SPLIT: Here is what we Christians have a problem with, concerning Catholic doctrines:

[mark_a]

Hi, My name is Selma Kelly of OC, Cal. I’m a Protestant and also baptized in the Holy Spirit, as shown in Acts Chapter 2 and Acts Chapter 19.

About Hail Marys. Jesus said “chanting” is a FORBIDDEN heathen practice. Take a look …

Matt 6: 7-9: And when you pray, do not use vain repetitions as the heathen do. For they think they will be heard for their many words. Therefore do not be like them.

Further, chanting defies basic principles of faith. Why do we need to pray something over and over? Do we not have faith that God heard us “the first time”?

Further, nowhere did Jesus say to “ask anything” in Miriam’s name (that’s her real name). At all times He said “Ask in My name”. See John Chapters 14, 15 to 16 throughout.

John 14:14: If you ask anything IN MY NAME I will do it.

Further, no dead person has ever earned the right to hear prayer or answer prayer. Only Christ earned this right on the Cross.

1 Tim 2:5: For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus…

Only One ! ! ! As for mysteries of prayer and rosaries … Christ died openly on a city garbage dump. He does NOTHING in “mysterious ways” but used clear and simple methods that speak to EVERYONE … rich, poor … dumb, smart …black, white.

I have a very special scripture meant for your personally … Proverbs 10:22. May it rest upon your house forever.

Best regards In Him. sk.

My question to you is: How does Catholic “doctrine” being wrong. . . . . . .

 

[ricmat]

Apparently so…but, man, there sure are a lot of low denominators out there! Hard to overlook them…especially since I’m related to LOTS of them!

Congratulations, you have stumbled across the phenomenon known as “cultural Catholics”. These folks sometimes go to church, sometimes pray, sometimes do good works, sometimes have faith, sometimes follow the commandments, but often they don’t. They often cherry pick which church teachings to follow (which also makes them “cafeteria Catholics.” They often do the bare minimum that they think will get them into heaven, or keep them out of hell. I suppose that makes them just like Protestants, or Hindus, or Buddhists, etc.

And to be a bit more specific, they are not following the teachings of the Catholic Church very well.

Why would you pick somebody who you know is NOT following the teachings of the Catholic Church, and then say “Look, look how bad those Catholics are” ?

 

[mark_a]

Good Morning, my name is Selma Kelly, a Christian from OC, Cal, also baptized in the Holy Spirit according to Acts Chapter 2 and Chapter 19. Here is what we Christians have a problem with, concerning Catholic doctrines:

1. Praying to Miriam and statues of dead people:

(Her name is Miriam, not Mary.) No mortal has the right to hear or answer prayer because they didn’t earn this right on the cross. Christ alone is our High Priest and Mediator.

1st Tim 2:5: For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus…

Christ also told us throughout John Chapters 14, 15 & 16 to ask ONLY in His name…

John 14:14: If you ask anything in My name, I will do it.

1. Chanting over Rosaries:

Christ said God will NOT answer “chanting”. He was very specific when He said …

Matt 6: 7-9: And when you pray, do not use vain repetitions as the heathen do. For they think they will be heard for their many words. Therefore DO NOT be like them.

Please notice also that in Miriam’s prophecy … “My soul does magnify the Lord” … she calls God “My Savior”. This means, she was a normal person, like all of us, who also needed a Savior.

1. Teaching Purgatory:

There is no such thing as this place. Catholics use 1st Corinthians 3:10 as “proof” of Purgatory, which is ludicrous. If you read this passage, Paul is talking about Life In Christ and how difficult it can get sometimes. It does NOT speak of the afterlife.

Further, God said The Blood of Christ washes away ALL sins, which means under this Blood, there is no need for further punishment after death. Take a look…

John 1:29: John saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God who TAKES AWAY the sin of the world."

1. Teaching Limbus Infantium:

This is a false teaching. No mention of this anywhere in the NT and OT. Jesus used children as “the standard” of what we need to become to get into Heaven, so we already know they’re innocent. Augustine had the audacity to say unbaptized kids will “go to the place of the damned”. In having said this, he makes himself greater than Christ because Christ never said anything like this EVER !

Further, nobody has to “pay for the original sin”. The
“original sin” was not committed here on Earth by man. It was committed by Satan in Heaven and pre-dates even Adam and Eve! So, no need to go send babies to Purgatory. Christ paid it IN FULL on the Cross for all of us ! ! !

Further, Pope Benedict in his 1984 radio address stated Limbus Infantium has never been a proven doctrine and therefore does not endorse this. Last month he said it again which hit the world-wide news.

1. Confessions: The Apostle John said in 1st John 1:9 that if we confess our sins TO CHRIST, He is faithful to forgive us our sins. However, it also says in James 5:16-18 to “confess our sins with one another so that you will be healed”. No problem with that. We all know “talking things out” is a great help. But if we choose to talk to Christ alone, this is not a sin. The Apostle John said Christ is all we need.

. . . . make skelly123 “doctrine” right?

 

[Church_Militant]

Wow…this is eye opening! I had no idea there was any such thing. I am learning that like Protestantism, Catholics have all sorts of flavors, too. So, do you still think all these flavors are still under the umbrella of one “true Church”? Or perhaps you believe like I do that each person, no matter what church they go to,

will be judged by God individually. We won’t be wearing signs on our chests that say, “Catholic” or “Baptist” or “Pentecostal”. God will simply judge us according to our faith in Jesus Christ.They are still Catholic…the rest I leave to the one who judges.

Catholics believe in individual judgement at death, but you’re right. You have a lot to learn about us.

 

[lak611]

I prefer the non-inclusive language version: “For his love endures forever!”

My favourite translation is from the KJV.

Psa 136:1 O give thanks unto the LORD; for he is good: for his mercy endureth for ever.
Psa 136:2 O give thanks unto the God of gods: for his mercy endureth for ever.
Psa 136:3 O give thanks to the Lord of lords: for his mercy endureth for ever.
Psa 136:4 To him who alone doeth great wonders: for his mercy endureth for ever.
Psa 136:5 To him that by wisdom made the heavens: for his mercy endureth for ever.
Psa 136:6 To him that stretched out the earth above the waters: for his mercy endureth for ever.
Psa 136:7 To him that made great lights: for his mercy endureth for ever:
Psa 136:8 The sun to rule by day: for his mercy endureth for ever:
Psa 136:9 The moon and stars to rule by night: for his mercy endureth for ever.
Psa 136:10 To him that smote Egypt in their firstborn: for his mercy endureth for ever:
Psa 136:11 And brought out Israel from among them: for his mercy endureth for ever:
Psa 136:12 With a strong hand, and with a stretched out arm: for his mercy endureth for ever.
Psa 136:13 To him which divided the Red sea into parts: for his mercy endureth for ever:
Psa 136:14 And made Israel to pass through the midst of it: for his mercy endureth for ever:
Psa 136:15 But overthrew Pharaoh and his host in the Red sea: for his mercy endureth for ever.
Psa 136:16 To him which led his people through the wilderness: for his mercy endureth for ever.
Psa 136:17 To him which smote great kings: for his mercy endureth for ever:
Psa 136:18 And slew famous kings: for his mercy endureth for ever:
Psa 136:19 Sihon king of the Amorites: for his mercy endureth for ever:
Psa 136:20 And Og the king of Bashan: for his mercy endureth for ever:
Psa 136:21 And gave their land for an heritage: for his mercy endureth for ever:
Psa 136:22 Even an heritage unto Israel his servant: for his mercy endureth for ever.
Psa 136:23 Who remembered us in our low estate: for his mercy endureth for ever:
Psa 136:24 And hath redeemed us from our enemies: for his mercy endureth for ever.
Psa 136:25 Who giveth food to all flesh: for his mercy endureth for ever.
Psa 136:26 O give thanks unto the God of heaven: for his mercy endureth for ever.

 

[Church_Militant]

From the DRB.

1 Praise the Lord, for he is good: for his mercy endureth for ever.
2 Praise ye the God of gods: for his mercy endureth for ever.
3 Praise ye the Lord of lords: for his mercy endureth for ever.
4 Who alone doth great wonders: for his mercy endureth for ever. 5 Who made the heavens in understanding: for his mercy endureth for ever.
6 Who established the earth above the waters: for his mercy endureth for ever.
7 Who made the great lights: for his mercy endureth for ever.
8 The sun to rule over the day: for his mercy endureth for ever.
9 The moon and the stars to rule the night: for his mercy endureth for ever.
10 Who smote Egypt with their firstborn: for his mercy endureth for ever.
11 Who brought Israel from among them: for his mercy endureth for ever.
12 With a mighty hand and a stretched out arm: for his mercy endureth for ever.
13 Who divided the Red Sea into parts: for his mercy endureth for ever.
14 And brought out Israel through the midst thereof: for his mercy endureth for ever.
15 And overthrew Pharao and his host in the Red Sea: for his mercy endureth for ever.
16 Who led his people through the desert: for his mercy endureth for ever.
17 Who smote great kings: for his mercy endureth for ever.
18 And slew strong kings: for his mercy endureth for ever.
19 Sehon king of the Amorrhites: for his mercy endureth for ever. 20 And Og king of Basan: for his mercy endureth for ever.
21 And he gave their land for an inheritance: for his mercy endureth for ever.
22 For an inheritance to his servant Israel: for his mercy endureth for ever.
23 For he was mindful of us in our affliction: for his mercy endureth for ever.
24 And he redeemed us from our enemies: for his mercy endureth for ever.
25 Who giveth food to all flesh: for his mercy endureth for ever.
26 Give glory to the God of heaven: for his mercy endureth for ever. 27 Give glory to the Lord of lords: for his mercy endureth for ever.

 

[lak611]

Not to mention drunk Saturday night with their other Catholic buddies and in church the next morning to repent. Which begs the question, if one sins with the intent on asking for forgiveness the next morning, is the repentance genuine?

No, if someone intends to sin and then go to confession afterwards, he is guilty of another sin, the sin of presumption. The fact that we have confession is NOT a free pass to sin.

 

[Eileen_T]

Matt 6:7 * And when you are praying, speak not much,** as the heathens**. For they think that in their much speaking they may be heard. *

Jesus didn’t refer to Jewish liturgy as being vain. He was talking about the repetitious prayers of the pagans to their false Gods as being “in vain”. The pagan ‘gods’ had many names and apparently, they had to get the right one that the ‘god’ was using that particular day in order to be ‘heard’. It was very hit and miss, so they used all the terms over and over in their prayers.

Also, they thought that they had a better chance of getting the attention of the gods if they kept repeating their petitions.

Our prayers of petition to God are not repetitive in the sense that we think we need to wear out God’s patience in order to get what we ask. We may be praying for conversion of sinners or for world peace, an end to abortion etc…

No prayer to Almighty God is vain, no matter how often repeated, if it is sincere, for Christ Himself engaged in repetitious prayers in the Garden of Gethsemane.

How many times have we prayed, and prayed for a particular thing, and eventually come to an understanding of why God has not granted that prayer. The parable of the woman who kept coming to the judge, was given to show that we ought not to lose heart when praying.

And finally,* “…pray for one another, that you may be healed. The fervent prayer of a righteous person is very powerful.”* (James 5:16). I think we’d all agree that Mary was righteous!

 

[mercygate]

The slight difference is this is worship, not prayer…perhaps insignificant, but just my observation. Also, I agree, this is a very good use of repetition…Chris Tomlin uses this in one of his songs. It is awesome and…somewhat repetitive!

Give thanks to the Lord
Our God and King
His love endures forever
For He is good, He is above all things
His love endures forever
Sing praise, sing praise
With a mighty hand
and outstretched arm
His love endures forever
For the life that’s been reborn
His love endures forever
Sing praise, sing praise
Sing praise, sing praise

Yeah
Forever God is faithful
Forever God is strong
Forever God is with us
Forever
Forever

From the rising to the setting sun
His love endures forever
By the grace of God
We will carry on
His love endures forever
Sing praise, sing praise
Sing praise, sing praise
Yeah
Forever God is faithful
Forever God is strong
Forever God is with us
Forever
Forever
Forever God is faithful
Forever God is strong
Forever God is with us
Forever
Forever
Forever

His love endures forever
His love endures forever
His love endures forever
Forever
Sing praise, sing praise
Sing praise, sing praise
Yeah
Forever you are faithful
Forever you are strong
Foerver you are with us
Forever
And ever
Yeah

Forever you are faithful
Forever you are strong
Forever you are with us
Forever
Forever
You are God…
Forever
And ever and ever …

In Catholic terms this praise would qualify only as *part *of worship. For us, “worship” in the fullest sense is the Sacrifice of the Mass.

 

[mercygate]

Then you’re hanging out with someone other than me and my Catholic friends.

Don’t assume that the lowest common denominator is the norm…

I disagree, CM. The lowest common denominator may well be the “norm” but it is not the standard, and it is certainly not the goal. What can be said for a prayer like the rosary is that simple people can do it. Without the gift of clever speech, with only the yearning of their hearts, the words of these prayers give voice (almost in ‘sighs too deep for words’) to the inmost longings and love of their hearts.

 

[dingyboatman]

I’ve learned a little as well. and I’m sure I have a lot more to learn. one thing that frustrates me is that I know more about catholocism than most of the catholics I know. which makes me wonder how they can believe so strongly in something they no very little about–less than me even. on the topic of why christians have a problem with concerning catholic doctrines I have hours more objections I hope to have answered. however, one of the biggest problems I’m running into is affirmation of the antecedent. the catholic church claims to carry the authority of the apostles. therefore I keep asking questions on this forum to test whether that claim is true. invariably when I ask a question the answeres range from one or two at most that actually deal with the issue, several that skirt the issue, and a few tirades about me needing to accept the church. if that is the catholic way, that’s one problem I have with the catholic church. a very few answeres have actually shown positive evidence on a logical plain.

 

[mercygate]

Wow…this is eye opening! I had no idea there was any such thing. I am learning that like Protestantism, Catholics have all sorts of flavors, too. So, do you still think all these flavors are still under the umbrella of one “true Church”? Or perhaps you believe like I do that each person, no matter what church they go to, will be judged by God individually. We won’t be wearing signs on our chests that say, “Catholic” or “Baptist” or “Pentecostal”. God will simply judge us according to our faith in Jesus Christ.

The Catholic Charismatic Movement is very large and thriving. I know people who participate in it and who derive great spiritual consolation and power from it.

I would hesitate to acquiesce in the sentiment that it does not “matter what church they go to” because I believe that there is such a thing as truth, that is is reasonably knowable, and that Jesus promised to build one Church, not a plethora of ‘churches’. Nevertheless, the Lord will not stay in the “house” and he is constantly reaching out to bring people closer to God. I do not deny that outside the “house” people do receive gifts and graces in the name of Jesus Christ.

For me, that was not enough. I wanted the whole of it and became Catholic.

 

[jmcrae]

I have never witnessed my Catholic family follow a Christian-like lifestyle and they are almost all very profane.

This makes me wonder what you consider to be a “Christian-like” lifestyle, or a “profane” lifestyle.

Not to mention drunk Saturday night with their other Catholic buddies and in church the next morning to repent.

First, drinking is not a sin. Jesus drank - the Pharisees called Him a drunkard and a glutton. Jesus turned five bathtubs full of water into the finest wine for a wedding.

Second, we go to Confession to repent; not to Church. Confession is usually on Saturday afternoons - if they are partying on Saturday night, perhaps it is from the joy of having been forgiven of all their sins.

Which begs the question, if one sins with the intent on asking for forgiveness the next morning, is the repentance genuine?

No, but even if you are in a state of mortal sin and have not yet been to Confession, you are still required to go to Mass (Church) but not receive Holy Communion. The Catholic Church is a hospital for sinners; not a showcase of Saints.

 

[Teflon93]

I’ve learned a little as well. and I’m sure I have a lot more to learn. one thing that frustrates me is that I know more about catholocism than most of the catholics I know. which makes me wonder how they can believe so strongly in something they no very little about–less than me even. on the topic of why christians have a problem with concerning catholic doctrines I have hours more objections I hope to have answered. however, one of the biggest problems I’m running into is affirmation of the antecedent. the catholic church claims to carry the authority of the apostles. therefore I keep asking questions on this forum to test whether that claim is true. invariably when I ask a question the answeres range from one or two at most that actually deal with the issue, several that skirt the issue, and a few tirades about me needing to accept the church. if that is the catholic way, that’s one problem I have with the catholic church. a very few answeres have actually shown positive evidence on a logical plain.

I know more about Pentecostalism than most of my Pentecostal friends do—does that make me more Pentecostal than they are?

A word of advice—many of the folks here are trained in logic and rhetoric (especially those who were fortunate enough to have a Catholic education, judging by the quality of responses). To claim that you’re not being responded to logically, you need to establish your bona fides via sound, logical reasoning yourself.

The standard certainly seems to be high around here for that, so be careful.

 

[jmcrae]

however, one of the biggest problems I’m running into is affirmation of the antecedent. the catholic church claims to carry the authority of the apostles. therefore I keep asking questions on this forum to test whether that claim is true. invariably when I ask a question the answeres range from one or two at most that actually deal with the issue, several that skirt the issue, and a few tirades about me needing to accept the church. if that is the catholic way, that’s one problem I have with the catholic church. a very few answeres have actually shown positive evidence on a logical plain.

You won’t find serious answers or anything more than “sound bites” on an Internet forum - you have to actually get to a Catholic Church and take some classes.

What you’re trying to do is very similar to someone trying to get a law degree by attending nothing but murder trials, and then complaining that all lawyers ever do is shout at each other and bully the plaintiffs. It’s one aspect, and you do need to consider it, but it’s not the whole thing.

 

[mercygate]

Apparently so…but, man, there sure are a lot of low denominators out there! Hard to overlook them…especially since I’m related to LOTS of them!

Just to boost your perspective, think of some Catholics who might have been at another level of experience: Augustine, Ambrose, Gregory Nazianzen, Basil, Leo the Great, Gregory the Great, John of Damascus, Bernard of Clairvaux, Thomas Aquinas, Bonaventure, Thomas a Kempis, Thomas More (got a Thomas thing goin’ here huh?), Ignatius of Loyola, John Bellarmine, Gregor Mendel, John Henry Newman, GK Chesterton, Hillaire Belloc, Fulton Sheen, Karol Woytyla, Joseph Ratzinger . . .

 

[mercygate]

The red stuff agrees entirely with what I have been saying. Strange that there are 2 or 3 non-c’s on this thread and we have the same experiences. I have never witnessed my Catholic family
follow a Christian-like lifestyle and they are almost all very profane. Not to mention drunk Saturday night with their other Catholic buddies and in church the next morning to repent. Which begs the question, if one sins with the intent on asking for forgiveness the next morning, is the repentance genuine?

I will have to catch up with you guys tomorrow…I have to get ready to go to Bible study

Lyou paint with a broad brush. No: confession is not a ticket to sin. (You KNOW that, don’t you?)

 

[Church_Militant]

I disagree, CM. The lowest common denominator may well be the “norm” but it is not the standard, and it is certainly not the goal.

What can be said for a prayer like the rosary is that simple people can do it. Without the gift of clever speech, with only the yearning of their hearts, the words of these prayers give voice (almost in ‘sighs too deep for words’) to the inmost longings and love of their hearts.I’d have to agree so I stand corrected.

 

[mercygate]

I’ve learned a little as well. and I’m sure I have a lot more to learn. one thing that frustrates me is that I know more about catholocism than most of the catholics I know.

I spent years as a non-Catholic, witnessing the truths of the Catholic faith – to Catholics!

which makes me wonder how they can believe so strongly in something they no very little about–less than me even.

Because they TRUST the teacher.

on the topic of why christians have a problem with concerning catholic doctrines

OK. You’ve been here long enough. Time to stop calling non-Catholics “Christians” as if Catholics are NOT Christians! Man! That really tics us off!

I have hours more objections I hope to have answered.

They will be.

however, one of the biggest problems I’m running into is affirmation of the antecedent. the catholic church claims to carry the authority of the apostles. therefore I keep asking questions on this forum to test whether that claim is true. invariably when I ask a question the answeres range from one or two at most that actually deal with the issue, several that skirt the issue, and a few tirades about me needing to accept the church. if that is the catholic way, that’s one problem I have with the catholic church. a very few answeres have actually shown positive evidence on a logical plain.

Actually, for me, Apostolic succession was the one thing that I had absolutely no trouble with – I was an Episcopalian. If Jesus promised to build a Church, promised to send the Holy Spirit to guide it into all the truth, promised to be with the 11 “for all days” and commanded them to teach an baptize, gave the Apostles the power to forgive sins and sent them “as he was sent”, then how could this be anything but the Catholic Church.

The Catholic Church has the historical link, the doctrinal continuity, the sacramental continuity, and the paper trail.

All that was left was for me to swallow that. Took 30 years. But like Ezekiel’s discovery, the scroll that read lamentation and mourning and woe was sweet as honey in the mouth.

 

[mikijam]

I have never witnessed my Catholic family
follow a Christian-like lifestyle and they are almost all very profane. Not to mention drunk Saturday night with their other Catholic buddies and in church the next morning to repent. Which begs the question, if one sins with the intent on asking for forgiveness the next morning, is the repentance genuine?

I will have to catch up with you guys tomorrow…I have to get ready to go to Bible study

HJP, I probably know just as many Bible-believing Protestants who are racist bigots. We’ve all got weeds among the wheat, and you certainly shouldn’t judge anyone by that. I’ve ofter heard it said that the Church is full of hypocrites and liars. I say I certainly HOPE SO. Where else should those folks be? At the foot of the cross hearing the Word of God is the best place for them.

It sounds like your family has barely a grasp of their faith (or you’re not being charitable). Some pointed (but kind) questions from you might be the very thing to put them on a road to re-discovery. In the end we simply need to encourage each other to be the best Christians we can, IMHO.