SPLIT: Human conscience is inviolate?

[fix]

“There is no salvation outside of the church” sounds quite specific and final. And then come the exceptions which seem to contradict the dictate.- “Quote”

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
“there is no salvation outside of the church” implies that there is salvation outside of the Church,…………thanks to the exceptions.
“Every rule has an exception” and the catholic manual must be having many exceptions, so how can all the rules and regulations apply to ANY OR all cases despotically/absolutely; there should be any number of legitimate exceptional cases, that they may not apply to, or just will not.

Anyone saved is saved through the Catholic Church. That has always been Church teaching. No one can be saved apart from the Church. Still true.

As to the CCC it is not a moral theology textbook. I am not sure what you are looking for.

 

[fix]

do you not subscribe to Christ’s own words: go into the world and preach the good news to the ends of the earth, are you sure that he excluded all the members of the Church, save the few leaders, who controlled the Church, without knowing the meaning of the Church, from this MISSION?

I have no idea what your point is? Can you explain more please.

Are you sure that you do not know that we all are members of the Mystical Body of Christ, and the Body of Christ, is incomplete, without that one member?

That does not mean there is no visible head on earth.

As Bl. Mother Theresa said to this effect: each drop of water makes the ocean and the ocean will not be full, but for that drop…(from memory)

Ok?

 

[Rudy_Baga]

Tis not really a question of rules. But of truth. Can something be misunderstood by someone? Certainly. Have Christians sinned? Yes. Did Judas the Apostle betray our Lord? yes. But such does not change of course the teaching authority of the Church given by Christ.

Yes of course deeper understanding is important – faith seeking understanding. Hence too the reason to go and read the Catechism and the article I posted above. et al.

To understand that the Church does not mean Y by “outside the Church there is not salvation” but means X. Etc

I’ll go and read the article and see if it adds context to the teaching. Thanks.

 

[Rudy_Baga]

If one thinks their use of reason is better than the Church then one does not believe Christ is the authority behind His Church, right?

And of course, you use your reasoning to assume that my statements imply that I think that my reasoning is better than the church. That alone supports both of our positions. Your reasoning is incorrect in this case. My position is that humans are prone to error, including some happenings in the church through history. Has every pope been a model christian? Has every act of the church reflected the pure will of God? But questions only bear in effort to make a position understood. I do not intend to appear as if I am attacking the church.

Back to the point, your comment above seems to imply that we are not to question the church at all. Even though we are instructed to “test all things and keep the good”, 1 Thessalonians 5:21. So is it more proper to follow this teaching or to accept the teaching of the church on her authority without question? The very fact that the church teaches implies that the authors of all church documents have put each to the test and reasoned them according to the faith. Are we not allowed to understand that reasoning if it helps us to embrace and practice the teaching? Isn’t apologetics basically a reasoned explanation to refute incompatible teachings? Likewise, if I were writing the church documents, would you not want to test them according to your faith? If God did not want us to use our powers of reasoning, why did he give see fit to give them to us. Automatons would have made the universe so much simpler, but of what value is that?

I believe that every person has a path to God. If mine requires me to have a better understanding in order to be the best Catholic that I can be, then I will seek to understand. How easy it would be to mislead those who will blindly follow without question? Can blind followers truly delve into the depths of the mysteries of the church teachings.

Please understand that these discussions are as much to challenge myself as to find the reasonable answers. Sometimes they may seem offensive or out of context. That is not my intention.

 

[fix]

And of course, you use your reasoning to assume that my statements imply that I think that my reasoning is better than the church. That alone supports both of our positions.

No it does not. The Church does not say one should not reason, in fact, She says the opposite. My point is that Catholics already have reasoned that Christ is the autrhority behind His Church. If you want to discuss how that is done that would be a separate thread.

Once Catholics have reasoned this then it makes no sense to claim one is right and Christ is wrong.

Your reasoning is incorrect in this case. My position is that humans are prone to error, including some happenings in the church through history. Has every pope been a model christian? Has every act of the church reflected the pure will of God? But questions only bear in effort to make a position understood. I do not intend to appear as if I am attacking the church.

But you ask the wrong questions here. The issue is not that humans err or that every pope has been good. The issue is that the teachings on faith and morals are protected from error by our Lord. It is not about personal holiness.

Back to the point, your comment above seems to imply that we are not to question the church at all.

It depends on the issue. If one is questions to gain a deeper understanding that is great. If one is nurturing doubt under the guise of question that is a different matter.

Even though we are instructed to “test all things and keep the good”, 1 Thessalonians 5:21. So is it more proper to follow this teaching or to accept the teaching of the church on her authority without question? The very fact that the church teaches implies that the authors of all church documents have put each to the test and reasoned them according to the faith. Are we not allowed to understand that reasoning if it helps us to embrace and practice the teaching? Isn’t apologetics basically a reasoned explanation to refute incompatible teachings? Likewise, if I were writing the church documents, would you not want to test them according to your faith? If God did not want us to use our powers of reasoning, why did he give see fit to give them to us. Automatons would have made the universe so much simpler, but of what value is that?

I believe that every person has a path to God. If mine requires me to have a better understanding in order to be the best Catholic that I can be, then I will seek to understand. How easy it would be to mislead those who will blindly follow without question? Can blind followers truly delve into the depths of the mysteries of the church teachings.

Please understand that these discussions are as much to challenge myself as to find the reasonable answers. Sometimes they may seem offensive or out of context. That is not my intention.

The measure of humility is obedience. If you ask me is it better to accept first and seek understanding second I would say yes without question. Is that blind faith, no?

When Jesus explained we must eat His flesh many “thought for themselves” and left Him. It is not about eliminating reason. It is about submssion to Christ. Reason and faith go together.

Fulton Sheen said that faith is to reason as a telescope is to the eye. We reason better when we accept Christ.

 

[fix]

Have you read FIDES ET RATIO ?

This has given rise to different forms of agnosticism and relativism which have led philosophical research to lose its way in the shifting sands of widespread scepticism. Recent times have seen the rise to prominence of various doctrines which tend to devalue even the truths which had been judged certain. A legitimate plurality of positions has yielded to an undifferentiated pluralism, based upon the assumption that all positions are equally valid, which is one of today’s most widespread symptoms of the lack of confidence in truth. Even certain conceptions of life coming from the East betray this lack of confidence, denying truth its exclusive character and assuming that truth reveals itself equally in different doctrines, even if they contradict one another. On this understanding, everything is reduced to opinion; and there is a sense of being adrift. While, on the one hand, philosophical thinking has succeeded in coming closer to the reality of human life and its forms of expression, it has also tended to pursue issues—existential, hermeneutical or linguistic—which ignore the radical question of the truth about personal existence, about being and about God. Hence we see among the men and women of our time, and not just in some philosophers, attitudes of widespread distrust of the human being’s great capacity for knowledge. With a false modesty, people rest content with partial and provisional truths, no longer seeking to ask radical questions about the meaning and ultimate foundation of human, personal and social existence. In short, the hope that philosophy might be able to provide definitive answers to these questions has dwindled.

 

[wisedom]

I have no idea what your point is? Can you explain more please.

That does not mean there is no visible head on earth.

Ok?

we have to use our discernment to determine whether that head is standing on his head or not…
for me CHRIST is the VISIBLE VISIBLE VISIBLE HEAD…
my journey thro’ this site convinces me that there is a lot of falsehood emanating from the paid staff…
and i now believe that salvation is possible only through CHRIST… and i am a CHRISTIAN and shall have recourse to or welcome all that is christian…

 

[wisedom]

the fact that you have deleted a post of mine on another topic/thread cofirms that all is not well with the so called head(s) that constitute the church, treating with contempt the heart of the Church which is the Body of the Church and dearest to CHRIST.

AS REGARDS EVIL

is it not possible even for a moment, that there is evil in the magisteriam, that is conspicuous…
by its absence?

if you, the paid staff cannot answer my question because of your lack of wisdom, there is no justification for deleting a post from a christian, whose belief is founded on THE WORD OF GOD, who is Jesus Christ, and whose interpretation of that WORD, is with the aid of the Holy Spirit, which God has poured upon all men especially in these last days, and they will be able to discern Truth from untruth.

JUST ALLOW THE POST TO SEE THE LIGHT OF DAY SO THOSE MEMBERS WHO HAVE AN IOTA OF WISDOM, IF ANY, WOULD REPLY TO IT.

 

[Bookcat]

we have to use our discernment to determine whether that head is standing on his head or not…
for me CHRIST is the VISIBLE VISIBLE VISIBLE HEAD…
my journey thro’ this site convinces me that there is a lot of falsehood emanating from the paid staff…
and i now believe that salvation is possible only through CHRIST… and i am a CHRISTIAN and shall have recourse to or welcome all that is christian…

Jesus Christ is the Way the Truth and the Life. He is the Logos (Word)…he is the Son of God and Risen Lord!

It is* Jesus Christ* who founded the Church and who gave Peter and his successors the authority to bind and loose …and who gave the other Apostles and their successors their authority …it is he who gave the mission to teach all nations etc.

It is Christ who created the VISIBLE Church. This is his idea. His way. We are CHRISTIANS .

The Holy Spirit continues to guide the Church as Christ is proclaimed to the ends of the earth.

Praised be Jesus Christ now and forever!

(PS we love and recognize as brothers the various other Christians …and work for the healing of the various difficulties and divisions that exist among Christians so we can all be in full communion)

 

[wisedom]

Jesus Christ is the Way the Truth and the Life. He is the Logos (Word)…he is the Son of God and Risen Lord!

It is* Jesus Christ* who founded the Church and who gave Peter and his successors the authority to bind and loose …and who gave the other Apostles and their successors their authority …it is he who gave the mission to teach all nations etc.

It is Christ who created the VISIBLE Church. This is his idea. His way. We are CHRISTIANS .

The Holy Spirit continues to guide the Church as Christ is proclaimed to the ends of the earth.

Praised be Jesus Christ now and forever!

++++++++++++++++++

your excellency
if you are a bishop, i am a pawn?..(from chess)

stop repeating yourself your honour, as if you are bereft of WISDOM!

We are the APOSTLES OF CHRIST (THE LAITY) AND WE HAVE THE DUTY TO PURIFY THE CHURCH WHEN THE HEAD IS TOTTERING ON ITS HEAD!
CATECHISM IS TO BE LIMITED TO THE AGE OF 16 ie compulsory catechism

you are required to learn from the laity in the same way the latter learns from the magisteriam, that is hardly infallible, considering the grave sins committed by some of the popes, who were unfaithful to their high calling…and are now languishing in hell, as Dantes, i think, painted…ie one of his paintings showed just that!
Christ is the visible head of the Church for those who are able to see him in their Hearts

so as the paid staff kindly stop brainwashing AND hood-winking the respected members of this site, believing that they could be more right than you and your accomplices…

AND FOR GOD’S SAKE DO NOT DELETE ANY POST BY THIS WRITER, WHO IS FIRMLY WEDDED TO THE WORD OF GOD.
dont answer it if your lack of wisdom does not allow you to

WE DO NOT APPRECIATE CHEAP STEREOTYPED ANSWERS DISHED OUT IN AN ARROGANT STYLE BY YOUR THICK HEADED AND THICK SKINNED STAFF.

 

[Bookcat]

Peace be with you. Your ideas are and your approach are not going down the right path. I have been providing answers as requested. But there does not seem to be a desire for a discussion but rather to go down a different path.

You have some misconceptions not only about the topic but about this site too.

This site is not commented on by any paid staff.

Moderators there are --but they are not participants they moderate only.

And I would suggest a reading of the forum rules.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=116150

forums.catholic-questions.org/forumdisplay.php?f=91

I wish you peace --but I do not desire to go down this path here.

 

[Bookcat]

STAFF.

Peace be with you. Your ideas are and your approach are – not going down the right path. I have been providing answers as requested. But there does not seem to be a desire for a discussion but rather to go down a different path.

You have some misconceptions not only about the topic but about this site too.

This site is not commented on by any paid staff.

Moderators there are --but they are not participants they moderate only.

And I would suggest a reading of the forum rules.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=116150

forums.catholic-questions.org/forumdisplay.php?f=91

I wish you peace --but I do not desire to go down this path here.

 

[wisedom]

Peace be with you. Your ideas are and your approach are – not going down the right path. I have been providing answers as requested. But there does not seem to be a desire for a discussion but rather to go down a different path.

You have some misconceptions not only about the topic but about this site too.

This site is not commented on by any paid staff.

Moderators there are --but they are not participants they moderate only.

And I would suggest a reading of the forum rules.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=116150

forums.catholic-questions.org/forumdisplay.php?f=91

I wish you peace --but I do not desire to go down this path here.

your majesty

if you are a king, i am a pawn?..as in chess

you affirm peace and you wage war?

i appreciate the messages of some like rudy, tsk…, etc and do not those of you & co…

i look for the wheat and you look for the weed…in a message too

i am not able to understand a message to the word, but i am able to comprehend the spirit of the message, as in the SPIRIT of the Law!

as Jesus says: ’ be as cunning as the serpent and/but as innocent as the dove’— I agree with this wholeheartedly, for JESUS is my way!

 

[fix]

we have to use our discernment to determine whether that head is standing on his head or not…
for me CHRIST is the VISIBLE VISIBLE VISIBLE HEAD…
my journey thro’ this site convinces me that there is a lot of falsehood emanating from the paid staff…
and i now believe that salvation is possible only through CHRIST… and i am a CHRISTIAN and shall have recourse to or welcome all that is christian…

Belief precedes, enables understanding of Christ’s message, Pope tells audience

 

[Bookcat]

Peace be with you. Your ideas are and your approach are – not going down the right path. I have been providing answers as requested. But there does not seem to be a desire for a discussion but rather to go down a different path.

You have some misconceptions not only about the topic but about this site too.

This site is not commented on by any paid staff.

Moderators there are --but they are not participants they moderate only.

And I would suggest a reading of the forum rules.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=116150

forums.catholic-questions.org/forumdisplay.php?f=91

I wish you peace --but I do not desire to go down this path here.

 

[MaureenSprohge]

I always go with the Magisterium - whether I agree or not - no matter what my conscience might be ‘pushing’ me toward. It is called obedience. I have seen the hierarchy within my own parish use moral relativism repeatedly. Well, if I think it is okay - then it is. Isn’t that what we are saying here? I have seen - almost without exception - people who will justify their sin and swear that God willed a situation - such as adultery. Someone close to me said, “But I just know God meant us to be together.” At the abortion clinic while sidewalk counselling… “I know Christ led me and my daughter here to have this abortion.” Our conscience is not infallible. I am not going to miss heaven because I had the audacity to think my conscience knows better than the Catholic Church. Even if I think the Church ‘could’ be mistaken in, say, a small area, I am going to still stand with the Church. What is bound on earth “IS” bound in heaven. I will confess even if I don’t think something is grave. I realize each situation is unique and there are many variables which God is aware of - but when in doubt, go with the Church. Holy Mother Church will protect us. And when we do make a choce based on a unique situation that is ‘different’ than what the Church teaches, we can always bring it up in Confession. Again, I have been booed out of a Catholic Bible Study for saying that I think obedience (lack of) is the problem with the Catholics who are contracepting (going with their conscience of course), aborting (“Jesus led me here”), voting for pro-choice candidates, etc. One wrong move leads to another and pretty soon we are doing whatever we want. The Church is like the dog leash that keeps us from running out into the street and getting run over. Forgive me for my passion, but this is critical to EVERYTHING going on today. It wasn’t until reading Humanae Vitae that I finally got it about contraception. In my uninformed mind, I thought ‘what was the difference between - say - a condom - and Natural Family Planning.’ After reading our Pope’s beautiful encyclical, I could clearly see my error - even though my conscience didn’t. There are so many wonderful writings in the Church’s treasure chest. I think that going deep in the history of the Church and the traditions and writings, is what helps our conscience make the right choice when unsure. God bless everyone for caring enough to be on this site. Let us pray for one another… Through Mary, I’m just trying to do better than I did in my earlier, ‘uninformed’ years - that’s all.

 

[CopticChristian]

your majesty

if you are a king, i am a pawn?..as in chess

you affirm peace and you wage war?

i appreciate the messages of some like rudy, tsk…, etc and do not those of you & co…

i look for the wheat and you look for the weed…in a message too

i am not able to understand a message to the word, but i am able to comprehend the spirit of the message, as in the SPIRIT of the Law!

as Jesus says: ’ be as cunning as the serpent and/but as innocent as the dove’— I agree with this wholeheartedly, for JESUS is my way!

Wisedom,

Dominic, you are an enigma. I have read all your posts. Here are the first two…

I am indeed glad to have found this forum just now and firmly believe that I would benefit immensely from the info. from Catholics world-wide…

GOD BLESS US ALL

To me all christians are indeed one, being members of the mystical body of Christ…Nowadays the Catholic Church is more universal in its approach, building bridges with members of all religions; she is more mature, understanding, and the like.
One of the main allegations made by protestants is the role of our Blessed Mother in Catholicism; the comparison of her to an egg-shell that has to be discarded, is abominable

I am impressed by the fact or truth, that she is the ARK OF THE NEW COVENANT, and is holy by reason of her having carried GOD-INCARNATE, within her womb- indeed from her womb to his tomb for the Redemption al all humanity.

Since these two posts you have attacked

The Papacy
The Magesterium
The Catechism
Inferred you were once Catholic
Suggested you are saved
Denied the sacrament of reconciliation
Stated that Masturbation is not sin
declared that those that deviate from the Church are guided by the Holy Spirit
Commented extensively on sexual sins in the Church

You allude to the Word of God and say this is Jesus and quote Scripture periodically…you postings lately have been less than concrete and have appeared over time to become Proselytizing to a point of view…

I see no evidence that you have asked any question and in particular I see nowhere that you have provided evidence of your first post that you would benefit from Catholic information as you appear to be playing badmitton with each piece of information, tossing the shuttlecock back with negative comments.

Is there some information you are looking for?

May I ask, were you once Catholic?

 

[MaureenSprohge]

You summed it up well. Isn’t this a site for like-minded Catholics to discuss things together and help each other out - not to be put down as well as have to read put-downs about the Papacy and everything else we hold dear in our hearts - in other words, this isn’t a site where we have to be an apologetic, correct? He has gone totally off topic. I hope the administrators of this site knock those people off, so we can get on with what this site was created for. I am really sick of my Catholic Church being cut down - and especially having Scripture used against us. The Magisterium is the final interpreter of Scripture - not us. Moderators, please get him off of this site, so we can continue as you had intended this site to be.

 

[wisedom]

You summed it up well. Isn’t this a site for like-minded Catholics to discuss things together and help each other out - not to be put down as well as have to read put-downs about the Papacy and everything else we hold dear in our hearts - in other words, this isn’t a site where we have to be an apologetic, correct? He has gone totally off topic. I hope the administrators of this site knock those people off, so we can get on with what this site was created for. I am really sick of my Catholic Church being cut down - and especially having Scripture used against us. The Magisterium is the final interpreter of Scripture - not us. Moderators, please get him off of this site, so we can continue as you had intended this site to be.

if this site is meant only for catholics, then you should automatically delete my id…

i had requested the management earlier to delete my id rather than to ban me, for the innocence of proclaiming the TRUTH as i see it…

Truth if alien to religion, makes the latter a bane of humanity!

Jesus did not found any religion, He is LOVE, and is the Way to our creator…

Christianity is not to follow any religion (rules & regulations), but to personally FOLLOW the path of LOVE, that Jesus walked!

i wish you all success in getting me off of this site…‘good riddance to TRUTH’! ?

“TRUTH IS OFTEN ECLIPSED BUT IT CAN NEVER BE EXTINGUISHED” - Livy.

Concluded…!

 

[CopticChristian]

if this site is meant only for catholics, then you should automatically delete my id…

i had requested the management earlier to delete my id rather than to ban me, for the innocence of proclaiming the TRUTH as i see it…

Truth if alien to religion, makes the latter a bane of humanity!

Jesus did not found any religion, He is LOVE, and is the Way to our creator…

Christianity is not to follow any religion (rules & regulations), but to personally FOLLOW the path of LOVE, that Jesus walked!

i wish you all success in getting me off of this site…‘good riddance to TRUTH’! ?

“TRUTH IS OFTEN ECLIPSED BUT IT CAN NEVER BE EXTINGUISHED” - Livy.

Concluded…!

Dominic,

Here is your perspective. You believe you have truth. You want others to see that truth. There can not be many truths. Some of what you say is true and some is not.