SPLIT: From Fatima...Images & the Salvation of Catholics

[newbie1234]

What ON EARTH is wrong with asking for prayer? Aren’t we all supposed to be praying??? And how on earth would Satan ever be made happy by encouraging more people to pray to God??? (yes, through Mary but always always always TO God)

How many of the approved apparitions have asked for shrines? I only know of one, which was the Virgin of Guadalupe - and she said WHY she wanted it, which was so that MASS (prayer to God, nothing for herself) could be said there! Mass is the principal prayer said at all of the official Marian shrines, you do realise this???

I guess you are right.
Actually I am tired.
Good thread though over 500 posts.
Its 1:45am over here in Vegas. Time to go to sleep.
Good luck with those apparitions

 

[LilyM]

Good point but you know that pope john paul was the marion pope and he visited many apparition sites. I know he went to knock Ireland and others. So its no longer just a lunatic fringe group with this mary issue.

What Mary issue? Visiting a place to pay respect to the most blessed among women, who it is believed appeared at that partiular site, is somehow wrong? Tell that to all the people who visit Washington DC and go to the monuments of George Washington, Thomas Jefferson and Abraham Lincoln there then, because they’re doing roughly the same thing.

If you truly believe that Jesus is God then there is nothing wrong at all in paying respect at any time or in any place to the Mother of God.

It’s not like JP2 approved any apparition, old or new, official or unofficial (he didn’t) it’s not like he declared or even seriously considered declaring her co-redemptrix, or added ANY dogma about her to church teaching (he didn’t). What precisely did he do which so upsets you???

And yes he had a great devotion to Mary, which was a mere shadow of his devotion to Our Lord. You know he used to sit in his private chapel and SING TO Jesus present in the Tabernacle and HUG that Tabernacle as if it was the earthly body of Our Lord he was cradling in his arms. Did he do anything remotely like this for Mary? Doubt it.

 

[newbie1234]

While you believe satan was deceiving the witnesses at Fatima and other apparition sites, I believe he has deceived you and the millions of followers of Christ who have left the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church founded by Christ for denominations invented by men.

How am I not honoring God by going to a non denominatioal church. My walk has gotten 50 times as devoted as I was as a catholic. How does that displease God?

 

[Eden]

How am I not honoring God by going to a non denominatioal church. My walk has gotten 50 times as devoted as I was as a catholic. How does that displease God?

I’ve answered this repeatedly. Christ founded a Church, not the non-denominational fad that started in the 1990s.

 

[newbie1234]

What Mary issue? Visiting a place to pay respect to the most blessed among women, who it is believed appeared at that partiular site, is somehow wrong? Tell that to all the people who visit Washington DC and go to the monuments of George Washington, Thomas Jefferson and Abraham Lincoln there then, because they’re doing roughly the same thing.

If you truly believe that Jesus is God then there is nothing wrong at all in paying respect at any time or in any place to the Mother of God.

It’s not like JP2 officially approved any apparition, old or new, official or unofficial (he didn’t) it’s not like he declared or even seriously considered declaring her co-redemptrix, or added ANY dogma about her to church teaching (he didn’t). What precisely did he do which so upsets you???

The dvd actually shows jpII with the largest ever gathering of cardinals to bestow some honor on Mary which I can’t remeber at this time sorry.

 

[newbie1234]

I’ve answered this repeatedly. Christ founded a Church, not the non-denominational fad that started in the 1990s.

Doesn’t the church I go to worship Christ?

 

[LilyM]

How am I not honoring God by going to a non denominatioal church. My walk has gotten 50 times as devoted as I was as a catholic. How does that displease God?

Because Jesus said ‘not everyone who calls me Lord Lord will be saved, but those who hear the will of my father and do it’

What was the Father’s will? ‘May they be one as you and I are one’. How can you be one with Christ and yet sundered from the One Church (not ChurchES) which he founded on Peter the Rock (not whichever little pebble founded your denomination or church) in 33 AD (not 1500 or 1800 or 1900 AD)

 

[Eden]

Doesn’t the church I go to worship Christ?

Yes, but your church does not teach the fullness of the faith.
For instance, by leaving the Church Christ founded, you have rejected Christ in the Eucharist.

 

[newbie1234]

I’ve answered this repeatedly. Christ founded a Church, not the non-denominational fad that started in the 1990s.

As for the catholic church, there will be a great apostacy in the end times. You can already see it. There is such a shortage of priests in the US, they have to go to ethiopia to get priests. Churches in england are closing down and turning into restaurants . France is no longer considered a catholic nation
(i read this on the net this morning)
dioceses in the US are claiming bankruptcy.
But yet evangelical Christianity is among the fastest growing faiths.
Call it a fad or whatever. I know my devotion to God has never been stronger. While most of my Catholic extended family doesn’t even step foot in their church.

 

[newbie1234]

Yes, but your church does not teach the fullness of the faith.
For instance, by leaving the Church Christ founded, you have rejected Christ in the Eucharist.

Tell you the truth I never believed the priest turned the wafer into the 2000 yr old flesh of Jesus
Or the wine into 2000yr old blood.
So I guess I was never a real catholic after all.

 

[Eden]

Since you’ve shared your criticisms of the Catholic Church with us, now is probably a good time for me to share my views of Protestant trends like Non-Denominationalism. I’ve been invited to these kinds of places and I have always found them to be extremely shallow and very me-centered and emotionally driven. I’m not accusing you personally of being you-centered in your faith, rather than Christ-centered. I don’t know you.

But I know people who have left the Catholic Church for Evangelicalism. They were unhappy with some of the difficult teachings of the Church. It’s difficult to live the life that Christ has asked us to live, to pick up His Cross and follow Him. The idea of once saved, always saved is, let’s face it, very attractive. I believe it is a deception of satan. We certainly put our guard down from the possibility of being tempted to sin when we believe we are guaranteed salvation. In any event, I know people who have literally church-shopped until they found the one that agreed with their views about what the religion should teach. See? They sought a church that conformed to them instead of conforming themselves to the will of God. A very dangerous theology indeed… And, as I stated before, I found non-denominationalism to be very shallow.

 

[Eden]

Tell you the truth I never believed the priest turned the wafer into the 2000 yr old flesh of Jesus
Or the wine into 2000yr old blood.
So I guess I was never a real catholic after all.

This is again why I say that you have joined a trend. All of the Early Church Fathers, for at least the first 500 years wrote that Christ was truly present in the Eucharist. If there is one doctrine of the Church that could not be more plain in the Bible, it’s the Real Presence in the Eucharist.

 

[Eden]

As for the catholic church, there will be a great apostacy in the end times. You can already see it. There is such a shortage of priests in the US, they have to go to ethiopia to get priests. Churches in england are closing down and turning into restaurants . France is no longer considered a catholic nation
(i read this on the net this morning)
dioceses in the US are claiming bankruptcy.
But yet evangelical Christianity is among the fastest growing faiths.
Call it a fad or whatever. I know my devotion to God has never been stronger. While most of my Catholic extended family doesn’t even step foot in their church.

Predictions of the end of the Catholic Church have been around for 2,000 years.

Jimmy Akin says it way better than I can in the “Fast-Growing Fallacy”

If one were to prefer religion based on long-term, sustained growth, the Catholic Church would be the one to prefer. With almost 2,000 years of growth, the Church today is larger than it has ever been before, with over a billion members. More than half of all Christians are Catholics and more than one in six human beings is a Catholic. And the number is rising.

For example, in 1997—the most recent year for which global statistics are currently available—the Church had an overall increase in membership of over ten million, only a little more than half of which can be accounted for by baptisms under the age of seven, and an increase in spite of the loss of members due to death and defection.

And the Catholic Church is growing not only in the world at large but in America in particular. In 1998—the most recent year for which national statistics are available—the U.S. Catholic population had an overall increase of 455,000, including 162,000 conversions to the Catholic Church (i.e., cases of people joining other than baptisms of those below the age of seven).

It may be important to point this out to those who commit the “fastest-growing” fallacy and wish to represent the Catholic Church as stagnant or declining in membership. It is especially valuable to know the number of adult conversions per year, since an anti-Catholic might attempt to dismiss American Church growth as due only to infant baptisms or immigration.

Needless to say, the Catholic growth rates in both the United States and the world dwarf what any other church is doing. Nobody else in the world gets an net increase of ten million people in a year, and nobody else in America gets a net increase of half a million people in a year. And remember that these represent net increases in membership—after deaths and defections have been factored in—so the actual number of converts is significantly higher.

Even if we look at just U.S. membership growth without infant baptism, nobody else in America gets 162,000 new non-infant members in a year, nor does any other American church have an overall increase of half a million members a year. When you really look at the numbers, the picture that those who commit the “fastest-growing” fallacy often wish to paint of a stagnant, declining Catholic Church simply won’t hold up.

Ultimately though, as we said at the beginning, membership affiliation is to be determined by truth, not popularity or growth. And in the truth category the Catholic Church wins hands down.

catholic.com/thisrock/2000/0005chap.asp

 

[newbie1234]

This is again why I say that you have joined a trend. All of the Early Church Fathers, for at least the first 500 years wrote that Christ was truly present in the Eucharist. If there is one doctrine of the Church that could not be more plain in the Bible, it’s the Real Presence in the Eucharist.

So Jesus is present in your eucharist but not mine because of a specific ritual the thepriest goes through that my pastor does not go through. Even if we use the same elements like wafer and water and say the same prayer and remember the same person Jesus. Somehow when you eat it, it is the actual flesh and blood but for me its wafer and wine.

 

[newbie1234]

Predictions of the end of the Catholic Church have been around for 2,000 years.

Jimmy Akin says it way better than I can in the “Fast-Growing Fallacy”

If one were to prefer religion based on long-term, sustained growth, the Catholic Church would be the one to prefer. With almost 2,000 years of growth, the Church today is larger than it has ever been before, with over a billion members. More than half of all Christians are Catholics and more than one in six human beings is a Catholic. And the number is rising.

For example, in 1997—the most recent year for which global statistics are currently available—the Church had an overall increase in membership of over ten million, only a little more than half of which can be accounted for by baptisms under the age of seven, and an increase in spite of the loss of members due to death and defection.

And the Catholic Church is growing not only in the world at large but in America in particular. In 1998—the most recent year for which national statistics are available—the U.S. Catholic population had an overall increase of 455,000, including 162,000 conversions to the Catholic Church (i.e., cases of people joining other than baptisms of those below the age of seven).

It may be important to point this out to those who commit the “fastest-growing” fallacy and wish to represent the Catholic Church as stagnant or declining in membership. It is especially valuable to know the number of adult conversions per year, since an anti-Catholic might attempt to dismiss American Church growth as due only to infant baptisms or immigration.

Needless to say, the Catholic growth rates in both the United States and the world dwarf what any other church is doing. Nobody else in the world gets an net increase of ten million people in a year, and nobody else in America gets a net increase of half a million people in a year. And remember that these represent net increases in membership—after deaths and defections have been factored in—so the actual number of converts is significantly higher.

Even if we look at just U.S. membership growth without infant baptism, nobody else in America gets 162,000 new non-infant members in a year, nor does any other American church have an overall increase of half a million members a year. When you really look at the numbers, the picture that those who commit the “fastest-growing” fallacy often wish to paint of a stagnant, declining Catholic Church simply won’t hold up.

Ultimately though, as we said at the beginning, membership affiliation is to be determined by truth, not popularity or growth. And in the truth category the Catholic Church wins hands down.

catholic.com/thisrock/2000/0005chap.asp

That is awesome. How come when I walk into a catholic mass all I see is a few old ladies.And I think that article was written in 2000.

 

[LilyM]

Tell you the truth I never believed the priest turned the wafer into the 2000 yr old flesh of Jesus
Or the wine into 2000yr old blood.
So I guess I was never a real catholic after all.

You never believed it - probably based on the same insufficient understanding that you’ve brought to your ‘analysis’ (and I’m being generous in calling it that) of Marian devotion.

Now there is only one truth. Either Christ DID truly turn that bread and wine into his body and blood or he didn’t. Either he DID command his apostles and their successors (and ONLY to those who were in direct and unbroken succession to them) to do the same, and did pass on to them the power to do so, or he didn’t. Either the Catholics are right about this or they’re wrong. And they’re not right for those who believe and wrong for those who don’t.

The mere fact that you or I believe it is so makes not the blindest bit of difference to its truth. But all the evidence about what the Early Church (who after all were taught at the knees of the Apostles themselves) held was that it was the Real Presence - and that Apostolic Succession as we understand it was necessary. They believed it in the earliest days and they and 99% of ALL Christians believed it right up to the time of the Reformation.

For that reason alone the Catholic Church is much more likely to be right than you.

 

[Eden]

So Jesus is present in your eucharist but not mine because of a specific ritual the thepriest goes through that my pastor does not go through. Even if we use the same elements like wafer and water and say the same prayer and remember the same person Jesus. Somehow when you eat it, it is the actual flesh and blood but for me its wafer and wine.

A Catholic priest has the authority to consecrate the Eucharist because he has had a valid ordination through the laying on of hands by a bishop with apostolic succession. A preacher at a non-denominational church does not have this.

The requirements for a valid ordination to the priesthood are laid out in Scriptures. The Scriptures do not say that a man becomes a presbyter by getting a degree at a Bible College.
Christians in the early Church also believed that bishops, priests (presbyters), and deacons possessed real spiritual powers that came only through Holy Orders (the laying on of hands by a bishop with valid apostolic succession).

 

[Eden]

That is awesome. How come when I walk into a catholic mass all I see is a few old ladies.And I think that article was written in 2000.

I’m sorry but I don’t believe you. I live in the Diocese of Las Vegas and Mass is packed every Sunday. If I’m late, I have to stand.

 

[newbie1234]

A Catholic priest has the authority to consecrate the Eucharist because he has had a valid ordination through the laying on of hands by a bishop with apostolic succession. A preacher at a non-denominational church does not have this.

The requirements for a valid ordination to the priesthood are laid out in Scriptures. The Scriptures do not say that a man becomes a presbyter by getting a degree at a Bible College.
Christians in the early Church also believed that bishops, priests (presbyters), and deacons possessed real spiritual powers that came only through Holy Orders (the laying on of hands by a bishop with valid apostolic succession).

I know what the church says. But what do you believe in your heart of hearts?

 

[LilyM]

A Catholic priest has the authority to consecrate the Eucharist because he has had a valid ordination through the laying on of hands by a bishop with apostolic succession. A preacher at a non-denominational church does not have this.

The requirements for a valid ordination to the priesthood are laid out in Scriptures. The Scriptures do not say that a man becomes a presbyter by getting a degree at a Bible College.
Christians in the early Church also believed that bishops, priests (presbyters), and deacons possessed real spiritual powers that came only through Holy Orders (the laying on of hands by a bishop with valid apostolic succession).

Amen! Even Paul himself had to have Apostolic hands laid on him before he went out a-teaching and a-preaching :yup: let alone blessing and breaking bread - so I absolutely believe it with every fibre of my being.