SPLIT: From Fatima...Images & the Salvation of Catholics

[newbie1234]

I’m sorry but I don’t believe you. I live in the Diocese of Las Vegas and Mass is packed every Sunday. If I’m late, I have to stand.

oh las vegas! where do you go to church?

 

[Eden]

Not only is the Diocese one of the fastest growing areas, but is also home to one of the largest tourist destinations within the United States. The basic facts of Las Vegas are striking: city population is now over one million people; the tourist industry brings in some 35 million people a year and the people moving to the Las Vegas area number around 5,000 a month. We estimate that one third of our population is Catholic, or about 600,000 people.

The Diocese consists of 25 parishes, 2 Shrines, and 7 missions. There are 31 incardinated active diocesan priests who receive assistance from 21 other extern diocesan priests and Religious. With these statistics, you can easily see that the need for parishes and priests in the Diocese of Las Vegas has never been greater. The need to build more parishes is crucial. Yet, in order to accomplish all of this, our Diocese lacks the priests to shepherd these growing faith communities.

The Catholic Church in Nevada is a vibrant community of faith filled people who gather often to celebrate their faith.

lasvegas-diocese.org/voices_in_desert.html

(Priest shortage does not = Catholic shortage)

 

[Eden]

oh las vegas! where do you go to church?

I’ll just say that I live in a community 15 miles south of Las Vegas and attend a church that just had it’s inaugural Mass at the new site this month. We had Mass in a school gymnasium for over a year while the new Church was being built (which was needed to support the growing Catholic population here).

 

[newbie1234]

Not only is the Diocese one of the fastest growing areas, but is also home to one of the largest tourist destinations within the United States. The basic facts of Las Vegas are striking: city population is now over one million people; the tourist industry brings in some 35 million people a year and the people moving to the Las Vegas area number around 5,000 a month. We estimate that one third of our population is Catholic, or about 600,000 people.

The Diocese consists of 25 parishes, 2 Shrines, and 7 missions. There are 31 incardinated active diocesan priests who receive assistance from 21 other extern diocesan priests and Religious. With these statistics, you can easily see that the need for parishes and priests in the Diocese of Las Vegas has never been greater. The need to build more parishes is crucial. Yet, in order to accomplish all of this, our Diocese lacks the priests to shepherd these growing faith communities.

The Catholic Church in Nevada is a vibrant community of faith filled people who gather often to celebrate their faith.

lasvegas-diocese.org/voices_in_desert.html

(Priest shortage does not = Catholic shortage)

nice stats but where do you go to church

 

[newbie1234]

I’ll just say that I live in a community 15 miles south of Las Vegas and attend a church that just had it’s inaugural Mass at the new site this month. We had Mass in a school gymnasium for over a year while the new Church was being built (which was needed to support the growing Catholic population here).

are you around blue diamond
you know I live in Summerlin and I might be looking for some eucharist some day. You wouldn’t allow me in?

 

[Eden]

Can I ask why you want to know specifics? I would think the statistics of the Diocese have more authority than my unnecessary testimony as to where I live and the specific parish I belong to. I don’t think it’s appropriate to give out identifying information online.

 

[newbie1234]

Can I ask why you want to know specifics? I would think the statistics of the Diocese have more authority than my unnecessary testimony as to where I live and the specific parish I belong to. I don’t think it’s appropriate to give out identifying information online.

Sorry for the intrusion.
I guess some catholics are not that friendly.

 

[LilyM]

Sorry for the intrusion.
I guess some catholics are not that friendly.

It’s the internet - members on this forum have been stalked and harassed when they give out personal details such as where they live. It’s a common precaution on forums like this, no reflection on you or us.

 

[Eden]

Sorry for the intrusion.
I guess some catholics are not that friendly.

Some Catholics, or just me?

 

[Eden]

It’s the internet - members on this forum have been stalked and harassed when they give out personal details such as where they live. It’s a common precaution on forums like this, no reflection on you or us.

Exactly. Despite our differences in faith, I recognize you as a Christian brother. But there are many visitors to this site who read these threads, too. It’s nothing personal. But it is really late. I’ll try to stop by tomorrow to see what’s going on on this thread.

 

[newbie1234]

It’s the internet - members on this forum have been stalked and harassed when they give out personal details such as where they live. It’s a common precaution on forums like this, no reflection on you or us.

OK So should I retract the statement that Ilive 15 minutes from her. I bet More people hate me on this site than her

 

[LilyM]

OK So should I retract the statement that Ilive 15 minutes from her. I bet More people hate me on this site than her

Probably not you know.

And given that no-one knows where Eden lives, the fact of your living 15 minutes from her won’t make it possible for them to locate you either

 

[newbie1234]

Some Catholics, or just me?

just you:thumbsup:

 

[newbie1234]

Good night all! It’s three am. 15 to 20 hrs on this thread in the last two days. wow
all that and nothing accomplished.

 

[Mannyfit75]

I know what the church says. But what do you believe in your heart of hearts?

I can’t speak for Eden but since she is Catholic, a practicing Catholic would believe that the Eucharist is the Body and Blood, Soul, and Divinity of Our Beloved Jesus Christ.

From David Mac’s website:

Let us look at some simple Scripture passages that Catholics feel are hard to ignore when considering “the bread” of communion

* Jesus said "Your ancestors ate manna in the wilderness and died...I am the living bread that came down from heaven...unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man you will not have life within you."
* Jesus was born in "Bethlehem" which, in Hebrew, literally means "house of Bread"
* A manger was not a place where animals stayed. It was a trough where food was put to feed the animals. Mary laid Jesus in a place where food was placed
* At the last supper, which was a passover meal, Jesus said "take this and eat it, this is my body."

 

[Mannyfit75]

Was Jesus being literal when he said “I am the bread of Life”

Some Evangelicals believe that Jesus intended his phrase “I am the bread of life” to be understood in a symbolic way. Catholics believe that Jesus clearly spells it out “Very truly unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.” (Jn 6:53) Many followers left him saying “who can follow this teaching.” Christ let them leave. He did not say “Hey, you have it all wrong, come back, its just a metaphor - a symbol- its not really my flesh” (2) Here is a further discussion on why Catholics believe the desciples fully understood “I am the bread” to be Jesus’ actual body before they abandoned him.

Some Evangelicals believe that when Jesus said “It is the spirit that gives life; the flesh is useless,”(Jn 6:63)he was saying that his teaching “I am the bread of life” was just a metaphor. Catholics believe that Jesus was explaining to them that the limitations of their faith is their flesh so they could not see the spiritual truth in what he is saying. We must remember this was Jesus’ response to them saying “This teaching is difficult, who can accept it.”

Catholics are clear that the Eucharist is not just a spiritual warm fuzzy like when we get hit with the Holy Spirit at a prayer meeting. It is the only body Jesus has had since the ascension. We share in this body during communion and become his body (the Church).

Catholics believe this is a great mystery of the Christian faith. But we believe Jesus set it up very well before dropping this truth “bomb” on the disciples in the book of John 6. John 6:3 begins with the miracle of the loaves, he then talks about the miracle of the manna in the dessert (Jn 6:49). These both foreshadow his most powerful statement “I am the Bread of Life” and help him set the people up for what he knew would be the most difficult statement to understand that he ever spoke. He knew many would leave at that point and so after setting it up with the foreshadowing, after explaining it four times, and clarifying himself in Jn 6:63 he let them go (Jn 6:66). He did not chase after them to assure them he was just talking “symbolically” because they understood his words correctly and they could not accept it. Thank God the apostles stayed with him.

 

[Mannyfit75]

This belief that the Eucharist becomes the glorified body of Christ is not “consubstantiation.” Catholics believe the Eucharist is fully Him (Transubstantiation). Catholics believe the miracle of the Eucharist is that it has the taste, smell, and shape of the wafer but that during the mass, the substance actually becomes Christ’s glorified body which can only been seen through the eyes of Faith. Some might say “how is that possible?” My question would be “could Jesus do it if He wanted to?” Catholics believe the answer is “yes.” They believe he wanted to, that He said he would do it and that He delivered on his promise.

Catholics believe the act of “disobedience” in Eden was to eat of the “tree of the knowledge of good and evil.” (Gen 2:17) This introduced death into the world. Catholics believe that the act of “obedience” that introduces life into the world is to follow Jesus’ command when he says “whoever eats me will live because of me” Catholics believe Jesus is the new life.

Scripture says “For indeed Christ our Passover was sacrificed for us. Therefore, let us keep this feast.” (1 Cor 5:7-8) This relates to Exodus 12:1-42. The Passover meal saved from the angel of death who was striking the first born children in Egypt. At a traditional Passover supper, the Jews ate the sacrificial lamb. Catholics believe Paul is saying that this feast should continue. They don’t think that he was “re-sacrificing” Christ when he kept this feast.

We see the Eucharistic formula throughout Scripture. At table, Jesus takes . . . blesses . . . breaks . . . and gives the bread. He also took a cup of wine; after giving thanks to God, He gave it to His disciples saying, “This is My blood . . . of the [new] covenant.” Matthew 26:26-29; Mark 14:22-25; Luke 22:15-20. This is the same formula Jesus uses during the first Eucharistic celebration after the resurrection when He encountered two disciples on the road to Emmaus (see Luke 24:13-35). When the Corinthians drift from the proper Eucharistic formula, Paul corrects them.(1 Corinthians 11:23-29)

Scott Hahn says:

Though Paul was not there at the Last Supper, he tells them he received this teaching from the churches founded by the Apostles; they, in turn, received this teaching directly from the Lord: "I received from the Lord what I also handed on to you" The Greek words Paul uses - translated as "received" and "handed on" - are technical terms the rabbis of his day used to describe the keeping and teaching of sacred traditions. Paul uses these same words when he talks about his teaching on Christ's death and Resurrection (see 1 Corinthians 15:2-3). These two sacred traditions - the truth about Christ's death and Resurrection and the truth about the Eucharist, the memorial of His death - were received from the Lord and and handed on by the Apostles. These traditions were inseparable and crucial to the message of salvation they preached.

Through Christ's death and Resurrection, Paul said, "we are being saved." In the Eucharist, that saving event is "remembered" in a way that communicates that salvation to us: "For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup," Paul said, "you proclaim the death of the Lord until He comes" (see 1 Corinthians 11:26).

In John's Gospel we read "I am the Bread of Life" (see John 6:34, 51). In the other, delivered at the Last Supper (see John 13:2,4), Jesus again says two times: "I am the Vine" [referring to wine] (see John 15:1,5).

From: salvationhistory.com/online/beginner/course2_lesson1a.cfm

 

[Mannyfit75]

Is the Eucharist Cannibalistic?

Some Evangelicals feel that the idea of eating Jesus is Cannibalistic. Catholics don’t think so. When Catholics say that the bread becomes the body of Christ, they are talking about the glorified body of Christ. Immediately after Jesus said “whoever eats me will live because of me” (Jn 6:58) He says “what if you saw the Son of Man ascending to where he was before?” (Jn 6:62) Catholics feel he is explaining that his body will be changed into a glorified body (such as is described in 1 Cor 15:40) his body became glorified at the ascension. This passage of John foreshadows the ascension. And this is how Jesus clarified himself and made the distinction between his mortal body (Cannibalistic concept) and his Glorified body (Eucharistic concept). The glorified body of Christ was the revelation of his true nature as the Incarnate God. That is what we receive.

I was recently on a bus traveling to Toronto when I saw a university student with his history book “The Romans, from Village to Empire.” (Oxford Press 2004). I flipped it open to the section on Christianity in ancient Rome. It discussed the Roman’s impression of the early Christians.

...Their 'eating the body and drinking the blood of their savior' was called cannibalism...

So Evangelicals are not the first to think this insistence that Jesus is present in the Eucharist is odd. The bad news is that they share this opinion with Pagan Romans long before Constantine. Yup, the early Christians believed what we Catholics still believe about the Eucharist.
Jesus is the Lamb of God

In the New Testament Jesus is called the “Lamb of God” 34 times (i.e., Jn 1:36). Scripture refers to the Last Supper as the Passover Lamb (Mk 14:11). At the original Passover (Exodus 12:1-42) the Lamb of God had to be eaten. At the last supper Jesus said “take this and eat it, this is my body.” Catholics don’t think this is a coincidence.
Is the Eucharist a re-sacrifice of Jesus?

No its not. He died once for our sins and his presence remains forever. In Catholic terms we say it is a “Sacramental Expression of a Paschal Mystery.” (Paschal means “having to do with the Passover”.)

When Evangelicals say “I am washed in the blood of Jesus” (which I love) are they re-sacrificing Jesus who died 2000 years ago? No, they are experiencing the perpetual nature of his sacrifice for our sins.

Breaking of bread happened every time apostles met. It appears to be a very sacred thing they did together rather than just some fellowship. (Acts 2:42, 1 Cor 11:20-21). Failing to discern the body & blood brings condemnation, “That is why many of you are ill and infirm and a considerable number are dying”, (1 Cor 11:27-32). Jesus said “This is my body” (“Esti” in Greek).(1 Co 11:24) There are a dozen Greek words that could have been used to describe it as a “symbol”. But those words were not used. The word used is “body.”
When the bread and wine become the Body and Blood of Christ, why do they still look and taste like bread and wine?

Ok, I’m going to get heady here. Here’s a theological explanation of what Catholics believe happens in Transubstantiation. It introduces two important medieval theological words “accidents” and “substance”. (note: “accident” is not like a car accident)

 

[Mannyfit75]

In the Church’s traditional theological language, in the act of consecration during the Eucharist the “substance” of the bread and wine is changed by the power of the Holy Spirit into the “substance” of the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ. At the same time, the “accidents” or appearances of bread and wine remain. “Substance” and “accident” are here used as philosophical terms that have been adapted by great medieval theologians such as St. Thomas Aquinas in their efforts to understand and explain the faith. Such terms are used to convey the fact that what appears to be bread and wine in every way (at the level of “accidents” or physical attributes - that is, what can be seen, touched, tasted, or measured) in fact is now the Body and Blood of Christ (at the level of “substance” or deepest reality). This change at the level of substance from bread and wine into the Body and Blood of Christ is called “transubstantiation.” According to Catholic faith, we can speak of the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist because this transubstantiation has occurred (cf. Catechism, no. 1376) … Christ’s presence in the Eucharist is unique in that, even though the consecrated bread and wine truly are in substance the Body and Blood of Christ, they have none of the accidents or characteristics of a human body, but only those of bread and wine.

How come people can get drunk if they drink a bunch of consecrated wine?

I got an email that said:

When the wine in transubstantiated into the blood of Christ, does the alcoholic content cease to exist? ... why were some of the Corinthians (ICor.) becoming drunk from the wine at the Lord's Supper?

Saying that people getting drunk on consecrated wine is proof of non transubstantiation indicates confusion over the concept of accidents versus substance. I’m allergic to bread and yes the Eucharist also. That is the accidents (physical attributes). I’m still totally into the Eucharist even though I’m allergic, and take a tiny corner of it at Mass. The physical characteristics remain in tact. The substance however, is totally Jesus. And yup, this is hard to understand. Even the Bible says its hard to understand (Jn 6:56) and lots of desciples quit over it.

In Ezekiel 47:12 We read “…because the water for them flows from the sanctuary. Their fruit will be for food and their leaves for healing.”
The early Church celebrated the Eucharist - it’s not a medieval invention

There are numerous letters from early Christians that recognize and document this belief in the real presence of Jesus. In 2000 years there have been no letters discovered from early Christians that indicate they thought it was just a symbol.

A well meaning Evangelical emailed me and said Church Fathers Theordoret of Cyrus, Iraneus and Augustine did not think the Eucharist was fully the Body and Blood of Jesus. I went back to the original documents of the quotes he provided. They were out of context and the Theodoret and Irenaeus explicitly declared the Eucharist to be the Body and Blood of Christ. More here.

Let’s go back to 110 A.D. to the time of Ignatius, Bishop of Antioch where Jesus’ followers were first called Christians (Acts 11:26). Ignatius had heard the Good News from John himself who wrote a Eucharist passage himself. (Jn 6:48-58) He wrote to the Churches while he was on the way to Rome to be thrown to lions. His letters were highly regarded in the early Church. He said “…They (the heretics) even absent themselves from the Eucharist and the public prayers (c.f. Acts 2:42) because they will not admit that the Eucharist is the flesh of our savior Jesus Christ.” (3)

Writing to the church at Philadelphia, states, “Take care, then, to partake of one Eucharist; for, one is the Flesh of Our Lord Jesus Christ, and one the cup to unite us with His Blood, and one altar, just as there is one bishop assisted by the presbytery and the deacons, my fellow servants. Thus you will conform in all your actions to the will of God” (Letter to the Philadelphians, par. 4).

To the Church in Ephesus, Ignatius wrote that they were to “obey bishop and clergy with undivided minds and to share in the one common breaking of bread - the medicine of immortality and the sovereign remedy by which we escape death and live in Jesus Christ for ever more.” (Eph 20:3)

It appears that early Christians were teaching we “live in Jesus Christ for evermore” in the Eucharist. (Epistle to the Smyrnaeans 8:1-2). No early writings of the church view the Lord’s Supper as a mere symbol that failed to do what it symbolized.
Comparison Chart - The Fall and Redemption

The following table shows the Biblical comparison of Adam and Eve’s fall in the garden by eating the forbidden fruit to Mary’s “yes” and Jesus’ presence in the Eucharist. It highlights why Catholics call Mary the “new Eve,” why we believe the Eucharist is the Body of Christ, and the reasons we must eat it.

 

[Mannyfit75]

Source:

davidmacd.com/catholic/eucharist.htm