to your (mis)interpretation of scripture than we are to that of those who were there at the beginning, sat at the feet of the Apostles, and whose blood was shed for the life of the Church?

Oh, and are we to wait much longer before you interact with the scriptures I provided in an earlier post which clearly demonstrate confession to a priest from the very pages of Holy Writ to which you are alluding?

 

[WindGirl]

Whatever you guys say. I’m not a skilled debator (not that that makes me wrong or that being a skilled debator makes someone right) and I’m limited as to what I can say here.

TobyLue:

These men were closer to the Apostles than you and I so what makes you think YOU have the correct interpretation. Again you fail to understand that SCRIPTURE HAD TO AGREE WITH WHAT THE CHURCH WAS TEACHING what Jesus comanded.

Basically you’re saying here that God has to agree with what the Catholic Church teaches. Do you realize how that sounds? I’ll leave it at that.

 

[gtaliente]

WindGirl, that is not what TobyLue is saying. God did not write the bible. God inspired the authors of it to put to paper what was being taught, but it was the Church Fathers who decided which of the authors were truly inspired and which were not that is why there can be no difference between what the Catholic church has taught for the past two thousand years and what is in the Bible, because it was the Catholic church who decided what the Bible was.

 

[gtaliente]

Sorry for the horrific run on sentence

 

[WindGirl]

WindGirl, that is not what TobyLue is saying. God did not write the bible. God inspired the authors of it to put to paper what was being taught, but it was the Church Fathers who decided which of the authors were truly inspired and which were not that is why there can be no difference between what the Catholic church has taught for the past two thousand years and what is in the Bible, because it was the Catholic church who decided what the Bible was.

If you say so.

 

[Philthy]

I believe Catholics have misinterpreted the Scripture they use to support this doctrine.

But confession to a priest started before Scripture was written. It was not derived from Scripture, it was passed on directly from the Apostles to their successors. Your point - at best - is irrelevent.

 

[Philthy]

These men you quote aren’t Scripture, are they?

Great question, WindGirl, how - exactly - would you know whether what they wrote was Scripture or not?

I won’t hold my breath waiting for an answer…

 

[Philthy]

Basically you’re saying here that God has to agree with what the Catholic Church teaches. Do you realize how that sounds? I’ll leave it at that.

“Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in Heaven; whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in Heaven”

Do you not trust God to keep His word? It is an incredible promise, isnt it…

 

[Philthy]

If you say so.

Its an historical fact…where did you think NT Scripture came from - stone tablets?

 

[TobyLue]

Whatever you guys say.

It’s not so much as to what we say WG, its what the Church has been saying for 2000 years. You know that Church that Scripture says we are to listen to. Whereas we listen to the Church, you listen to who,God? If so what guarantee do you have that you have listened correctly and have interpreted those thoughts correctly? You cant escape the fact that it was the CC that gave you that Bible. You also cant escape the fact the Scripture was derived from the teachings of the CC, not the other way around. The Church (and her teachings) came first. All you gotta do is look into the history of Christianity. You dont have to be a skilled debator, and I dont know what your trying to say that you are limited as to what you can say here. You are welcome to express you thoughts and give you opinions as long as you dont start anti-catholic rants, start attacking posters, etc. Just click on the forum rules
God Bless.

 

[DianJo]

Concerning Confession:
In the book of Genesis, Adam and Eve have eaten of the forbidden fruit and then hide and are ashamed because they are naked. They have been disobedient to God’s command. God comes to the garden and calls for Adam…He asks, (paraphrased) Adam, where are you?" Adam answers and says he is hiding because he is naked and ashamed. God asks again, “What have you done?”…

Now, ever wonder WHY God asks Adam all those questions? I did. I thought, why would God ask these things? He knows very well what Adam has done!

The answer is simple. It’s his first lesson for us. He wants us to confess our sins - out loud. He wants us to SAY our sins. He wants to teach us humility and that there are consquences for disobeying Him. God’s commands are for our own good and it’s not up us to decide that we know better or decide what “feels” good.

There is something about confessing your sins to someone. It teaches us humility - to come before a representative of Christ and name your sins out loud and then in return you hear the words, “I absolve you of your sins!” There is relief and joy and happiness and peace KNOWING FOR CERTAIN that God has forgiven my sins and that I can return to the Eucharist!!!

You also get “counseling” from the priest to help you understand and to help you not commit those sins again. It is wonderfully comforting knowing that if I mess up, I can return to the priest in the confessional, confess my sins with ture contrition and receive absolution from Christ!

I do, however, confess my venial sins to God directly when I find it necessay but I will more than likely mention those same venial sins in the confessional so I can know for sure that all my sins are forgiven. It was Jesus who gave that power to the Apostles and I will make use of it as often as necessary. It helps me stay on track.

Confessing directly to God without benefit of the sacrament is fine, I suppose, but how would someone know for sure that those sins are, in fact, forgiven? What counseling would someone receive to help in not committing those sons again? Half of my immediate family is non-Catholic and they tell me they confess their sins to God. Okay. I’ve never seen them make amends to anyone or do anything in penance for reparation so I can’t see how confessing directly to God makes any real difference in someone’s life. I don’t see a change in anything…

God gave us the normative way to confess sins: in the Sacrament of Reconciliation!

 

[fellowChristian]

Jesus left us His church and that church gave us the Gospel and not the other way around. In our salvation’s history we do find confession…

Confession has been around since Adam and Eve. God** knew **what sin Adam and Eve had committed yet He asked them so that they might confess.

Genesis 3:11 And He said, “Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree of which I commanded you not to eat?”

They did confess. And because of their sin death entered into the world. God killed animals to make for them clothes.Blood was spilled because of their sin.

Genesis 3:21 The LORD God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife, and clothed them.

Sin turns us away from God. Confession brings us back to Him. It** reconciles **us back to God’s love.
During the time of Moses you’ll find…

Leviticus 4:27 'Now if anyone of the common people sins unintentionally in doing any of the things which the LORD has commanded not to be done, and becomes guilty,
28if his sin which he has committed is made known to him, then he shall bring for his offering a goat, a female without defect, for his sin which he has committed.
29’He shall lay his hand on the head of the sin offering and slay the sin offering at the place of the burnt offering.
30’The priest shall take some of its blood with his finger and put it on the horns of the altar of burnt offering; and all the rest of its blood he shall pour out at the base of the** altar**.
31’Then he shall remove all its fat, just as the fat was removed from the sacrifice of peace offerings; and the **priest shall offer it up in smoke on the altar for a soothing aroma to the LORD. Thus the priest shall make atonement for him, and he will be forgiven. **

Because of our sins God gives us these instructions. Sin is in the blood. But God loves us and does not wish for us to die. He offers us a way to make peace with Him without dying.An animal must take our place and die for the sin which we had comitted.Under the Old Covenant , God used priests to minister forgiveness and atonement for the sins of others.

**New Testament **
John 20:21 So Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you; as the Father has sent Me, I also send you.”

As Christ was sent by the Father to forgive sins, so Christ sends the apostles and their successors to forgive sins.

John 20:22 And when He had said this,** He breathed on them** and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit.

The Lord “breathes” on the apostles, and then gives them the power to forgive and retain sins. The only other moment in Scripture where God breathes on man is in Gen. 2:7, when the Lord “breathes” divine life into man. When this happens, a significant transformation takes place.

John 20:23 “If you forgive the sins of any, their sins have been forgiven them; if **you **retain the sins of any, they have been retained.”

In order for the apostles to exercise this gift of forgiving sins, the penitents must **orally confess their sins **to them because the apostles are not mind readers. The text makes this very clear. The apostles were bishops.Bishops ordain priests.Priests are under bishops. They "minister" to the people.

Matthew 9:6 “But so that you may know that the **Son of Man **has authority on earth to forgive sins”–then He said to the paralytic, “Get up, pick up your bed and go home.” 7And he got up and went home. 8But when the crowds saw this, they were awestruck, and glorified God, who had given such authority to men.

Christ forgave sins as a man (not God) to convince us that the “Son of man” has authority to forgive sins on earth.

**Matthew 18:18 **"Truly I say to you, whatever **you **bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven.

The apostles are given authority to bind and loose. The authority to bind and loose includes administering and removing the temporal penalties due to sin. The Jews understood this since the birth of the Church. What the apostles/bishops forgive here on earth is forgiven in heaven and what the apostles/bishops don’t forgive on earth is not forgiven in heaven.

** 2 Corinthians 2:10** 10But one whom you forgive anything, I forgive also; for indeed what** I have forgiven, if I **have forgiven anything, I did it for your sakes in the presence of Christ,