SPLIT: How is a Catholic saved?

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David or anyone…

I still did not get an answer to these questions…

Do you believe that, after spending time in purgatory, there is still a chance someone may not spend eternity in heaven?
No chance. Purgatory is the “mud room” of heaven. Once in, the only door out is into heaven.
In other words…David, if you were to make a confession right now where you are of sins known and forgotten, are you 100% sure that you will go to heaven?

if not immediately after your death, do you believe you will after time spent in purgatory?
Answered in a prior post.
Is there anyway possible way you believe that you may not spend eternity in heaven?
Yes.
if yes…How would that be possible?

thank you

God bless

mpjw
Unrepentent mortal sin. So, to make sure this doesn’t happen, everyday I commit myself to loving God and neighbor. Also I regularly participate in the sacraments and pray often.
 
I like your answer. 😉

ok so you as a catholic believe once in purgatory, and after a certain time being purged, Heaven is guaranteed right?

i assume yes

That said, do you believe there are catholic teachings which, if followed, God will definitely not sentence you to hell?
Why are you asking us to sin greviously. In order to answer this one must either presume or dispair.

I think it is a trick question and not very charitable.
 

What exactly is “believing”?

Good question …Pontius Pilate even asked Jesus …what is truth?
Here’s the Catholic definition of faith (or believing, if you prefer):

*Faith is the theological virtue by which we believe in God and believe **all ***that he has said and revealed to us, and that Holy Church proposes for our belief, because he is truth itself. (Catechism of the Catholic Church 1814)

Makes it rather obvious, that when you speak of “faith” and when we Catholics speak of “faith”, we’re not talking about the same thing, are we?

I believe what the bible says in Hebrews 11

1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Incidentally, did **any **of the Apostles, who undoubtedly had faith in Christ, ever say “I am saved?” If anyone had Jesus smack in the centre of their lives (quite literally, in person), they did.

no… but salvation is mentioned…

here is 1 of many

To give knowledge of salvation to His people By the remission of their sins,Luke 1:77

Instead, St Paul for instance, writes that he might actually be disqualified from heaven! He writes that he’s working out his salvation with fear and trembling! Whoa, what was that all about? He certainly didn’t sound like he shared your surefire confidence about the outcome of **his **life, did he?

Paul also writes in Romans…

Romans 4:16
Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be** guaranteed **to all Abraham’s offspring—not only to those who are of the law but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham. He is the father of us all.

in verse 13…

It was not through law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith.

Do **you **fear? Do **you **tremble? Do you **await **with hope the final verdict on **your **life? If so, how come you keep commenting again and again on this thread that you’re **already **100% sure of getting into heaven?
of course I fear and tremble for the fact that God wants to save a wrench like me.

I do not deserve to be in the presence of almighty God for eternity. My human mind can not comprehend how it is possible.

And I am sue that is what was going through Paul’s mind too.

Even in His time of human doubt and fear, God speaks the truth through him as he is talking to his son Timothy…

Timothy 3:13-15
13 But evil men and impostors will grow worse and worse, deceiving and being deceived. 14 But you must continue in the things which you have** learned and been assured of,** knowing from whom you have learned them, 15 and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you** wise for salvation **through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

no doubt their my friend

God bless
 
I would not presume to judge you but I will give you the advice that if you have deliberately separated yourself from the Catholic Church and the sacraments it administers, you have also deliberately separated yourself from Christ, who put these in place. That is not a position I would like to be in if I were you.
Wow, Paul, do you actually believe that being the way I am right now, I separated myself from Jesus?

If that is true, then do yu also believe that I better come back to the catholic church because if I died right now, I would die separated from God and probably be sentenced to hell for eternity…Is that what you honestly believe?
 
I’m sorry dude. I meant that for mpjw2, not you. I quoted the wrong post.
crawling away embarrassed now
Righto!
One Hail Mary for my wretched soul and one for your loved ones, OK?
😃

BTW mpjw2 appears to be an ex Catholic with a lot of sincere questions. I think most of us who’ve been responding to him/her believe that he/she was only ever poorly catechized. So you heavyweights go easy on him/her and look the other way a bit, OK?
 
Righto!
One Hail Mary for my wretched soul and one for your loved ones, OK?
😃

BTW mpjw2 appears to be an ex Catholic with a lot of sincere questions. I think most of us who’ve been responding to him/her believe that he/she was only ever poorly catechized. So you heavyweights go easy on him/her and look the other way a bit, OK?
After you have been on internet forums for a while you learn how to…shall we say…indentify certain personalities (dang, I should run for office). It’s kind of like the old gunfighter who just wants to drink in the saloon, and some green kid keeps buggin’ him, as if he (or she) is gonna be the one to take him down. 😃
 
Originally Posted by JustaServant
BTW, just so you know. You are coming dangerously close to breaking forum rules (which you agreed to when you clicked ‘I accept’) on proselytizing Catholics.
JustaServant…

this is a discussion forum and I am trying to figure out as to what catholics actually believe about salvation?

I posted a traanscript which i probably should not have…it was brought to my attention and I apologized for it…I have yet to hear a response acknowleging my apology 😦

besides posting the transcript, I am sorry if you feel I am breaking the forum rules…please let me know how I am so I can stop doing what you believe I am doing wrong .

thank you
 
Originally Posted by JustaServant

JustaServant…

this is a discussion forum and I am trying to figure out as to what catholics actually believe about salvation?

I posted a traanscript which i probably should not have…it was brought to my attention and I apologized for it…I have yet to hear a response acknowleging my apology 😦

besides posting the transcript, I am sorry if you feel I am breaking the forum rules…please let me know how I am so I can stop doing what you believe I am doing wrong .

thank you
I can’t read the rules of the forum for you, you have to do that yourself.
 
Let me ask you then fxcc, do you sell all you have and then give to the poor?

I will let you know I do not either…I hope you are not suggesting that to those who do not sell their possesions and then give to the poor cannot gain eternal life.

If that were true, only a few people will gain heaven 🤷:
Indeed, maybe only a few will! Only God knows that.

The underlying lesson in this exhortation of Jesus to “sell all and give it away” is obviously charity. Or better still, “love in action”, which is a wonderful definition of God Himself, if you ask me. And make no mistake, each of us **has **to be remade in His image and likeness (that was deformed in us by sin) before we can be taken up into the divine life of The Holy Trinity in heaven. If Jesus could give His life for us, if the Father would let His only begotten Son be murdered for us, yes, we **can **give away our possessions (or even our miserable lives) for others - that’s the point that Jesus is so forcefully making when He makes this exceptional demand.

I don’t think any mature Christian would suggest that God insists that we give away everything we have and beg on the streets in abject poverty (although some saints have indeed done that, like St Francis of Assisi famously). However, it is equally true that “worshipping” mammon, which often comprises of slavish attachment to material possessions and wealth (as we see so often in this increasingly materialistic world of ours today) is very contrary to the Gospel, wouldn’t you agree? My Franciscan friends have often told me that it is OK to own necessary things but never OK to “be owned” by them. That’s when they become false gods to us. There’s an old proverb “The surest guide to your spirituality is the size of your wardrobe!” 🙂 I reckon there’s so much truth in that!

Seriously though, how much each of do for others, whether by alms giving or other forms of charity, relative to our own individual circumstances and abilities, only God can judge. And most times, we ourselves can judge, if we’re truly honest with ourselves. Wouldn’t it be so wonderful if God said to us in heaven, “When I was in need, my son, you even sold all you had and gave it to me!”?

So, at the risk of repeating myself, this is precisely why we need all the help we can get to be “perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect.” No way any man, woman or child can do that without very special, supernatural help! Nevertheless, if this was an impossible task, God wouldn’t ask it of us. With the help of God’s grace then, particularly in the sacraments He has provided for our assistance, we can do all things, “in Him who strengthens us”. If we don’t believe this (that we can be transformed gradually into a new man, indeed into little Christs, by His grace), how can we ever hope to love our enemies or do good to those who hate us? You know, to terrorists and the like.
 
Wow, Paul, do you actually believe that being the way I am right now, I separated myself from Jesus?

If that is true, then do yu also believe that I better come back to the catholic church because if I died right now, I would die separated from God and probably be sentenced to hell for eternity…Is that what you honestly believe?
I am not qualified to judge you but it is very obvious that you have separated yourself from the Catholic Church , which is the body of Christ. Do you deny this?
 
I am not qualified to judge you but it is very obvious that you have separated yourself from the Catholic Church , which is the body of Christ. Do you deny this?
excellent question …

I do not believe I separated myself away from Jesus Christ

I have separated myself from the Catholic Church with no desire to return

I do not believe the Catholic Church is the body of Christ

The body of Christ is made up of all the church believers in Him, inclusive of the Catholic Church

We all have an important role in witnessing and winning souls to Jesus Christ
 
excellent question …

I do not believe I separated myself away from Jesus Christ

I have separated myself from the Catholic Church with no desire to return

I do not believe the Catholic Church is the body of Christ

The body of Christ is made up of all the church believers in Him, inclusive of the Catholic Church
How is it that you don’t believe that the Church is the Body of Christ?
40.png
CCC:
521 Christ enables us to live in him all that he himself lived, and he lives it in us. "By his Incarnation, he, the Son of God, has in a certain way united himself with each man."193 We are called only to become one with him, for he enables us as the members of his Body to share in what he lived for us in his flesh as our model:
We must continue to accomplish in ourselves the stages of Jesus’ life and his mysteries and often to beg him to perfect and realize them in us and in his whole Church. . . For it is the plan of the Son of God to make us and the whole Church partake in his mysteries and to extend them to and continue them in us and in his whole Church. This is his plan for fulfilling his mysteries in us.194
Jesus institute a Church, built on Peter and the apostles.
We all have an important role in witnessing and winning souls to Jesus Christ
Agreed.
 
excellent question …

I do not believe I separated myself away from Jesus Christ

I have separated myself from the Catholic Church with no desire to return

I do not believe the Catholic Church is the body of Christ

The body of Christ is made up of all the church believers in Him, inclusive of the Catholic Church

We all have an important role in witnessing and winning souls to Jesus Christ
mpjw, I’ll put you in the same boat as the billion Muslims out there when it’s time for your judgment. Since you’re outside the Church, only invincible ignorance will help your case. However, that is left for God to decide.
 
mpjw, I’ll put you in the same boat as the billion Muslims out there when it’s time for your judgment. Since you’re outside the Church, only invincible ignorance will help your case. However, that is left for God to decide.
english please … I do not understand
 
How is it that you don’t believe that the Church is the Body of Christ?

**as I stated…

The body of Christ is made up of all the church believers in Him, inclusive of the Catholic Church, the baptists, lutherans, presbyterians, protestants, etc

the catholic church is just one part of Christs’ church body

not included are the buddhist, muslims, atheists, hindus, jews for they have no belief in Jesus Christ for who He is. **

Jesus institute a Church, built on Peter and the apostles.

**You believe this I do not.

Peter is not the rock Jesus was referrring to in scripture.

consider why I do not believe, you need a solid foundation to build upon.

No human being except Jesus is solid all truth.

Peter was definitely not solid…he denied Jesus three times 😦 when confronted with telling truth**

Agreed.
I am glad to see we agree on something 👍
 
I can’t read the rules of the forum for you, you have to do that yourself.
I read the rules JustaServant…I am asking you to post a message something to the effect of …

mpjw …because you said “_________________________________________”

I feel you are close to breaking the rules.

Ths way I can understand better what you are referring to …ok?
 
Indeed, maybe only a few will! Only God knows that.

The underlying lesson in this exhortation of Jesus to “sell all and give it away” is obviously charity. Or better still, “love in action”, which is a wonderful definition of God Himself, if you ask me. And make no mistake, each of us **has **to be remade in His image and likeness (that was deformed in us by sin) before we can be taken up into the divine life of The Holy Trinity in heaven. If Jesus could give His life for us, if the Father would let His only begotten Son be murdered for us, yes, we **can **give away our possessions (or even our miserable lives) for others - that’s the point that Jesus is so forcefully making when He makes this exceptional demand.

I don’t think any mature Christian would suggest that God insists that we give away everything we have and beg on the streets in abject poverty (although some saints have indeed done that, like St Francis of Assisi famously). However, it is equally true that “worshipping” mammon, which often comprises of slavish attachment to material possessions and wealth (as we see so often in this increasingly materialistic world of ours today) is very contrary to the Gospel, wouldn’t you agree? My Franciscan friends have often told me that it is OK to own necessary things but never OK to “be owned” by them. That’s when they become false gods to us. There’s an old proverb “The surest guide to your spirituality is the size of your wardrobe!” 🙂 I reckon there’s so much truth in that!

Seriously though, how much each of do for others, whether by alms giving or other forms of charity, relative to our own individual circumstances and abilities, only God can judge. And most times, we ourselves can judge, if we’re truly honest with ourselves. Wouldn’t it be so wonderful if God said to us in heaven, “When I was in need, my son, you even sold all you had and gave it to me!”?

So, at the risk of repeating myself, this is precisely why we need all the help we can get to be “perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect.” No way any man, woman or child can do that without very special, supernatural help! Nevertheless, if this was an impossible task, God wouldn’t ask it of us. With the help of God’s grace then, particularly in the sacraments He has provided for our assistance, we can do all things, “in Him who strengthens us”. If we don’t believe this (that we can be transformed gradually into a new man, indeed into little Christs, by His grace), how can we ever hope to love our enemies or do good to those who hate us? You know, to terrorists and the like.
fxcc …I completely agree with everything you said

especially the last two statements. Isnt that what living in Christ is all about?..
we can be transformed gradually into a new man, indeed into little Christs, by His grace
and then to go on and say …
how can we ever hope to love our enemies or do good to those who hate us? You know, to terrorists and the like
beautiful…I believe what you just said is our main mission in life …

God bless you

mpjw
 
as I stated…

The body of Christ is made up of all the church believers in Him, inclusive of the Catholic Church, the baptists, lutherans, presbyterians, protestants, etc

the catholic church is just one part of Christs’ church body

not included are the buddhist, muslims, atheists, hindus, jews for they have no belief in Jesus Christ for who He is.
OK. But why do you state that? What are your reasons?

The Catholic Church is in possesion of the fulness of Truth. All those not Catholic who are validly baptised are joined to her, though imperfectly.
You believe this I do not.

Peter is not the rock Jesus was referrring to in scripture.

consider why I do not believe, you need a solid foundation to build upon.

No human being except Jesus is solid all truth.

Peter was definitely not solid…he denied Jesus three times 😦 when confronted with telling truth
Why must it be either/or? Why not both/and?
I am glad to see we agree on something 👍
 
BTW mpjw2 appears to be an ex Catholic with a lot of sincere questions. I think most of us who’ve been responding to him/her believe that he/she was only ever poorly catechized. So you heavyweights go easy on him/her and look the other way a bit, OK?
fxcc

thank you for your concern:)

i am a him and dont worry about going easy on me…give me your best shot all

With Godly love of course 👍
 
excellent question …

I do not believe I separated myself away from Jesus Christ

I have separated myself from the Catholic Church with no desire to return

I do not believe the Catholic Church is the body of Christ

The body of Christ is made up of all the church believers in Him, inclusive of the Catholic Church

We all have an important role in witnessing and winning souls to Jesus Christ
I’m sure you don’t believe you separated yourself from Jesus Christ when you broke from his church, but that doesn’t mean you are right.

Let’s investigate the concept of the Body of Christ for a while.

St. Paul came up with the concept of the Body of Christ to describe how the Church had to work together like a body for the common good and that every member of the church is important. Here is his discourse from 1Corinthians 12:

12 As a body is one though it has many parts, and all the parts of the body, though many, are one body, so also Christ.
13 For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, slaves or free persons, and we were all given to drink of one Spirit.
14 Now the body is not a single part, but many.
15 If a foot should say, “Because I am not a hand I do not belong to the body,” it does not for this reason belong any less to the body.
16 Or if an ear should say, “Because I am not an eye I do not belong to the body,” it does not for this reason belong any less to the body.
17 If the whole body were an eye, where would the hearing be? If the whole body were hearing, where would the sense of smell be?
18 But as it is, God placed the parts, each one of them, in the body as he intended.
19 If they were all one part, where would the body be?
20 But as it is, there are many parts, yet one body.
21 The eye cannot say to the hand, “I do not need you,” nor again the head to the feet, “I do not need you.”
22 Indeed, the parts of the body that seem to be weaker are all the more necessary,
23 and those parts of the body that we consider less honorable we surround with greater honor, and our less presentable parts are treated with greater propriety,
24 whereas our more presentable parts do not need this. But God has so constructed the body as to give greater honor to a part that is without it,
25 so that there may be no division in the body, but that the parts may have the same concern for one another. 26 If (one) part suffers, all the parts suffer with it; if one part is honored, all the parts share its joy.
27 Now you are Christ’s body, and individually parts of it.
28 Some people God has designated in the church to be, first, apostles; 6 second, prophets; third, teachers; then, mighty deeds; then, gifts of healing, assistance, administration, and varieties of tongues.
29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work mighty deeds?
30 Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues? Do all interpret?

This is what he says in Ephesians 4:
1 I, then, a prisoner for the Lord, urge you to live in a manner worthy of the call you have received,
2 with all humility and gentleness, with patience, bearing with one another through love,
3 striving to preserve the unity of the spirit through the bond of peace:
4 one body and one Spirit, as you were also called to the one hope of your call;
5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism;
6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.
7 But grace was given to each of us according to the measure of Christ’s gift.
8 Therefore, it says: “He ascended on high and took prisoners captive; he gave gifts to men.”
9 What does “he ascended” mean except that he also descended into the lower (regions) of the earth?
10 The one who descended is also the one who ascended far above all the heavens, that he might fill all things.
11 And he gave some as apostles, others as prophets, others as evangelists, others as pastors and teachers,
12 to equip the holy ones for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ,
13 until we all attain to the unity of faith and knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the extent of the full stature of Christ,
14 so that we may no longer be infants, tossed by waves and swept along by every wind of teaching arising from human trickery, from their cunning in the interests of deceitful scheming.
15 Rather, living the truth in love, we should grow in every way into him who is the head, Christ,
16 from whom the whole body, joined and held together by every supporting ligament, with the proper functioning of each part, brings about the body’s growth and builds itself up in love.

So whereas St Paul clearly preached the Body of Christ as one Church unified in purpose by the head, Jesus Christ, you are claiming that you can leave the body and still be a part of it. This makes no logical sense. You have been greatly decieved if you believe that you are still a member of the Body that you have in fact left and are in the process of trying to tear down by trying to convince others to leave
 
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