Split: If you are addicted, is it a sin?

[johnnyjones]

Johnny,

You can think and believe anything you like. If believing the AA paradigm that requires you to wear the Scarlet Letter, to believe that you are your behavior, that you are what you are and will never be anything else…if that keeps you from drink and you are without drink…it works for you…Ok…

however

There are people that don’t believe that and don’t drink…whatever works.

Leave the rest is what I said and that includes the big “scarlet letter”. There is no denying the tools of AA help. It’s just a matter of what extent you want to give yourself over to it. It’s less difficult while sitting back in ones easy chair and say AA is a destroyer of the human will while forgeting those who are just coming out of the throws of addiction needing desperately to hold onto some degree of help. AA has been a spritual pathway to the God of ones upbringing, and for many Christ is that true God.

Don’t forget the people who have used AA as a stepping stone to the truth. The Catholic Church provides housing for AA meetings.

 

[johnnyjones]

Johnny,

Dictionaries have words defined by usage. What is a habit? Something you do routinely, pretty clear. What is an addiction? A habit that you do routinely with the proviso that it interferes with your life to cause you to have negative consequences.

So drinking may be a habit. Drinking everday after work may be a habit. Drinking everyday and not coming home, losing your car keys, getting arrested causes that habit to become a problem, etc…Ok…

This is a new one, questioning the authority of the Websters dictionary. Listen, ask yourself one question, which one of those definitions applies the word “enslaved”.
If your trying to tell me a habit is an addiction, your wrong. First take it up with Websters than ask the guy who’s been on Xanax for a year why he can’t stop his “habit” after you just hid his pills for a day. Taking the pills was routine, a habit. The physical aspect IS the addiction.

 

[CopticChristian]

This is a new one, questioning the authority of the Websters dictionary. Listen, ask yourself one question, which one of those definitions applies the word “enslaved”.
If your trying to tell me a habit is an addiction, your wrong. First take it up with Websters than ask the guy who’s been on Xanax for a year why he can’t stop his “habit” after you just hid his pills for a day. Taking the pills was routine, a habit. The physical aspect IS the addiction.

Johnny,

here is a new one for you…

Go to any big city that has a library…look up the word Christian in the oldest Dictionary you can find…I did this in San Diego…

Then look at Dictionaries of recent times. here is what you will find…

Christian…oldest Dictionary…Roman Catholic

later Dictionaries

Christian…those that believe in the bible and follow the teachings of the Bible…

Protestant definitions are now the norm and were not the norm…so which is correct…

If you are a slave to the dictionary…then good for you…I am not…

that is a new one for you…

 

[johnnyjones]

Johnny,

here is a new one for you…

Go to any big city that has a library…look up the word Christian in the oldest Dictionary you can find…I did this in San Diego…

Then look at Dictionaries of recent times. here is what you will find…

Christian…oldest Dictionary…Roman Catholic

later Dictionaries

Christian…those that believe in the bible and follow the teachings of the Bible…

Protestant definitions are now the norm and were not the norm…so which is correct…

If you are a slave to the dictionary…then good for you…I am not…

that is a new one for you…

What are you telling me? Dictionary meanings change? That’s an acceptable point. I’m using a current 2012 dictionary. If we put the vernacular meaning of words aside, what do we use to get a correct meaning of a word?

 

[CopticChristian]

What are you telling me? Dictionary meanings change? That’s an acceptable point. I’m using a current 2012 dictionary. If we put the vernacular meaning of words aside, what do we use to get a correct meaning of a word?

Johnny,

This is a relevant point and you have made progress. I am not looking for perfection, just progress.

What do you mean by that?

This question will help you and me get to the bottom of what everyone is saying.

Dictionaries and definitions help us write, not talk. When writing we say something and explain it. Check anything you write. People are always saying…"when I say that, I mean…

When you speak, people should say…how are you using that term? What do you mean by that?

Words mean different things to different people and as such we are not people of the book, we are people of meaning.

Have you not seen the dialogue between Protestants and Catholics when it comes to “born again” what do you mean by that is always the question…as it means different things to different people and it is not from the dictionary we get our information, but by asking…what do you mean by that…

one man’s sin is another man/s folley…what does that mean? You understand…

 

[yukonbrad]

Not meaning to point fingers but there seems to be an incredible lack of knowledge about addiction here. Has anyone here actually been addicted please raise your hand - mine is allready up (recovering alcoholic, 8 years sober on Oct 15).

 

[johnnyjones]

Johnny,

This is a relevant point and you have made progress. I am not looking for perfection, just progress.

What do you mean by that?

This question will help you and me get to the bottom of what everyone is saying.

Dictionaries and definitions help us write, not talk. When writing we say something and explain it. Check anything you write. People are always saying…"when I say that, I mean…

When you speak, people should say…how are you using that term? What do you mean by that?

Words mean different things to different people and as such we are not people of the book, we are people of meaning.

Have you not seen the dialogue between Protestants and Catholics when it comes to “born again” what do you mean by that is always the question…as it means different things to different people and it is not from the dictionary we get our information, but by asking…what do you mean by that…

one man’s sin is another man/s folley…what does that mean? You understand…

I don’t disagree with much of what you are saying about the usage of words. So much so that it makes my point. The term is addicted to drugs, not habit-ed to drugs. Do most clinics tell their clients to stop their “bad habit” of drinking or taking drugs? No they don’t. They have an addiction that they must overcome.

Years ago many would say smoking is a bad habit. Today hardcore smokers are recognized as having an addiction. That is why nicotine coping treatments are given, because of the addictive quality to that substance. Certain drugs are “habit forming”. The habit that is formed becomes an addiction. Many words are similar but are different with nuance. Such is the case with these two words.

Do YOU understand now?

 

[CopticChristian]

Not meaning to point fingers but there seems to be an incredible lack of knowledge about addiction here. Has anyone here actually been addicted please raise your hand - mine is allready up (recovering alcoholic, 8 years sober on Oct 15).

Yukun,

Congratulations you are in the thick of the paradigm.

I have treated Cancer, AIDS, Tuberculosis, Gonorrhea, Syphillis and many other sundry diseases that are real diseases and never had one of them. I would venture to say that I know about as much about them if not more than any of those that I treated.

Want to rethink this?

 

[CopticChristian]

I don’t disagree with much of what you are saying about the usage of words. So much so that it makes my point. The term is addicted to drugs, not habit-ed to drugs. Do most clinics tell their clients to stop their “bad habit” of drinking or taking drugs? No they don’t. They have an addiction that they must overcome.

Years ago many would say smoking is a bad habit. Today hardcore smokers are recognized as having an addiction. That is why nicotine coping treatments are given, because of the addictive quality to that substance. Certain drugs are “habit forming”. The habit that is formed becomes an addiction. Many words are similar but are different with nuance. Such is the case with these two words.

Do YOU understand now?

Johnny,

This is espousing the massage of the message and acceptance of something that I believe is not true. You don’t have to go to a clinic to stop any of the addictions. Some believe that they do but if you look back at my post…17

Brief interventions
Motivational enhancement
Community Reinforcement
Self-change manual (Bibliotherapy)
Behavioral self-control training

Excluding the use of medication none of these involve the use of a Clinic and they are at the top of the succesful methods of dealing with an addiction and none of them imply that it is a disease or needs a clinic.

Stanton Peele, PhD, The Truth About Addiction

The Experience of Addiction

The question is: “If addiction isn’t a disease, then what is it?” An addiction is a habitual response and a source of gratification or security. It is a way of coping with internal feelings and external pressures that provides the addict with predictable gratifications, but that has concomitant costs. Eventually these costs may outweigh the subjective benefits the addiction offers the individual. Nonetheless, people continue their addictions as long as they believe the addictions continue to do something for them. It is important to place addictive habits in their proper context, as part of people’s lives, their personalities, their relationships, their environments, their perspectives. The effort to change an addiction will generally affect all these other facets of a person’s life as well.

An addiction may involve any attachment or sensation that grows to such proportions that it damages a person’s life. Addictions, no matter to what, follow certain common patterns. We first made clear in Love and Addiction that addiction—the single-minded grasping of a magic-seeming object or involvement; the loss of control, perspective, and priorities—is not limited to drug and alcohol addictions. When a person becomes addicted, it is not to a chemical but to an experience.

 

[clem456]

Yukun,

Congratulations you are in the thick of the paradigm.

I have treated Cancer, AIDS, Tuberculosis, Gonorrhea, Syphillis and many other sundry diseases that are real diseases and never had one of them. ** I would venture to say that I know about as much about them if not more than any of those that I treated.**

?

Ok fine, but respecfully, your posts indicate that you are not knowlegeable about addiction and 12 step. No problem, but I just don’t understand why you are arguing with people who have some expertise in the area. You’re going on argiung semantics rather than listening.

 

[cranster]

What I find very interesting is that you could be debating on the Alcoholism Support group I belong to who refuse to admit powerlessness because it would then involve a power greater than themselves to relieve them of their alcoholism.

If you’re not an alcoholic, you have no idea what an alcoholic goes through. Only God was able to lift the obsession to drink. There was NO way I could do it on willpower alone. Took surrender for me.

Anyone who lives with this condition either sober or as an active alcoholic/user knows from experience that this is a life long disease from which there is no cure. Remission is possible by the help of God for most people through working a 12 step program. Stop working the steps, and a relapse is usually a given.

It is always interesting listening to someone pontificate about this from the outside. It’s no different than a veteran listening to someone talk about combat who hasn’t experienced combat.

I don’t care what you call it, when you got it, you can’t stop through willpower alone… Period.

 

[johnnyjones]

Johnny,

This is espousing the massage of the message and acceptance of something that I believe is not true. You don’t have to go to a clinic to stop any of the addictions. Some believe that they do but if you look back at my post…17

Brief interventions
Motivational enhancement
Community Reinforcement
Self-change manual (Bibliotherapy)
Behavioral self-control training

Excluding the use of medication none of these involve the use of a Clinic and they are at the top of the succesful methods of dealing with an addiction and none of them imply that it is a disease or needs a clinic.

Stanton Peele, PhD, The Truth About Addiction

My friend, I am very familiar with the disease versus sin debate. I was heavily involved in AA for 8 years, numerous rehabs and various Christian healing or coping style approaches to alcoholism. We really weren’t dicussing that though. We disagreed on the words habit and addiction. I know your philosophy is to use the word habit in a non clinical setting so that it supports your usage of the word. For all the people you site that would say an addition is a habit, there are literally thousands I could site that would say otherwise.

You say one doesn’t have to go to a clinic to stop. I agree that many clinics are a big processing center that rehashes the same mentality over and over but people go because some people just don’t know what else to do. Many just get told they have a “disease” after a DUI and play around for years with less culpability. There really is a word called “addiction” and it is different than a habit on a case by case basis. Some guy who gets drunk on the weekends may have a habit of doing that. The man who has been drinking since 14 and is now 30 may well have an addiction that needs treatment.

I could make the argument that the numbers lean more towards addiction than habit. The NT is written in Greek and the majority say that John 1:1 reads the word was God where as JWs believe it to read the word was A God. Sometimes the majority usage is a good reference point.

 

[CopticChristian]

Ok fine, but respecfully, your posts indicate that you are not knowlegeable about addiction and 12 step. No problem, but I just don’t understand why you are arguing with people who have some expertise in the area. You’re going on argiung semantics rather than listening.

Clem,

Where am I arguing. I am presenting factual information.

I know more about the 12 steps than I care to know. What is it you believe I don’t know.

What is you believe I am not knoweldgeable about?

What is you want me to listen to?

I reject the 12 steps, I reject Dispensationalism, I reject confessing with your lips and believing with your heart is a source of salvation. Why do you believe that if I reject something that it is argument?

 

[CopticChristian]

Anyone who lives with this condition either sober or as an active **alcoholic/**user knows from experience that this is a life long disease from which there is no cure. Remission is possible by the help of God for most people through working a 12 step program. Stop working the steps, and a relapse is usually a given.

It is always interesting listening to someone pontificate about this from the outside. It’s no different than a veteran listening to someone talk about combat who hasn’t experienced combat.

I don’t care what you call it, when you got it, you can’t stop through willpower alone… Period.

Cranster,

Alcholics with a life long disease for which there is no cure working through the 12 steps as a possible means of help…

This is the 12 step paradigm that you accept, I reject, I am not alone in this rejection. Believe it if you wish, it is true for you but not necessarily true. There are alternatives and the disease model is not universally accepted. You accept it I do. You can stop by willpower alone and to say that is anathema to a 12 stepper, because that is the party line that you learned in the paradigm. Believe it if you wish, it is just not true although it is true for you and all that accept this paradigm.

 

[CopticChristian]

My friend, I am very familiar with the disease versus sin debate. I was heavily involved in AA for 8 years, numerous rehabs and various Christian healing or coping style approaches to alcoholism. We really weren’t dicussing that though. We disagreed on the words habit and addiction. I know your philosophy is to use the word habit in a non clinical setting so that it supports your usage of the word. For all the people you site that would say an addition is a habit, there are literally thousands I could site that would say otherwise.

You say one doesn’t have to go to a clinic to stop. I agree that many clinics are a big processing center that rehashes the same mentality over and over but people go because some people just don’t know what else to do. Many just get told they have a “disease” after a DUI and play around for years with less culpability. There really is a word called “addiction” and it is different than a habit on a case by case basis. Some guy who gets drunk on the weekends may have a habit of doing that. The man who has been drinking since 14 and is now 30 may well have an addiction that needs treatment.

I could make the argument that the numbers lean more towards addiction than habit. The NT is written in Greek and the majority say that John 1:1 reads the word was God where as JWs believe it to read the word was A God. Sometimes the majority usage is a good reference point.

Johnny,

Now that we are friends. You believe in the disease model and I do not. It is typical for anyone that opposes the disease model to be attacked by those that accept it. I understand that.

Addiction however you choose to view it is a sin. If you believe it is a disease then the downside of that paradigm that I have seen is release of culpability because “I have this disease, it is not my fault, what do you expect…I have a disease…it can’t be cured…”

If you know your AA history, I do, then you should know that Bill Wilson when asked if alcoholism was a disease said this…

Bill W.: We have never called alcoholism a disease because, technically speaking, it is not a disease entity.

So then you should look and find out where this notion of alcholism as a disease commenced because that is not what Bill Wilson said. I am not going to go looking for you either, since you are all experts in AA and the disease model, you look for yourself as to when and how the notion of “disease” was created and massaged into the brain for acceptance, and by whom. It did not come out of AA.

 

[CopticChristian]

Anyone who lives with this condition either sober or as an active alcoholic/user knows from experience that this is a life long disease from which there is no cure. Remission is possible by the help of God for most people through working a 12 step program. Stop working the steps, and a relapse is usually a given.

It is always interesting listening to someone pontificate about this from the outside. It’s no different than a veteran listening to someone talk about combat who hasn’t experienced combat.

I don’t care what you call it, when you got it, you can’t stop through willpower alone… Period.

Cranster,

While investigating, studying, experiencing, I learned that there is no published data to support that AA/12 steps has a better than 10% success rate or the equivalent of doing nothing. I suggest you investigate the literature to prove that there is any study that supports the notion that AA/12 steps has a proven track record of succes…

In 1990, American Health magazine published a study that finally told the public just that. 1 According to a Gallup Poll of a cross-section of the American population, people are about ten times as likely to change on their own as with the help of doctors, therapists, or self-help groups. Among the survey’s surprising findings were these:

Professional help has surprisingly little to do with important life changes, even health-related ones. Doctors helped people change only 3% of the time—while psychologists and psychiatrists, self-help groups and religious counselors got the credit even less often. Support was much more likely to come from friends (14%) parents, children, or siblings (21%), or a spouse, boyfriend or girlfriend (29%). And 30% of the time, people simply did what they had to do on their own, often with striking success.2 In other words, the support that is most crucial comes not from specialized treatments and support groups, but from the people one already knows.

Below is the only place you will find any suggestiong of a success rate based on a population sample of 29. The reality is that the Big Book, first edition, has stories where people “recovered” and those stories were pulled from future editions, because you must always be in “recovery” not recovered. If you want a copy of the first edition, I can tell you where to get it.

„h According to Bill W¡¦s introduction to the stories in the second edition Big Book, of the 29 early members, whose stories appeared in the first edition Big Book, 76% (22 of 29) were sober as of AA¡¦s 20th anniversary (1955).

Seven of the 29 early members (24%) had returned to drinking but subsequently sobered up again;

another seven of the 29 (24%) returned to drinking and did not sober up.

This data appears to be the only population sample explicitly supporting an assertion of the successful 50% + 25% recovery outcome. Its scope would be confined to three groups (Akron, New York and Cleveland) and its population sample (29) would represent around 30% of the original estimate of 100 AA members as of April1939.
:

 

[johnnyjones]

Johnny,

Now that we are friends. You believe in the disease model and I do not. It is typical for anyone that opposes the disease model to be attacked by those that accept it. I understand that.

Addiction however you choose to view it is a sin. If you believe it is a disease then the downside of that paradigm that I have seen is release of culpability because “I have this disease, it is not my fault, what do you expect…I have a disease…it can’t be cured…”

If you know your AA history, I do, then you should know that Bill Wilson when asked if alcoholism was a disease said this…

So then you should look and find out where this notion of alcholism as a disease commenced because that is not what Bill Wilson said. I am not going to go looking for you either, since you are all experts in AA and the disease model, you look for yourself as to when and how the notion of “disease” was created and massaged into the brain for acceptance, and by whom. It did not come out of AA.

I have never said it was a disease. I understand why it is called that though because of the seeming chronic and progressive nature of it. The AMA said at one time “treatment primarily involves not taking a drink”. Drunkenness is a sin, of course. I have continually said that the word disease is thrown around too loosely. This does not negate that addiction is real. I am not debating the sin versus disease model.

I point out facts, and the fact is the disease model is hugely widespread and the word additiction and disease are often intertwined. You, it seem, are saying that a man who has been drinking for twenty years just has a bad habit. It may be a habit that it is done without thought but the chemical also has an addictive quality causing further enslavement, making habit and addiction two separate things.

You chose to quote Bill Wilson to support the non disease model which is accurate. Do you choose to quote him in other areas? In addition I personally could not stand in the later years when people would say they are in recovery and not recovered. I have always said I am recovered from alcoholism as the Big Book often says. Why would you think I wasn’t your friend?

 

[CopticChristian]

I have never said it was a disease. I understand why it is called that though because of the seeming **chronic and progressive **nature of it. The AMA said at one time “treatment primarily involves not taking a drink”. Drunkenness is a sin, of course. I have continually said that the word disease is thrown around too loosely. This does not negate that addiction is real. I am not debating the sin versus disease model.

I point out facts, and the fact is the disease model is hugely widespread and the word additiction and disease are often intertwined. You, it seem, are saying that a man who has been drinking for twenty years just has a bad habit. It may be a habit that it is done without thought but the chemical also has an addictive quality causing further enslavement, making habit and addiction two separate things.

You chose to quote Bill Wilson to support the non disease model which is accurate. Do you choose to quote him in other areas? In addition I personally could not stand in the later years when people would say they are in recovery and not recovered. I have always said I am recovered from alcoholism as the Big Book often says. Why would you think I wasn’t your friend?

Johnny,

My friend. I do not believe that the AMA speaks for all physicians. I never joined and I will not join. The APA as you know has been taken over by Homosexuals that took the notion of Homosexualilty out of the DSM as a disorder. I don’t have to accept or believe anything that the AMA or APA says because they say so, including sanctioning of the disease model.

To suggest that it is Chronic and Progressive is disease model jargon, although you may not realize it.

Habit, to the point of causing difficulty does not make it a disease. Sin once, sin continually, sin habitually, sin incessantly, the greatest sinner is still a sinner and not diseased. Can you change from being a sinner to being a saint? Well Paul was the least of the saints, least of the Apostles and the greatest of sinners…yet we refer to him as St Paul.

I find it amusing that there is no fact, no data, nothing other than empiricism to support a notion that addiction is a disease. I provide facts and I am said to be arguing.

My investigation of the disease model caused me to experience the same experience that I recalled from those that were trying to convert me to Protestant thinking.

The Bible, what I experienced personally, in study, in group and Church.

The Big Book, what I experienced personally, my meetings, my group and other experiental stuff.

I saw the parallel and if you review every post in this thread by those that accept the disease model you will see what I saw when I was studying this. Tell a Protestant that they are wrong and they resort to the Bible and what they learned in Bible study. Disagree with those that accept the Disease model and you get the same thing. Look back for yourself and see if any facts are offered by those that accept the disease model…

On November 14, 1999 the U.S. Supreme Court refused to overturn, thus allowed to stand, a ruling by the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Second Circuit ordering that forced attendance at Narcotics Anonymous meetings end immediately, because it was a violation of Freedom of Religion.

The disease model is not the only model and to accept the disease model you accept 12 steps/AA. There is no other recourse.

If it is not a disease then it is habit. To accept this is to deny AA/12 steps.

SMART, AVRT, SOS, Moderation Management, Life Process, Brief Intervention, CBT, etc are other ways to address the issue of addiction as habit and not disease. They exist and they work. There are people that have published facts on what works and the reality is that AA is not the most effective and there is information to prove it may do harm.

The US supreme Court designated AA as a religion, this is fact

The disease model is not the ony model. This is fact.

There are other ways to approach addiction as not a disease. This is fact.

The disease model is based on faulty medical science and propogated by advertising. This is fact.

I do find that Protestants now and again with honesty look and find truths…here is what one Protestant group says…

psychoheresy-aware.org/12steps1.html

psychoheresy-aware.org/12steps2.html

I referred to Jesus Christ the Bearer of the Water of Life…

Addiction & Recovery have replaced Sin and Salvation…consistent with this thread…

Step back and ask yourself who is arguing here. All I do is present facts and a differing view, not accepting something someone believes and I am accused of arguing. I am disagreeing with beliefs not facts. I see no such approach from those that accuse of arguing. I am considerate because I know that there are no facts that support the disease model, it is based on a faulty study by a guy named Jellinek, prompted by a guy named Rush…

baldwinresearch.com/alcoholism.cfm

The “recovery” community’s adoption of the disease concept began with an early AA member named Marty Mann. Her efforts, combined with a somewhat dubious scientist named E.M. Jellinek, began national acceptance of the disease concept. It was Jellinek’s self-proclaimed “scientific” study that opened the door for the medical community’s support.

I am not trying to convince anyone of anything other than the fact that what is believed has a counter opinion that is factually supported. Look back. I say, believe it if you wish. I am experienced in this arena of disagreement and understand “denial”…To deny is the catch 22 of the paradigm. I know about that too.

Addiction is a sin…

 

[CopticChristian]

Asking Stanton Peele about addiction is like asking Martin Luther to comment on a Papal election…sure, you will get a loud opinion, but more axe grinding than anything else. His stuff has been discredited for years now…

Frl,

You made a statement that Peele, PhD is tantamount to Martin Luther.

You made a statement that Peele, PhD offers loud opinions and has been discredited.

I ask you for support for this and as yet you provided none.

Addiction is a sin.

 

[clem456]

This thread is getting different issues and definitions so confused.

I literally do not know one person who is an alcoholic who stopped drinking without admitting they were powerless over alcohol. Go over to the porn addiction forum and tell me how many porn addicts just quit in the privacy of their own bedrooms, just cause they wanted to. Good luck. An addict is deceiving themselves if they believe they can stop without support, Let’s not confuse addiction with breaking bad lifestyle habits here, that is a different discussion. Addicts will deceive themselvs with the illusion of complete self sufficiency. (And let’s not confuse self sufficiency with responsibility, or culpability).

Does an addict HAVE TO go through an official program to recover? Of course not. There are exceptions to every rule. One of my raging alcoholic friends did not go through 12 step or AA to quit drinking, but I went to his house one afternoon and he was on his knees weeping and clinging to his wife’s knees. This was a guy who considered himself completely self succicient and had “toned down” his drinking many times. His wife told him “Choose. Me or the bottle”. He did recover with his wife’s accountability and the help of a well grounded friend who he called whenever he began to sweat. It most certainly was not his willpower that saved him…he found out he had none.

An addiction (not a habit) is for life. Any alcoholic will tell you they can not take one drink. Ever. I cannot look at porn. Tried many times to “just” take a peek, can’t be done. There is a biological and/or spiritual process going on that corrupts your willpower to stop. And please, again, lets not confuse the lack of willpower issue with lack of culpability in sin. No one here is denying these behaviors are sinful, or structures of sin, that have been chosen by the individual.
And the individual is culpable to whatever degree God knows. Culpability and addiction are not mutually exclusive.

Can addiction be called a disease? Does it really matter? It is not a disease like some of the diseases one of the posters above has experience with. Most diseases are not taken on by choice and do not involve spiritual corruption, so the same experiences do not completely apply to addiction. If the disease model only treats the biology of an addiction, I can see where it would fail.

I think the most important issue is…that any addict reading this is not encouraged to believe his own willpower is sufficient to recover, that THEY are the ones that don’t need 12 step, or rehab, or support group, or a call buddy when they are put to the test. That THEY are the ones that can beat the system without the humiliation of getting down on their knees and admitting impotence. We always want to believe we are the powerful exception to the common wisdom. These programs continually exist for a reason. The impurity addiction support group on this site is the largest one, for a reason. For any addict I know, the only way to recovery is to be driven to your knees in humility and submission to God, (or a higher power, or your 12 step, or your accountability group, or some combination of these). And really, that’s the case with every human being…addicts just have the advantage of knowing how powerless they are. It’s a blessing truly.