Split from "A question for some Protestants who try to proselytize Catholics": Are Catholic priests "Forbidden to Marry?"

[Dokimas]

I’m not sure how you’re missing the point entirely.

Really? Two questions:

1. Who decides what doctrines are more important than others, and what is their authority to do so;
2. Where is this concept (“some doctrines [are] MUCH more important than others”) found in Scripture?

If the Bible speaks to Christians about areas to deal with, it’s important but not essential to salvation.

If the Bible speaks to a non Christian about salvation it is essential. Anything and everthing about salvation is and are essential. The rest, while important for pleasing God, what pleases God most is that no one is lost, IMO as I read Scripture.

Which is indeed a sad situation. You see, when I came to the conclusion that I could no longer believe in what the ELCA taught, I left the ELCA. However, for those who are sincere, they do believe all that their church teaches. More importantly, they believe that their church has the **authority **to teach. Do you believe that of your church, Dokimas? If so, why?

I believe God gives the gift of teaching to men. However, many believe and sincerely too but are sincerely wrong. Belief DOES NOT make something true. God is the only one to be able to establish what is and what isn’t Truth.

I agree with you. However, the ELCA and the Episcopalian church both claim to be guided by the Holy Spirit. Both use Scripture to assert that abortion is acceptable. Here is ELCA’s position.

Believing doesn’t make anything true. At it’s best, belief falls in line with truth.

Katherine Ragsdale, the president of the Episcopal Divinity School in Cambridge, once said, “Abortion is a blessing.” (source) **This woman claims to be guided by the Holy Spirit. **

How can this be?

Do you pray for her soul?

Actua

lly, the Bible teaches directly that abortion is wrong (“Thou shalt not kill.”) But many Protestant denominations use Scripture to defend their believe that abortion is not wrong, and they also claim to be guided by the Holy Spirit.

That’s the one of the verses I had in mind. It didn’t mention abortion that’s why I said indirectly.

No confusion – they’re one and the same. If the Holy Spirit leads two different people to two different churches, He’s leading them two believing in two different doctrines as well.

God knows our frames and they are but dust. So, I disagree. God knows we won’t be perfect. He’s looking for hearts after Himself. He does the rest.

Well, I do. The Catholic Church. In terms of faith and morals, at any rate.

You have faith in the CC. My desire is to grow in my faith in Jesus. He’ll never let me down.

I do. His name is Jesus, and He established the Catholic Church to guide and teach the people.

I’m sorry I didn’t make that more clear. I agree the Jesus has it correct 100% of the time, unlike any and may I repeat, ANY church.

If your assertions are true, Jesus essentially abandoned his church into a maelstrom of confusion, with no possible way of knowing all Truth or who is teaching the Truth. Seems to me to be a pretty poor way of doing things.

No He didn’t. We can’t blame Jesus for our confusion.

However, Jesus promises that the Holy Spirit will guide us into all truth. Not SOME of the truth. ALL truth. John 16:13: “But when he comes, the Spirit of truth, he will guide you to all truth.” (emphasis mine)

There’s no problem with Jesus and the Holy Spirit’s leading, it’s with us following, including EVERY church. Non follow 100% correctly, IMO.

So if, as you say, there is NO church that has been guided into ALL truth, you’ve just called Jesus a liar.

Or you don’t understand what He meant. I’m hoping it’s your understanding that’s lacking not that I’m calling our Lord a liar.

So, obviously, if one person says the Holy Spirit is leading them to believe that abortion is right, and one person says that the Holy Spirit is leading them to believe that abortion is wrong, one of them is not being guided by the Holy Spirit. Do you agree?

I never said the Holy Spirit would lead anyone to disobey the Word of God. You’ve made this discussion very specific. I did say that the Holy Spirit leads people to different Christian churches that may or may not have some different understandings on non-essential teachings.

But what’s the point of going to church at all if, as you assert, none of them teach the whole truth?

Help, friendship, guidence, learning, protection, ‘two are better than one’; all kinds of reasons, not to mention, obedience.

As Christians, we aren’t supposed to wait for sinners to come to us. We’re supposed to go out into the world and evangelize to them.

Agreed. I’m not sure why you’ve placed this comment here. Again, I fully agree even though it’s been yrs since I’ve actively done so, to my shame.

 

[Dokimas]

continued…

Okay. Loving one’s neighbor would include not leading others into sin, correct? How is one to do that if various people have different definitions of what constitutes sin? If I believe abortion is not a sin, and I persuade my friend – who belongs to a church that teaches that abortion is a sin – am I leading her into sin? How am I to know?

I think I’ve answered this.

Okay, just thought I’d offer since it is against the rules for one member to “attack” another. I take it you no longer think I “attacked” you?

I haven’t rethought my statement. I believe I told you I have no reason to go to the moderators. I can go to you personally. I don’t care if you ‘attack’ it doesn’t bother me; I just thought you might want to know how you are coming accross.

 

[PRmerger]

I’m not sure how you’re missing the point entirely.

Really? Two questions:

1. Who decides what doctrines are more important than others, and what is their authority to do so;
2. Where is this concept (“some doctrines [are] MUCH more important than others”) found in Scripture?

Which is indeed a sad situation. You see, when I came to the conclusion that I could no longer believe in what the ELCA taught, I left the ELCA. However, for those who are sincere, they do believe all that their church teaches. More importantly, they believe that their church has the **authority **to teach. Do you believe that of your church, Dokimas? If so, why?

I agree with you. However, the ELCA and the Episcopalian church both claim to be guided by the Holy Spirit. Both use Scripture to assert that abortion is acceptable. Here is ELCA’s position.

Katherine Ragsdale, the president of the Episcopal Divinity School in Cambridge, once said, “Abortion is a blessing.” (source) **This woman claims to be guided by the Holy Spirit. **

How can this be?

Actually, the Bible teaches directly that abortion is wrong (“Thou shalt not kill.”) But many Protestant denominations use Scripture to defend their believe that abortion is not wrong, and they also claim to be guided by the Holy Spirit.

No confusion – they’re one and the same. If the Holy Spirit leads two different people to two different churches, He’s leading them two believing in two different doctrines as well.

Well, I do. The Catholic Church. In terms of faith and morals, at any rate.

I do. His name is Jesus, and He established the Catholic Church to guide and teach the people.

If your assertions are true, Jesus essentially abandoned his church into a maelstrom of confusion, with no possible way of knowing all Truth or who is teaching the Truth. Seems to me to be a pretty poor way of doing things.

However, Jesus promises that the Holy Spirit will guide us into all truth. Not SOME of the truth. ALL truth. John 16:13: “But when he comes, the Spirit of truth, he will guide you to all truth.” (emphasis mine)

So if, as you say, there is NO church that has been guided into ALL truth, you’ve just called Jesus a liar.

So, obviously, if one person says the Holy Spirit is leading them to believe that abortion is right, and one person says that the Holy Spirit is leading them to believe that abortion is wrong, one of them is not being guided by the Holy Spirit. Do you agree?

But what’s the point of going to church at all if, as you assert, none of them teach the whole truth?

As Christians, we aren’t supposed to wait for sinners to come to us. We’re supposed to go out into the world and evangelize to them.

Okay. Loving one’s neighbor would include not leading others into sin, correct? How is one to do that if various people have different definitions of what constitutes sin? If I believe abortion is not a sin, and I persuade my friend – who belongs to a church that teaches that abortion is a sin – am I leading her into sin? How am I to know?

Okay, just thought I’d offer since it is against the rules for one member to “attack” another. I take it you no longer think I “attacked” you?

Awesome, comprehensive, insightful and correct post, JoAnna! :bowdown::clapping:

 

[KathleenGee]

I have seen people on CAF say similar remarks to the same posters…

 

[Dokimas]

I have seen people on CAF say similar remarks to the same posters…

If this is to me, could you please help me understand the message? If not, then it’s most likely none of my business.

 

[jmcrae]

You’re trying to compare apples and oranges. Killing the innocent is sin. Being lead by the Holy Spirit in a different direction is not sin. It would be sin to disobey the leading of God. You can be lead to Africa and I could be lead to stay where I am. You could be lead to the CC and I could be lead to another Christian church.

There is a huge difference between being led to another location, and being led to another set of beliefs about God.

Not all Protestants agree that abortion entails the killing of an innocent person. They don’t see the fetus as a person at all and therefore they permit abortion, and indeed, encourage it, for unmarried women.

Are you saying I’m sinning if I go to a Christian church that is not catholic???

Only the Catholic Church is going to teach you what is true about Jesus and what is true about sin.

In any given non-Catholic church, you get a mixture of things that are true (Jesus is Lord), and things that are false ( it’s okay to get an abortion if you had not intended to become pregnant).

 

[Dokimas]

There is a huge difference between being led to another location, and being led to another set of beliefs about God.

Not all Protestants agree that abortion entails the killing of an innocent person. They don’t see the fetus as a person at all and therefore they permit abortion, and indeed, encourage it, for unmarried women.

Only the Catholic Church is going to teach you what is true about Jesus and what is true about sin.

In any given non-Catholic church, you get a mixture of things that are true (Jesus is Lord), and things that are false ( it’s okay to get an abortion if you had not intended to become pregnant).

You are NOT going to sway me with an argument that includes churches that believe abortion is okay because I would not go to one of those churches unless it were to evangelize. So, throw out all those churches and make you case.

 

[jmcrae]

You are NOT going to sway me with an argument that includes churches that believe abortion is okay because I would not go to one of those churches unless it were to evangelize.

And yet, these are among the various churches to which people claim to be drawn by the Holy Spirit.

So, throw out all those churches and make you case.

Okay - the Catholic Church provides us with the Sacraments of Jesus Christ, which purify us and draw us closer to God.

Some Evangelical churches deny the very existence of the Sacraments, and consider it sinful to participate in them.

Only one of these two can be correct - and only one of these two originated at the time of Christ - the other came into being during the early part of the 20th century.

 

[PRmerger]

And yet, these are among the various churches to which people claim to be drawn by the Holy Spirit.

Yes, and I find the example of Katherine Ragsdale, provided by JoAnna, to be particularly obscene.

[SIGN1]
She claims to be guided by the Holy Spirit and says that abortion is a blessing.[/SIGN1]

:bigyikes:

Katherine Ragsdale, the president of the Episcopal Divinity School in Cambridge, once said, “Abortion is a blessing.” (source) This woman claims to be guided by the Holy Spirit.

 

[Dokimas]

Yes, and I find the example of Katherine Ragsdale, provided by JoAnna, to be particularly obscene.

[SIGN1]
She claims to be guided by the Holy Spirit and says that abortion is a blessing.[/SIGN1]

:bigyikes:

If it’s true, I shudder at the deception in the woman’s life.

 

[guanophore]

I’m not sure how you’re missing that the Holy Spirit does lead to churches that are Christian but not catholic.

Jesus only founded One Church. He made the promise that He would lead the Church He founded into all Truth. Since all the Christian ecclesial communities were started by men, and have separated themselves from the One Church founded by Christ, they have also lost connection to the promise that He made.

If I understand you, I’d agree. However, there are some doctrines MUCH more important than others.

We are in agreement on this point. However, Scripture does not delineate what these are. Catholics distinguish them by what we received from the Apostles. Those that are separated from the Apostolic Succession attempt to extrapolate it from the pages of the Book. Different groups extrapolate differently, which is why there is such a fracturing in the Body.

Also, not all people believe all things their churches teach.

This may be more true of Catholics than any other group!

The CC has many members that disagree with some other the teaching of the church.

The difference is that the Teaching is One.

I would most likely NOT want to go to a church that teaches abortion is okay. I could see the Holy Spirit sending someone as His witness into a church like that to help sinners see the salvation that is only in Jesus. Abortion is against Jesus.

Yes, the Catholic Church teaches that Jesus sends His Spirit into these ecclesial communities to draw people to HImself.

I’m quite sure the Bible teaches indirectly that abortion is WRONG.

It is very Catholic of you to say this, but you know quite well that other people think “the bible teaches” differently.

The bottom like is that the bible cannot, and does not “teach”. Teaching is an activity of a person, not a book.

You seem to be confusing the Holy Spirit leading to a person to a different church than you and the Holy Spirit leading two people to different doctrines.

No, no confusion. The HS does not lead people away from one another in faith. He always draws into unity and oneness. To the extent that a person “feels led” away from the Unity Jesus has established, it is not the HS leading.

I know of NO church that has ALL the correct teaching.

We all pray for you Doki, that one day, you will come to know the Catholic Church in truth, instead of all the erroneous ideas you have of her. On that day, you will know that there is One Church that has the correct teaching.

I know of NO person, most surely including myself, that has ALL correct understandings.

Are you under some misapprehension that Catholics believe otherwise?

I think I’ve answered this above. The Holy Spirit, as you know, does not lead to sin.

All disobedience is sin.

You're talking about geographical location. I'm talking about doctrine. In the case of Christian churches, different does mean contradictory, otherwise there would be unity.

I think you are contradicting your own self in this statement.

God lead Paul to the Jewish places of worship.  The taught wrong things about Jesus.  Paul had a mission.  He didn't believe their wrong teachings.  He tried to share the Gospel of Jesus with them.  You must go where the sinners are to help them see the love of Jesus.  Most of the time they won't come to our churches out of the blue.

Is that why you are at CAF? Do you think we are teaching “wrong things about Jesus”?

I'm saying to truly love Jesus you must love those in the Body of Christ and all sinners ("love your neighbor as yourself").

It is very Catholic of you to say this.

 

[guanophore]

IMO, it’s misplaced authority.

Do you think Jesus selected poor candidates to give His authority?

Do you think they chose poor successors?

Or, where in the line of authority did it get “misplaced”?

 

[wanner47]

If the Bible speaks to Christians about areas to deal with, it’s important but not essential to salvation.

Where is this found in the Bible?

If the Bible speaks to a non Christian about salvation it is essential. Anything and everthing about salvation is and are essential. The rest, while important for pleasing God, what pleases God most is that no one is lost, IMO as I read Scripture.

So as long as I’m saved, I can go out and commit any sin I want? Adultery, abortion, idolatry, and none of it matters as long as I’m saved?

Moreover, what about denominations that have conflicting doctrines about salvation? For example, Baptists teach once saved always saved. Catholics teach saved by grace, not by faith alone, but with faith working through love. How do we know who is right about salvation?

I believe God gives the gift of teaching to men. However, many believe and sincerely too but are sincerely wrong. Belief DOES NOT make something true.

I am so glad you realize this. Now please, apply it to yourself!

God is the only one to be able to establish what is and what isn’t Truth.

I agree. The question is, how are we to know what God has established as Truth? Wouldn’t it be nice if He’d, maybe, set up a Church or something to teach us that Truth? Oh, wait… He did!

Believing doesn’t make anything true. At it’s best, belief falls in line with truth.

Once again, apply this to your own beliefs.

Do you pray for her soul?

Yes, but as you implied above, if she thinks abortion is a blessing it doesn’t matter as long as she’s saved.

That’s the one of the verses I had in mind. It didn’t mention abortion that’s why I said indirectly.

Abortion = killing a human being, so it seems pretty direct to me.

God knows our frames and they are but dust. So, I disagree. God knows we won’t be perfect. He’s looking for hearts after Himself. He does the rest.

See my questions regarding conflicting salvation doctrines above.

You have faith in the CC. My desire is to grow in my faith in Jesus. He’ll never let me down.

I have faith in the Catholic Church only because it was established by Jesus. It is nothing without Him. That’s what you don’t seem to understand. If you have so much faith in Jesus, why not belong to the Church that He established?

I’m sorry I didn’t make that more clear. I agree the Jesus has it correct 100% of the time, unlike any and may I repeat, ANY church.

Not even the one that He established? Not even the one He built upon Peter and promised that the gates of Hell would not prevail against? O ye of little faith.

No He didn’t. We can’t blame Jesus for our confusion.

We can blame the Holy Spirit, according to you.

There’s no problem with Jesus and the Holy Spirit’s leading, it’s with us following, including EVERY church. Non follow 100% correctly, IMO.

So Jesus lied when he said the Spirit would lead us into all truth (John 16:13)?

Or you don’t understand what He meant. I’m hoping it’s your understanding that’s lacking not that I’m calling our Lord a liar.

What do you think Jesus meant when He said the Holy Spirit would guide us into all truth?

I never said the Holy Spirit would lead anyone to disobey the Word of God. You’ve made this discussion very specific. I did say that the Holy Spirit leads people to different Christian churches that may or may not have some different understandings on non-essential teachings.

But there are differences on essential teachings as well, as I’ve explained above.

Also, where in the Bible does it say that there are “non-essential” teachings?

We see Paul advising Timothy about women’s clothing and jewelry (1 Timothy 2:9-10). Why would Paul talk about matters non-essential to salvation if they’re not important?

Help, friendship, guidence, learning, protection, ‘two are better than one’; all kinds of reasons, not to mention, obedience.

I didn’t see worship in your list. Funny, I thought that was the primary purpose of attending church.

Agreed. I’m not sure why you’ve placed this comment here. Again, I fully agree even though it’s been yrs since I’ve actively done so, to my shame.

You said that churches needed to be welcoming to sinners in case they came in. My reply was that we shouldn’t wait for them to come in; we should be out evangelizing them so they don’t have to come to us.

 

[guanophore]

If it’s true, I shudder at the deception in the woman’s life.

This will help you understand why we Catholics shudder over what we perceive as deception resulting in the embracing of a great many doctrinal departures from the Apostolic faith.

 

[PRmerger]

Yes, but as you implied above, if she thinks abortion is a blessing it doesn’t matter as long as she’s saved.

Therein lies the truly diabolical nature of the OSAS paradigm. It is this belief that once someone has professed Jesus as their Lord, it doesn’t really matter what one considers a “blessing” or a sin, that was hatched in the gates of the netherworld, IMHO.

 

[Dokimas]

Jesus only founded One Church. He made the promise that He would lead the Church He founded into all Truth. Since all the Christian ecclesial communities were started by men, and have separated themselves from the One Church founded by Christ, they have also lost connection to the promise that He made.

Thanks for your opinion.

We are in agreement on this point. However, Scripture does not delineate what these are. Catholics distinguish them by what we received from the Apostles. Those that are separated from the Apostolic Succession attempt to extrapolate it from the pages of the Book. Different groups extrapolate differently, which is why there is such a fracturing in the Body.

I may be wrong but I think PR had a good list.

This may be more true of Catholics than any other group!

I have no opinion.

The difference is that the Teaching is One.

That doesn’t mean the teaching is alway correct.

Yes, the Catholic Church teaches that Jesus sends His Spirit into these ecclesial communities to draw people to HImself.

Does He use people?

It is very Catholic of you to say this, but you know quite well that other people think “the bible teaches” differently.

But you don’t care what others teach. So what’s you point?

The bottom like is that the bible cannot, and does not “teach”. Teaching is an activity of a person, not a book.

Kind of picky about terms aren’t you?

No, no confusion. The HS does not lead people away from one another in faith. He always draws into unity and oneness. To the extent that a person “feels led” away from the Unity Jesus has established, it is not the HS leading.

A Christian has the faith you speak of whether or not they go to a CC or a non-catholic church. We agree the Holy Spirit does not lead people away from people of faith. He gathers them, some in one church and some in another. He tries to draw others out of non-Christian churches.

We all pray for you Doki, that one day, you will come to know the Catholic Church in truth, instead of all the erroneous ideas you have of her. On that day, you will know that there is One Church that has the correct teaching.

If, as you say, the Bible can’t teach, teaching is an activity of a person, how can you say the church teaches. Seems to say the CC is without sin you separate the CC from people, thus how can the CC teach?

Are you under some misapprehension that Catholics believe otherwise?

Nope. I’m disappointed you felt you had to question me on this!!!

All disobedience is sin.

However, you and I aren’t God so we don’t always know what is disobedience verses what is the leading of the Holy Spirit. Much is clear; other things are between God and the person.

I think you are contradicting your own self in this statement.

Maybe so. I don’t rememger what my point was.

Is that why you are at CAF? Do you think we are teaching “wrong things about Jesus”?

Looks like you’re back accusing me of evangelizing.

It is very Catholic of you to say this.

So which is it: I’m very catholic (2xs you told me this) or am I here to help you with wrong teachings (I think you are back to the prostelizing accusation)?

 

[Dokimas]

Do you think Jesus selected poor candidates to give His authority?

Nope. Jesus isn’t the problem.

Do you think they chose poor successors?

I doubt the first apostles made too many mistakes. However, only God really knows.

Or, where in the line of authority did it get “misplaced”?

Are there any popes that did poorly? If, in the honesty of your heart you say yes to at least one, you have answered your own question. You, most likely, have a good understanding of the CC history.

 

[Dokimas]

Where is this found in the Bible?

Your church teaches it if they accept that there are non-catholic Christians.

So as long as I’m saved, I can go out and commit any sin I want? Adultery, abortion, idolatry, and none of it matters as long as I’m saved?

I get tempted to ignore foolish statements like these. There’s not one thing I’ve ever said on CAF or in the post you are quoting that anyone like you could or should think I think sin is okay. The only thing I can think of is that you are motivated to read into what I say wrong things because you want me to be wrong.

Moreover, what about denominations that have conflicting doctrines about salvation? For example, Baptists teach once saved always saved. Catholics teach saved by grace, not by faith alone, but with faith working through love. How do we know who is right about salvation?

Once saved always saved verses the oposite are NOT essentials. It’s up to God. BTW, baptist I know agree with your definition of ‘salvation’. I agree too.

I am so glad you realize this. Now please, apply it to yourself!

Good advice for both you and me.

I agree. The question is, how are we to know what God has established as Truth? Wouldn’t it be nice if He’d, maybe, set up a Church or something to teach us that Truth? Oh, wait… He did!

Nice use of sarcasm.

Once again, apply this to your own beliefs.

I guess you don’t read my posts too often. I’ve said I’m sure I don’t understand all, or maybe even many, things correctly. So, you’re speaking to yourself, not to me. I already am aware of this for myself. I doubt you are aware of this for you and your church.

Yes, but as you implied above, if she thinks abortion is a blessing it doesn’t matter as long as she’s saved.

You’re deceiving yourself. I’ve implied NO such thing.

Abortion = killing a human being, so it seems pretty direct to me.

Sure. Now can we move on?

See my questions regarding conflicting salvation doctrines above.

My answer stays the same.

I have faith in the Catholic Church only because it was established by Jesus. It is nothing without Him. That’s what you don’t seem to understand. If you have so much faith in Jesus, why not belong to the Church that He established?

Good question.

Not even the one that He established? Not even the one He built upon Peter and promised that the gates of Hell would not prevail against? O ye of little faith.

Thanks for your opinion. Remember your opinion could be incorrect.

We can blame the Holy Spirit, according to you.

Deceiving yourself again. I said NO such thing. Does it make it easier coming against me to believe untruths about what I’m saying?

So Jesus lied when he said the Spirit would lead us into all truth (John 16:13)?

Another silly question.

What do you think Jesus meant when He said the Holy Spirit would guide us into all truth?

Just what it says. What it DOES NOT say is that we’ll always follow correctly.

But there are differences on essential teachings as well, as I’ve explained above.

Like what?

Also, where in the Bible does it say that there are “non-essential” teachings?

See one of PR’s posts some where on this board.

We see Paul advising Timothy about women’s clothing and jewelry (1 Timothy 2:9-10). Why would Paul talk about matters non-essential to salvation if they’re not important?

Do you obey your husband as Peter and Paul told you to? Do you cover your head as Paul told you to? Do you cover yourself modestly even when going swimming?

I didn’t see worship in your list. Funny, I thought that was the primary purpose of attending church.

It’s called a ‘Worship Service’. They are all worship. BTW, it wasn’t an exhaustive list, silly person.

You said that churches needed to be welcoming to sinners in case they came in. My reply was that we shouldn’t wait for them to come in; we should be out evangelizing them so they don’t have to come to us.

Agreed

 

[Dokimas]

Therein lies the truly diabolical nature of the OSAS paradigm. It is this belief that once someone has professed Jesus as their Lord, it doesn’t really matter what one considers a “blessing” or a sin, that was hatched in the gates of the netherworld, IMHO.

Have you been following this conversation?

Do I believe OSAS?

 

[PRmerger]

I may be wrong but I think PR had a good list.

Yes, of course I have a “good list”! It’s a “list of essentials” called the “hierarchy of truths” professed by the CC.

However, if one goes by the Bible Alone, then one cannot determine what’s an essential and what’s a non-essential doctrine. One needs the CC’s authority for this.

If you are referring to this posting, where I cited different Protestant poster’s opinions of what’s essential, then you missed my point. This is not **a **list of essentials, but many lists of *different *essentials…demonstrating that Protestants cannot agree, from the Bible alone, what is an essential. Q.E.D.