Split from "A question for some Protestants who try to proselytize Catholics": Are Catholic priests "Forbidden to Marry?"

[guanophore]

That is one interpretation, but is it the correct interpretation is it what God has said?

I think we are in agreement that not everything Jesus said and did is written.

We also look at His actions, which sometimes speak louder than words.

Catholic doctrine, unlike the doctrines of our separated brethren, do not come from the interpretation of scripture. Our doctrines come from Christ, through the Apostles. We see them reflected in Scripture because the NT was written by those who held Catholic doctrine.

You selected the wrong verse in I Corinthians and then imposed a mandate that Scripture does not have, which is the imposition of not being married to serve as an Overseer or Elder.

It sounds like you also deny the authority that Christ gave to the Apostles to bind and loose (legislate) for the Church.

**

Perhaps you would like to toss aside I & 2 timothy and Titus, where the qualifications and the instructions are given. **

No. these books were written by Catholics, for Catholics, about Catholics.

Your desire to separate them from the Catholic Church, and interpret them in isolation from the Apostolic Teaching that produced them will not change those facts.

Pat_De:

You see how tradition of men eventually nullifies the truth of God.

Certainly it is possible for this to happen, but it does not necessarily. There is nothing inherintly wrong with human tradition. It can be congruent with the Word of God.

However, it seems that you are not making a distinction between Sacred Tradition, and human tradition. Sacred Tradition comes from God, and is immutable, like the Scripture.

But as a person who would choose to join the Catholic priesthood; he must follow the rules given to him or he will not be selected; that is the Church's mandate and if you look into the history of it you will find when this change occurred and the reasons for such a change and it has nothing to do with the Bible for its mandates on qualifications are quite clear.

Indeed, there is quite a history and many reasons for this discipline, but no Catholic disciplines are implemented that “have nothing to do with the Bible”. The Church is not allowed/able/authorized to impose any disciplines that are not consistent with Scripture.

Can you please provide the verses on Holy Orders and Confirmation as presented in your church since the burden is on you to provide evidence of such a claim that does not exist in the Bible.

Before we start on that, can you show the chapter and verse where everything the Church does must come from the Bible?

We are able to answer your challenge, but I want it to be clear at the outset that you are basing your demand on an extrabiblical tradition of men.

I believe this negates the additional claim you made that the Church basis its authority on Christ; since it was the Holy Spirit who gave the Christian pastor the standards and qualification of being a preacher-teacher and it does not gel with your tradition.

Clearly your perception of it does not gel.

Getting back to the topic; marriage or no marriage does not necessarily change the person's focus on Christ as we have witnessed throughout history.

not necessarily. There are certainly many very holy and faithful married men with families. However, the Church prefers to choose from among those whose interests are not divided,

 

[guanophore]

I would love to take that apart piece by piece or provide you with a “link” to show the contradictions, but that would be on the borderline of violating forum rules according to my understanding of them. Perhaps you would like to send me an email and I will be happy to show you the errors.

Pat, Catholic Answers Forum is here to provide Catholic answers. It seems increasingly clear from reading your posts that you did not come here for Catholic answers, but to criticize and disparage our faith.

We are here to discuss these kinds of differences, especially here in the non-C area, which specializes on differences. They can also be discussed over in Apologetics, where we love to be shown our errors.

Would you like to open an new thread for this? I can do it, if you prefer.

 

[guanophore]

Thanx

I choose to try the best I can to live as a child.

Mt 18:4 "Therefore whoever humbles himself as this little child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

I have a long way to go.

Don’t we all!

This thread is a good chance for you to practice, then, Doki. A humble child is open to instruction, and will absorb information, even if it does not necessarilty fit in with his pre-conceptions. On this thread it has been repeatedly explained to you that the Church has the authority to create disciplines for those in her service. You deny that authority. You deny it over yourself, and even deny that we can have it ourselves! This does not seem consistent with the receptive humble child attitude.

 

[Pat_De]

Hi, Pat De,

You are soooooooooooooooooooooo right…

“There is no use in arguing…” but, it has nothing to do with “the truth”! How anyone can go so far off course and then claim Melchizedek did not apply to what Christ, the Sacrifice of the Mass and the ordination of priests today.

The arguments you have presented are truly convoluted and simply appear to obscure the real foreshadowing that the OT provides for the NT. The issue is: Christ gave Peter the Keys and the authority to bind and lose (Matt 16) and that Christ told His listerners (John 6) that He would give them His Body to eat - and they must eat His Body to live. Matthew, Mark and Luke relate the Last Supper as the When and How this great mystery was accomplished. Christ commissioned His Apostles to “Do this in rememberance of Me”. The priesthood, foreshodowed in the OT, is brought to fruition in the NT with Christ being physically present on the altar after the Consecration. This is the central belief of the Catholic Church, given to us by Christ, Who also said that the Holy Spirit would protect the Chruch for error.

Ever since the Jews walked away from Christ (John 6) for coming up with this “…hard saying…” people have been refusing to believe God. There really is nothing new in this.

You are perfectly free to remain a ‘former’… but, ultimately, everyone gets to see what happens at the White Throne.

God bless

This is a typical response for those do not put much time or energy into the study and understanding of the Word of God. That is an interesting interpretation of the Word of God above; one I do not believe I have ever heard.

Again the burden of proof lies with your claim that the Scripture teaches these doctrines. For example on John 6; Jesus gave a very clear and concise explanation of what eating his flesh meant and what it did not mean, but you clearly overlook this and Paul clearly teaches the doctrine concerning the Lord’s supper and transubstantiation is what you are teaching; yet you will find no such thing in all of Scripture concerning the Lord’s Supper.

The white throne is only for the damned, not for the redeemed another error on your part. I will be at the Bema seat judgment receiving my crown of glory from the Lord Himself.

Here is an article for your education on the differences if you should chose to learn about the differences differences between the Great White Throne and the Bema Seat judgment.

The irony in your response to John 6 concerning the Jews who walked away who took Him literally as to eating His flesh are the ones that did not understand His teaching or did understand and could not accept what He was claiming, which is more likely the case based on the statement Jesus made concerning this being a “hard saying”, an indication that it was commonly used metaphor, to accept… Yet they should have since the eating of something in that context was another technique used by Jewish leaders to make a spiritual point; just as loosing and binding was another rabbinical technique, which by the way applies to all Christians.

I hope you find blessing in this post as what i have said is what is written and is true and especially blessed by the understanding of the two seats of judgment.

God bless you!

 

[wanner47]

This is a typical response for those do not put much time or energy into the study and understanding of the Word of God.

That’s a pretty arrogant, not to mention ignorant, claim to make, Pat. The Catholic Church has spent a collective 2,000 years studying and understanding the Word of God. How many years have you put in?

Also, regarding your link – I went to the “About” page and found this:

We are followers of Jesus. Like Jesus, we reject many of the issues found in “organized religion” (man-made attempts to reach God through rules and rituals). We consider the personal pursuit of God as paramount in each of our personal life journeys. We also believe that ultimate, saving Truth is found only through God’s Son, Jesus Christ. (Click here to read our Faith Statement.) We believe that the authoritative and primary source of that truth is the Bible as illuminated by the power of the Holy Spirit. Further, we believe that spiritual growth occurs in combination with being in God’s Word consistently and dealing with the things we suffer in this fallen world while being in fellowship with a local body of believers where there is an atmosphere of grace, love, and accountability.

Regarding the bolded (emphasis mine), I can’t seem to find this authority stated in the Bible. I can’t say I really trust the Biblical interpretations of those who claim an authority that doesn’t exist. They just don’t seem credible.

 

[PRmerger]

If we follow God’s rules for sex, what’t the chance of STD? About 0. Not following God’s rules, all bets are off!!!

Why then are you providing an example of someone who doesn’t follow God’s rules here: “the spouses that are murdered by someone to whom sex is denied”?

 

[Pat_De]

How would I know that these ex-Catholics don’t know what the IC is, or where Scripture is in the Mass?

'cause I love to ask those questions, and they answer incorrectly.

BTW, Pat, where is Scripture in the Mass?

It is the constant teaching of the Apostles, handed down to us through Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition.

If one wants to know what the CC believes, it is very easy to look it up.

However, if one wants to know what Protestantism teaches, we have about 33,000 different variations of what Protestantism professes.

The reason you love to ask such a question is pride and a lack of charity toward others which is a lack of charity toward god and an act of total disobedience, which God does not care much for; he seeks out the humble.

The better question would be where is the Mass in Scripture? Since Scripture was a gift of God to man concerning Himself and His plan of redemption and how the Christian’s are to live as slaves of Christ.

Why one would want to know what anyone teaches other than what God teaches is beyond my understanding, but this was not always the case; I just did not realize it at the time. You make a very good point that the church has lost its depth in understanding the word of God and thus the result is a lukewarm worship of God; if it can be called that. The preachers primary responsibility is to go down deep into the understanding and knowledge of the Word as revealed in Scripture and exposit this to the flocks entrusted by god in order to lift that flock to a high understanding of and love of God and thus equipping them for every good work in Christ to display His glory through their lives. We rarely see this; most people are too much into the material nature of this world, something even the most obedient Christians are caught up in, but it is the primary failure of pastors and it is a result of trying to preach to the culture rather than just allowing the Word of God do its work via the Gospel and the holy Spirit. Most preachers are lazy and do not put the necessary time or give the necessary attention in the study of the word in order to build up and equip their people that are leading.

The greatest preachers and the ones that God has used throughout the church age have always been the most diligent in studying and delivering the Word of God and God has used these great men to move mountains of souls, men such as Luther and Calvin and Spurgeon and Edwards.

There are still a few good and faithful preachers out there but they are getting harder and harder to find.

 

[guanophore]

This is a typical response for those do not put much time or energy into the study and understanding of the Word of God. That is an interesting interpretation of the Word of God above; one I do not believe I have ever heard.

Despite your disparaging attitude toward us, Pat, it is possible that you might learn something here!

Again the burden of proof lies with your claim that the Scripture teaches these doctrines.

No, Pat, it does not . Catholics know that Scriptures don’t “teach”. Teaching is an activity that can only be accomplished by persons, not books, however Holy. Jesus gave the duty of Teaching to the Apostles, and they to their successors. Teachers are called by Him, and authorized by the church. Scripture is profitable to them in this activity. Their duty is to equip the saints for the work of the ministry.

For example on John 6; Jesus gave a very clear and concise explanation of what eating his flesh meant and what it did not mean, but you clearly overlook this and Paul clearly teaches the doctrine concerning the Lord’s supper and transubstantiation is what you are teaching; yet you will find no such thing in all of Scripture concerning the Lord’s Supper.

Transubstantiation is a philosophical rendering of the concept of the Real Presence used in the Latin Rite. You are correct, we will not find this word in Scripture, just like we will not find the word Trinity, or the list of books that belong in the Bible. Catholics are not dependent upon words found in scripture for doctrine. Our doctrine comes from Jesus, and was whole and entire before a word of the NT was ever written.

The white throne is only for the damned, not for the redeemed another error on your part. I will be at the Bema seat judgment receiving my crown of glory from the Lord Himself.

You certainly seem very sure of yourself, Pat.

The irony in your response to John 6 concerning the Jews who walked away who took Him literally as to eating His flesh are the ones that did not understand His teaching or did understand and could not accept what He was claiming, which is more likely the case based on the statement Jesus made concerning this being a “hard saying”, an indication that it was commonly used metaphor, to accept…

Indeed, there was a common metaphoric use of the term “to eat”. It was used to describe sarcasm and detractory remarks about a person. So, if you think He was talking metaphorically, then the context of the culture indicates it should be translated “unless you make sarcastic and disparaging remarks about me, you will have no life in you”.How much sense does that make?

Yet they should have since the eating of something in that context was another technique used by Jewish leaders to make a spiritual point; just as loosing and binding was another rabbinical technique, which by the way applies to all Christians.

It seems that you have so many hostilities toward the Catholic faith that is is difficult for you to focus. We are happy to respond to them all, as that is why we are here, but let’s try to stay on the topic of the thread, shall we?

I hope you find blessing in this post as what i have said is what is written and is true…

Actually, I find your tone derogatory and insulting.

I do, however, find myself blessed when I am insulted for the Teachings of Christ, which have been preserved infallibly in the Church by the HS.

 

[PRmerger]

The reason you love to ask such a question is pride and a lack of charity toward others which is a lack of charity toward god and an act of total disobedience, which God does not care much for; he seeks out the humble.

Since you have no idea who I am and can not see into my heart, Pat, it is quite puzzling that you can declare me to be prideful.

So, can you answer the question, “Where is Scripture in the Mass”? That is, what parts of the Mass that we and the priest recite come from Scripture?

I’ll give you a freebie: you know at least the “Our Father” is from Scripture, right?

 

[Pat_De]

You are absolutely free to attempt to take “apart piece by piece” the contradictions in that article. That is not a violation of forum rules.

Go for it! Show us what you got!

Send me an email and I will, but I will not tear something down written by Catholics and for Catholics through the use of God’s Word on a public forum where I will be scorned and Gods name blasphemed. If you really care to see the obvious errors, then send the email and I will be more than happy to point out a least some of the more obvious errors, but you must also include the link if you want to see the errors. If I am not mistaken it would be a breach of the rules because if I recall correctly it is off topic.

 

[PRmerger]

If I am not mistaken it would be a breach of the rules because if I recall correctly it is off topic.

The topic is " Are Catholic priests “Forbidden to Marry?”

The article addresses that topic.

So it is not a breach of rules to discuss that article.

Bring it on, Pat! Show us your objections, here on this thread, so that we can read, digest, and rebut.

The fun part about being on a forum is the back and forth, the dialogue, the argument and the rebuttal.

You are certainly free to post your objections to that article here, but you must be aware that you will receive many, many replies that will address your arguments.

Do you dare consider the repercussions of having your arguments sliced, diced and put to bed?

I dunno, maybe you have some valid objections to the article. Let’s see!

 

[PRmerger]

There are still a few good and faithful preachers out there but they are getting harder and harder to find.

Is the word “preacher” in the King James Bible?

I just did a search and couldn’t find it.

I myself have never cared for that word.

Now I know why–it’s actually not in the Bible. Not in the King James translation, anyway. Not in the New American Standard. Or the Wycliffe New Testament.

 

[guanophore]

The reason you love to ask such a question is pride and a lack of charity toward others which is a lack of charity toward god and an act of total disobedience, which God does not care much for; he seeks out the humble.

No, Pat, seeking the Truth is not a lack of charity. On the contrary, it would be a lack of charity NOT to ask such a question. When an ex-Catholic cannot identify where Scripture is found in the Mass, it demonstrates that the person may be poorly catechized, or did not study and embrace the faith into which they were baptized. This is a very important situation to substantiate, because there are many “ex-Catholics” running around believing they know and understand the teachings of the Church when they do not. I speak from experience, having been one myself at one time.

The better question would be where is the Mass in Scripture?

Also an excellent question, and one which every Catholic should be able to answer!

Since Scripture was a gift of God to man concerning Himself and His plan of redemption and how the Christian’s are to live as slaves of Christ.

A gift given through the Cathlolic Church, no less.

Why one would want to know what anyone teaches other than what God teaches is beyond my understanding, but this was not always the case; I just did not realize it at the time.

It is beyond my understanding also.

As Scripture makes clear, people tend to have itching ears and go in search of that which satisfies their own desires, forsaking that which was revealed by God.

You make a very good point that the church has lost its depth in understanding the word of God and thus the result is a lukewarm worship of God; if it can be called that.

It seems you are suffering from a deficient notion of the Church , Pat. The Church, as the HOly bride of Christ, is infallible, and cannot lose anything that God has given her, because it is preserved in her by the HS.

I will agree, though, that the fallible people who are members of her can certainly grow lukewarm and fail to study to show themselves approved.

The preachers primary responsibility is to go down deep into the understanding and knowledge of the Word as revealed in Scripture and exposit this to the flocks entrusted by god in order to lift that flock to a high understanding of and love of God and thus equipping them for every good work in Christ to display His glory through their lives.

This is one of the duties of the pastor, truly, but not the most important one. Jesus has revealed Himself personally to us through sacrament, and this personal encounter with Him is the most important. If one did not have a bible, the personal encounter with Christ would still be the foundation of faith.

We rarely see this; most people are too much into the material nature of this world, something even the most obedient Christians are caught up in, but it is the primary failure of pastors and it is a result of trying to preach to the culture rather than just allowing the Word of God do its work via the Gospel and the holy Spirit.

You seem to have suffered a great deal of disappointment from pastors and teachers. Is that what brought you to CAF?

Most preachers are lazy and do not put the necessary time or give the necessary attention in the study of the word in order to build up and equip their people that are leading.

This particular criticism seems to be a regular refrain in your posts. Have you considered forgiving them, and praying for them?

The greatest preachers and the ones that God has used throughout the church age have always been the most diligent in studying and delivering the Word of God and God has used these great men to move mountains of souls, men such as Luther and Calvin and Spurgeon and Edwards.

I will grant that they have certainly moved mountains of souls. It does not seem be related to God, though.

There are still a few good and faithful preachers out there but they are getting harder and harder to find.

Maybe you should stop looking, and just become one your own self?

 

[Pat_De]

Absolutely–let’s see it. Some real documented ‘proofs’ too and none of this “luther was a great man and got it right’. . .Got 'what” right exactly?

BTW, Pat, Luther believed in the perpetual Virginity of Mary. You probably do not. So how exactly do you know what teachings of Luther ‘got it right’ and what ones he got ‘wrong?’ What’s your authority?

The only authority given to man is the Word of God; and in that sense no man has his own authority, but uses the authority of God through His Word. Whenever men take there authority in a local assembly in the name of God, then it no longer is a church in which Jesus is building, but one that is on a foundation of sand wrought of men.

Scripture is very clear on that subject; you either have a foundation of rock (1Co 3:11) or one of sand (Mt 7:26). I’m sure Luther is fully aware of the truth concerning Mary. Luther got the Gospel right and many other things concerning the Word of God. Why do you think he had such a shattering impact on all of Christianity; he was faithful to the Word of God.

 

[Pat_De]

Yes, we are in agreement on these points.

Jesus made the re-enactment of the Passover Sacrifice in His Own Blood. The wine becomes His blood, and the bread, His flesh. He has transformed the observation of the Passover into His Supper. He is the sacrificial lamb, who has shed His blood for us.



This is what we do at the consecration.

Do you mean to say that there was a time when you did receive the Apostolic instruction about the sacrifice of the Mass?

I think it would be more correct to say that they are brought INTO that order. Every priest who serves is brought into the priesthood of Christ, who is of the order of M. without beginning, or end.

Those who are faithful to the end do not die, but will live forever more.

Actually, that scripture came from the Apostolic Sacred Tradition. Both of them agree, because they came from the same Source. There is no contradiction between Catholic Tradition and the Scripture. Ever.

In the OT we see a foreshadowing of the New. We see the priesthood of all believers, the ministerial priests, and a High Priest. This model has been fulfilled as it was patterened.

There is not much debate here; you obviously are unable to read and understand. For example if what you stated about the priests not dying and living forever, then the implication is that all the Levitical priests were damned and do not live forever and we know of a few in Scripture that were redeemed and if they were redeemed, then they would have had a priesthood that would not need to be replaced. So the physical death is the context and in the Catholic priesthood everyone has had and will have a physical death. Whereas Melchizedek had no beginnings or ends.

I wish you the very best in this life.

I

 

[guanophore]

Send me an email and I will, but I will not tear something down written by Catholics and for Catholics through the use of God’s Word on a public forum where I will be scorned and Gods name blasphemed.

Scripture is written by Catholics, for Catholics, and you have already demonstrated a predilection for taking it out of context. Why back up now?

The purpose of the forum is to support discussion of this kind. We are not here to scorn you. However if you are afraid of Catholics who read their bibles, and know history, then I can see why you would want to avoid having this discussion in public. There are not very many gutsy non-Catholics like Dokimas who are willing to take on a whole fervent cadre of us by himself.

Catholics are not permitted to blaspheme the name of God. For us, it is a mortal sin, and demonstrates a soul headed through the gates of hell.

However, it may be that you will consider our faith and doctrine blasphemous. This is not the same as us blaspheming God. It is more a matter of us blaspheming you.

If you really care to see the obvious errors, then send the email and I will be more than happy to point out a least some of the more obvious errors, but you must also include the link if you want to see the errors.

C’mon Pat! The truth loves the light! Why are you hiding?

If I am not mistaken it would be a breach of the rules because if I recall correctly it is off topic.

As I have said, I am happy to open a new thread.

This may not be possible for you, since you have so much hostility toward Catholicism, but it is possible to discuss differences of doctrine without violating the forum rules.

However, if you think you cannot do this without continually insulting us, then you will violate the forum rules.

 

[PRmerger]

Why do you think he had such a shattering impact on all of Christianity;

A chillingly accurate use of that word, “shattering”.

Because of his “shattering impact” there are now 33,000 fragments of Christianity, each bearing some sliver of truth. Yet creating such chaos and confusion that now millions of Christians don’t know whether
-one should baptize infants or adults
-one should baptize in Jesus’ name only or using the Trinitarian formula
-one should baptize in a river or by sprinkling
etc etc etc.

 

[Pat_De]

That’s a pretty arrogant, not to mention ignorant, claim to make, Pat. The Catholic Church has spent a collective 2,000 years studying and understanding the Word of God. How many years have you put in?

Also, regarding your link – I went to the “About” page and found this:

Regarding the bolded (emphasis mine), I can’t seem to find this authority stated in the Bible. I can’t say I really trust the Biblical interpretations of those who claim an authority that doesn’t exist. They just don’t seem credible.

The area of study was to correct the error stated concerning the Great White Throne. Going into a site to find what you believe to be an error adds nothing to the original correction.

 

[Pat_De]

Despite your disparaging attitude toward us, Pat, it is possible that you might learn something here!

No, Pat, it does not . Catholics know that Scriptures don’t “teach”. Teaching is an activity that can only be accomplished by persons, not books, however Holy. Jesus gave the duty of Teaching to the Apostles, and they to their successors. Teachers are called by Him, and authorized by the church. Scripture is profitable to them in this activity. Their duty is to equip the saints for the work of the ministry.

Transubstantiation is a philosophical rendering of the concept of the Real Presence used in the Latin Rite. You are correct, we will not find this word in Scripture, just like we will not find the word Trinity, or the list of books that belong in the Bible. Catholics are not dependent upon words found in scripture for doctrine. Our doctrine comes from Jesus, and was whole and entire before a word of the NT was ever written.

You certainly seem very sure of yourself, Pat.

Indeed, there was a common metaphoric use of the term “to eat”. It was used to describe sarcasm and detractory remarks about a person. So, if you think He was talking metaphorically, then the context of the culture indicates it should be translated “unless you make sarcastic and disparaging remarks about me, you will have no life in you”.How much sense does that make?

It seems that you have so many hostilities toward the Catholic faith that is is difficult for you to focus. We are happy to respond to them all, as that is why we are here, but let’s try to stay on the topic of the thread, shall we?

Actually, I find your tone derogatory and insulting.

I do, however, find myself blessed when I am insulted for the Teachings of Christ, which have been preserved infallibly in the Church by the HS.

You can claim a “disparaging attitude” and charge “hostilities toward the Catholic faith”; this means you have a God-like complex in the sense that you are claiming to be able to read the heart of a man, which only God can. I have no axe to grind with you or any other Catholic; for everyone is called to love his neighbor as himself. Who is your neighbor; anyone that you cross paths with.

I wish we could have a more charitable conversation, but that is obviously not possible so perhaps we should avoid speaking to each other least we both sin against God.

 

[guanophore]

The only authority given to man is the Word of God;

Can you please show how you support this from scripture? Can you also explain the scriptures that say the opposite?

and in that sense no man has his own authority, but uses the authority of God through His Word.

This is an interesting perspective, especially since it is based upon the premise that each man is an authority unto himself. Of course, he believes when he reads scripture that he is led by the HS, but that is why there are as many interpretations of scripture as there are belly buttons.

 Whenever men take there authority in a local assembly in the name of God, then it no longer is a church in which Jesus is building, but one that is on a foundation of sand wrought of men.

At least we are in agreement on this point.

The Scriptures are clear, though, that all authority comes from God. Further, authority is an activity, like teaching, that can only be conducted by persons, not books, however Holy. The exercise of authority requires will, discernment, and the abiltity to take responsibility. Scripture was never intended to have these qualities. Forcing Scripture into that role has resulted in persons reading it taking over the role of authority without them realizing it.

Scripture is very clear on that subject; you either have a foundation of rock (1Co 3:11) or one of sand (Mt 7:26). I’m sure Luther is fully aware of the truth concerning Mary. Luther got the Gospel right and many other things concerning the Word of God. Why do you think he had such a shattering impact on all of Christianity; he was faithful to the Word of God.

I am sure Luther is fully aware of the Truth concerning Mary also. It was one of the Apostolic Teachings that he did not abandon when he left the Church. However, that is beyond the scope of this thread.