SPLIT: Confession to priest not necessary

[fellowChristian]

Paul forgives in the presence of Christ (some translations refer to the presences of Christ as “in persona Christi”).

2Corinthians 2:10 King James Version 10 To whom ye forgive any thing, I forgive also: for if I forgave any thing, to whom I forgave it, for your sakes forgave** I it in the person of Christ**;

2 Corinthians 5:18 18Now all these things are** from God**, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the **ministry of reconciliation, **

This ministry of reconciliation refers to the sacrament of reconciliation, also called the sacrament of confession or penance. Now with the ministry you must have someone to “minister” it and that is what a bishop does.And just like in the book of Acts when the apostles/bishops ordain the 7 deacons to help in their ministry, bishops also ordain priests.

Epistle Of Saint James14 Is any man sick among you? Let him bring in the priests of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord.
15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick man: and the Lord shall raise him up: and if he be in sins, they shall be forgiven him. 16 Confess therefore your sins one to another: and pray one for another, that you may be saved. For the continual prayer of** a just man **availeth much.

Jesus paid the ultimate sacrifice for all of our sins. He is the Lamb lead to slaughter and the High Priest that made atonement for our sins. But because we continue to sin… God set up a ministry to heal us, to reconcil us back to Him. We take our sins to the priest who is acting in persona of Christ and humble ourselves by confessing to God through His ministers.

 

[Randy_Carson]

If you say so.

I’m beginning to think that WindGirl is very young.

 

[WindGirl]

I’m beginning to think that WindGirl is very young.

Wrong. I’m over 50.

 

[Tom]

I’ve heard you say that you believe the Catholic Church interprets Scripture incorrectly, exactly how is this incorrect.
In other words how do you interpret John 20?
Let’s put it in context. It’s Sunday morning, Jesus has been resurrected and all of the Apostles except for Thomas are present. There are no crowds, so when Jesus speaks He is ONLY speaking to His Apostles.
www.drbo.org:

John 20,19 Now when it was late that same day, the first of the week, and the doors were shut, where the disciples were gathered together, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in the midst, and said to them: Peace be to you. 20 And when he had said this, he showed them his hands and his side. The disciples therefore were glad, when they saw the Lord.

That is the context, correct?
Now the question:
John 20,21-23 is instruction given to the leaders (Apostles and their successors) of His Church, not to you and I, but to the leaders He chose. He breathed on them, and them alone, giving them power IN THE HOLY SPIRIT. And sends them out as the Father has sent Him, into the world.
www.drbo.org:

John 20,21 He said therefore to them again: Peace be to you. As the Father hath sent me, I also send you. 22 When he had said this, he breathed on them; and he said to them: Receive ye the Holy Ghost.

What is He sending them out to do? The answer is John 20,23:
www.drbo.org:

John 20,23 Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained.

1. How can believe your sins are forgiven directly by God, ignoring the power Jesus has given to Church leaders thru His Apostles to retain sin?
2. Do you think Jesus is kidding when He gives them the power to retain sin?
3. If the Apostles hold the power to retain sin doesn’t that mean they must hear the sins?
4. Can you confess directly to God when the Church which He established, and gave power to, tells you your sin is retained until you confess to a priest?
5. Where in Scripture, other than John 20, does Jesus say you can decide how to confess your sin and receive forgiveness?

 

[Tom]

I believe Catholics have misinterpreted the Scripture they use to support this doctrine.

You’re not alone.

Either of you care to give us the “correct” interpretation?
What if a priest refuses forgiveness, by using the power Jesus gave His Church leaders? Can I then go directly to God and bypass the power Jesus gave His Church? That seems like He didn’t mean exactly what He said. So what exactly did He mean when He gave the power to retain sin?

 

[WindGirl]

Either of you care to give us the “correct” interpretation?
What if a priest refuses forgiveness, by using the power Jesus gave His Church leaders? Can I then go directly to God and bypass the power Jesus gave His Church? That seems like He didn’t mean exactly what He said. So what exactly did He mean when He gave the power to retain sin?

This deals directly with the subject:

justforcatholics.org/forgiveness.htm

 

[HappyRevert]

I read that and found it interesting, but still don’t agree with it. Of course, we all agree we should daily ask for the forgiveness of our sins (Catholics do that formally at masses and during our own prayer time) and Catholics also know that Jesus’ blood washed away our sins as a free gift to humanity (we all agree on that). However, we diverge on purely pragmatic things.

1. The Christian church taught for 1500 years before Luther that you confess sins to a priest. This was based both on scripture and on the traditions passed down directly from the apostles to our early church fathers down through the ages. So as far as a practical matter, it should be perfectly correct and given from Jesus to the apostles. This is supported in scripture as well tradition.
2. I infer from the writings of this person on the web site, that they assume because Catholics go to reconciliation, we don’t address our issues to the people we have offended. That is completely untrue. We are called to do both.
3. It states “Secondly, the purpose of confession changed from reconciliation with the church to reconciliation with God through the ministry of the priest.” which is patently false. Reconciliation is a private matter and does not make us reconcile with the church, but with God. We take very seriously our relationship with God and realize that when we ask for forgiveness, many times we are asking for selfish reasons e.g. we don’t want to go to hell. versus we are purely repentant because we have offended and hurt our Lord God. Because of this we rely on the priest in persona Christi to get us the rest of the way there - we take the scripture seriously, that even with our broken natures, we are promised forgiveness (with imperfect contrition) through Jesus’ promises.
4. Penance is part of an external showing of our remorse and to help us increase in self-discipline. It doesn’t mean we expect it to forgive us - we are already forgiven. Catholics believe deeply in the connection between our bodies and souls. We do penance both as instructional and also to maintain that understanding of the reality of sin’s costs.

I appreciate you sharing your web site

 

[CWBetts]

I did n’t have to read very far beofre I found a mistake. Hate ti break the news to you, but Catholics ARE Christians. Catholicism is the Church founded by Christ, our worship is centerd on Christ we do all for Christ. Your anti-Catholic agenda is starting to show.

 

[Tom]

I’m sorry but in this article distorts Scripture and the teaching of the Church, and does not address the retention of sin! So it answers nothing! Have you even read it?

Rome teaches that divine forgiveness is granted through the priest’s absolution to those who confess their sins to a priest and make satisfaction for them.

Please show me the reference in Catholic teaching that the person must “make satisfaction to them (priest)” .
It then goes on to call Catholics non-Christians by stating “On the other hand, Christians believe…”

Christians confess their sins to God and when necessary to each other as well to maintain peace in the church.

Where does Scripture say this?

To support their position, Catholics appeal mainly to John 20:23: “If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”

Absolutely correct, thank you for stating the truth!

 

[Tom]

It is immediately apparent that the crucial aspects of the Catholic doctrine of penance are absent in this passage: there is no mention of priests, secret confession or satisfaction by penance.

How is “immediately apparent”? Nothing is missing. The passage is directed to the leadership of His Church, the Apostles, and this power is passed on for 2,000 years to the successors of the Apostles, the Bishops. It is only a recent invention that forgiveness of sins can be a personal confession between God and you! The power is granted from the Bishop to the priest. Confession in the first century was not private, it was public, understanding the forgiveness of His Church the Church allowed the confession to be private, not “secret” as is insinuated. To repent is to do penance, are you saying we need not repent? That is against Scripture!

 

[Tom]

Clearly, Jesus gave the disciples the power to forgive. “If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them…” The question we must ask is not whether Christ gave them power to forgive – Catholics and Evangelicals agree up to this point.

No, actually we don’t agree. He gave this power to His Apostles, not to all of His disciples, He had several thousand disciples! He chose the group, made sure they alone were there (locked doors) and breathed on them alone giving them, and them alone, the power. Now He does give them the power to pass this on by the keys and binding on earth. So far the leadership (Bishops) have only granted this power to ordained priests, NOT to all Christians!

We need to ask about the kind of power He gave them. Did He make them judges and invested in them power to pass judiciary sentence, granting or withholding divine pardon, as Rome teaches? Or did He make them His ambassadors to proclaim forgiveness through faith in His name, as Evangelicals believe?

Or did He give them both? A false dichotomy is set up by the author. To the author it must be one or the other, why? Where is this in Scripture?

 

[Lampo]

justforcatholics.org/forgiveness.htm

This is the anti-Catholic website by “Dr.” Joe Mizzi. He and John Martignoni debated on faith and works last year or the year before. Mr. Mizzi constantly puts out misinformation, misrepresentations, half-truths, hyperbole, misconceptions and lies about the Catholic faith even though he’s been corrected many, many times.

If one so desires, you can read the debate between him and Martignoni here.

Mr. Mizzi claims to be an ex-Catholic. If so, he is a very poor-catechized ex-Catholic. I have a suspicion he was once hurt or let down by someone in the Catholic Church and now has vengeance towards the Church. Usually someone that makes a concerted effort and puts forth a lot of time and energy to attack and punch holes in the Catholic faith has been hurt in someway by a Catholic. Another person that comes to mind of this ilk is Bill Maher, albeit a lot more extreme than Joe.

 

[WindGirl]

The church is all Christians, not just an elite few. No, it’s not a recent invention that I can confess my sins directly to God. 1 John 1: 9. The veil in the temple guarding the holy of holies has been rent from top to bottom. I have direct access to God through Christ. I don’t see at all that I need any human “middle man” between me and God.

By the way, what gives you authority to decide which parts of Scripture are aimed at whom?

I disagree that penance and repentance are the same thing. Repenence is to change your mind, be utterly sorry you’re doing something, and turn around in and go the other direction. Penance is trying to appease God for your sin when Jesus Christ has already done that.

 

[WindGirl]

This is the anti-Catholic website by “Dr.” Joe Mizzi. He and John Martignoni debated on faith and works last year or the year before. Mr. Mizzi constantly puts out misinformation, misrepresentations, half-truths, hyperbole, misconceptions and lies about the Catholic faith even though he’s been corrected many, many times.

If one so desires, you can read the debate between him and Martignoni here.

Mr. Mizzi claims to be an ex-Catholic. If so, he is a very poor-catechized ex-Catholic. I have a suspicion he was once hurt or let down by someone in the Catholic Church and now has vengeance towards the Church. Usually someone that makes a concerted effort and puts forth a lot of time and energy to attack and punch holes in the Catholic faith has been hurt in someway by a Catholic. Another person that comes to mind of this ilk is Bill Maher, albeit a lot more extreme than Joe.

Not everyone who has left the Catholic Church and believes that it’s wrong and tries to reach former Catholics has a vendetta toward the CC. Or was poor catechized. Or any other number of Catholic responses that I’ve heard already over and over. You’re not saying stuff that I haven’t heard before.

 

[Tom]

In other words, can a sinner receive forgiveness directly from God through faith, or must he avail himself of the Catholic priest’s mediation?

Simple answer isn’t it? Nowhere does Jesus say “just ask God”! He gave us His Church, we need His Church!

Judges or Messengers?

Why “or” can’t it be both? Why not? Why does man think they can control and limit God? God gives us power as He deems fit, not as we deem fit!

Well then, did Christ constitute His disciples judges or messengers of the gospel?

Both.

 

[Tom]

“The apostles and their successors carry out this ‘ministry of reconciliation,’ not only by announcing to men God’s forgiveness merited for us by Christ, and calling them to conversion and faith; but also by communicating to them the forgiveness of sins in Baptism, and reconciling them with God and with the Church through the power of the keys, received from Christ” (CCC, 981).
Such interpretation of the “power of the keys” is contrary to the historic understanding. For example, Augustine explains that it is on account of faith and repentance that a person is forgiven, and therefore received in the church:
“He has given, therefore, the keys to His Church, that whatsoever it should bind on earth might be bound in heaven, and whatsoever it should loose on earth might be, loosed in heaven; that is to say, that whosoever in the Church should not believe that his sins are remitted, they should not be remitted to him; but that whosoever should believe and should repent, and turn from his sins, should be saved by the same faith and repentance on the ground of which he is received into the bosom of the Church” (Augustine, On Christian Doctrine, Book 1, Chapter 18).

Augustine is absolutely correct in that “it is on account of faith and repentance that a person is forgiven, and therefore received in the church” Notice please he insists one be “received into the Church”! Here the author is using deception in attempting to say Augustine did not agree with reconciliation thru the priest, which is patently untrue!

 

[edjco]

Let me take a whack at it.
Windgirl, let me ask you this, did Jesus give the Apostles the power to forgive sin?

If so, where in Scripture did He remove this power from the Apostles or their successors?

 

[Lampo]

Not everyone who has left the Catholic Church and believes that it’s wrong and tries to reach former Catholics has a vendetta toward the CC.

Nowhere did I say “everyone.”

Or was poor catechized.

If he wasn’t poorly catechized, then either he is lying when he says the things he does about the Church or he did not understand what he was being taught.

Or any other number of Catholic responses that I’ve heard already over and over. You’re not saying stuff that I haven’t heard before.

The truth doesn’t change!

 

[WindGirl]

Simple answer isn’t it? Nowhere does Jesus say “just ask God”! He gave us His Church, we need His Church!
Why “or” can’t it be both? Why not? Why does man think they can control and limit God? God gives us power as He deems fit, not as we deem fit!
Both.

God didn’t give Christians a church, we ARE His church. Why do you speak constantly as if the church is some separate entity apart from Christians? What do you think Christians are anyway? We are the bride of Christ, the church. And after listening to Catholics for several years online, I come away with the impression that many of them believe that they can control and limit God. He has to agree with them or else.

 

[WindGirl]

Let me take a whack at it.
Windgirl, let me ask you this, did Jesus give the Apostles the power to forgive sin?

Yes, but the question remains what kind of power? Did they sit in little booths waiting to hear long lines of people’s confessions? Or did they go about preaching the gospel? Is the power what you say it is or is the power to preach the gospel and tell people if they beleive it their sins are forgiven and if they don’t, they aren’t. Even if it is the way you say, nothing I see says that that authority is granted to Catholic priests.

If so, where in Scripture did He remove this power from the Apostles or their successors?

Where does it say there are elite successors to be lords over the church. There were only twelve apostles and they’re gone. I don’t need a human priest. I have a Priest. His name is Christ. I’m forgiven and I’ve never been in a little booth with a Catholic priest. Nor will I ever by nor do I sense any need to be.