Split: If you are addicted, is it a sin?

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CopticChristian said:
Christ,

This comes right out of the AA/12 steps. A program that requires someone to be teachable and humble…to learn the paradigm. This is the paradigm. Yes. You seem to have it down pat…

Addiction is a sin
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And? Your point? Doesn’t the Bible teach us to be humble?
 
Christmastwin said:
And? Your point? Doesn’t the Bible teach us to be humble?
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You’re very good at finger pointing and letting each of us know what we have down pat and what we don’t. You aren’t God. Please stop talking like you are.
 
Christmastwin said:
And? Your point? Doesn’t the Bible teach us to be humble?
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Christmas,

You tell me. In post 116 you quoted facts that I stated and suggested that I should be humble and teachable. Offer the explanation for quoting and your inference as to my lack of humility and need to be teachable in reference to the facts.

addiction remains a sin
 
Christmastwin said:
You’re very good at finger pointing and letting each of us know what we have down pat and what we don’t. You aren’t God. Please stop talking like you are.
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Christmas,

You don’t like disagreement with the accepted 12 steps/AA and you don’t recognize and see what I see. I have read it, I have heard it, I have researched it, I tried to accept it…and from the mouth of a disciple…“this program is about humility and the ability to be teachable”…Ok

addiction remains a sin
 
CopticChristian said:
Stanton Peele, Phd, has a website on addiction and his program is now available online…
at a small fee that is user friendly and does not cost the thousands that rehab cost not to mention the brainwashing.

thelifeprocessprogram.com/
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“small fee” LOLOLOL

Or folks can go to SMART recovery which has a great presence on the web- and it’s FREE.

smartrecovery.org/

Addictions specialists generally have a positive opinion of SMART so if someone is interested in a non-12 step program, please go here- not to this Peele fellow.

AA has helped millions of people but it may not be for everyone.

Moderation is attainable for those who are not truly addicted to alcohol.

For the addicted person- they may try moderation and they will fail. If they are addicted to alcohol their lives WILL get worse. Is it a decease, a habit, a syndrome, a pathology?

I’m not sure that the precise term is so important.
 
CopticChristian said:
Christmas,

You don’t like disagreement with the accepted 12 steps/AA and you don’t recognize and see what I see. I have read it, I have heard it, I have researched it, I tried to accept it…and from the mouth of a disciple…“this program is about humility and the ability to be teachable”…Ok

addiction remains a sin
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I have lived it.
 
ringil said:
“small fee” LOLOLOL

Or folks can go to SMART recovery which has a great presence on the web- and it’s FREE.

smartrecovery.org/

Addictions specialists generally have a positive opinion of SMART so if someone is interested in a non-12 step program, please go here- not to this Peele fellow.

AA has helped millions of people but it may not be for everyone.

Moderation is attainable for those who are not truly addicted to alcohol.

For the addicted person- they may try moderation and they will fail. If they are addicted to alcohol their lives WILL get worse. Is it a decease, a habit, a syndrome, a pathology?

I’m not sure that the precise term is so important.
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Thank you for this post. 🙂
 
ringil said:
“small fee” LOLOLOL

Or folks can go to SMART recovery which has a great presence on the web- and it’s FREE.

smartrecovery.org/

Addictions specialists generally have a positive opinion of SMART so if someone is interested in a non-12 step program, please go here- not to this Peele fellow.

AA has helped millions of people but it may not be for everyone.

Moderation is attainable for those who are not truly addicted to alcohol.

For the addicted person- they may try moderation and they will fail. If they are addicted to alcohol their lives WILL get worse. Is it a decease, a habit, a syndrome, a pathology?

I’m not sure that the precise term is so important.
Click to expand...
Ring,

This is true. SMART is the free program that you can pay for that is AVRT. They are from the same thought process and as I recall SMART broke from AVRT. SMART meetings are not like the AA/12 steps and are not meant to be forever. There is cross talk, focus on tools. I went to those too. I have all their material and studied that too.

smartrecovery.org/

There is also a secular group for recovery. I looked into this as well.

cfiwest.org/sos/intro.htm

Then there is a place for people that just want to cut down on drinking called Moderation Management. I looked into that as well

moderation.org/

I believe that SMART and SOS have online meetings as well and you are correct there are many places to go to that don’t incur the disease notion and do not cost a penny.

Good going.👍

addiction is a sin
 
bbentrup said:
I’ve been lurking on this thread for a couple of days, but I’m glad one of the participants finally said this. Very distracting - it becomes hard to separate the good points from those more contentious and worthy of fuller inquiry.

I think some of the main debaters would do well to define their terms. It’s easy to say addiction vs. sin, habit vs. disease. How do these terms overlap (if at all)? How are they completely dissimilar (if at all)? I’m just wondering if these terms were defined, there might not be a lot more agreement and the conversation could evolve and be more pure.
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You make a good point. It seems that from my experience that addiction can be sin. Sin, because an addiction which is an enslaving repetitive negative action that can harm others or youself would be sin anyway.

I brought up dictionary usage but there was an attempt to shoot it down by a poster. Yes definitions change but we are dealing with vernacular uses here.

A disease by nature is chronic and progressive. Chronic meaning you will always have it and progressive meaning it will get worse. If one feels that can not take a drink or drug again without going into troubling behavior, I think chronic fits. If their usage gets worse over time,. progressive fits. That is the disease “model”.

The problem some are having is the issue of non accountability when the word disease is applied. Alcoholism and drug abuse would be the only disease where you wilfully imbibe a substance making it unique it that sense. Also some say if your told you have a disease, you fall into the “i can’t help it” realm which further fuels the problem.

I will repeat that all individuals respond differently and the severity of the case must be measured accordingly. Acting on an addiction is sinful. Being addicted to morphine because you have cancer is not sinful, but that none the less is an addiction. Pray and take the steps necessary to help yourself, that’s the botom line.
 
CopticChristian said:
addiction is sin
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How is addiction a sin?

Actions are sins or thoughts can be sins- inclinations can’t be sins.

If an addict/problem drinker whatever drinks the sin would likely be venial as the compulsion of the habit or whatever you want to call it lessens the gravity of the sin.

The CCC lays this out specifically regarding certain sins. Force of habit and compulsion reduces the “free will” of the sin.
 
johnnyjones said:
You make a good point. It seems that from my experience that addiction can be sin. Sin, because an addiction which is an enslaving repetitive negative action that can harm others or youself would be sin anyway.

I brought up dictionary usage but there was an attempt to shoot it down by a poster. Yes definitions change but we are dealing with vernacular uses here.

A disease by nature is chronic and progressive. Chronic meaning you will always have it and progressive meaning it will get worse. If one feels that can not take a drink or drug again without going into troubling behavior, I think chronic fits. If their usage gets worse over time,. progressive fits. That is the disease “model”.

The problem some are having is the issue of non accountability when the word disease is applied. Alcoholism and drug abuse would be the only disease where you wilfully imbibe a substance making it unique it that sense. Also some say if your told you have a disease, you fall into the “i can’t help it” realm which further fuels the problem.

I will repeat that all individuals respond differently and the severity of the case must be measured accordingly. Acting on an addiction is sinful. Being addicted to morphine because you have cancer is not sinful, but that none the less is an addiction. Pray and take the steps necessary to help yourself, that’s the botom line.
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Johnny,

You are wrong. A disease is Acute or Chronic. The Chronic progressive “think speak” is 12 step/AA jargon that is part of the disease paradigm. You keep spouting this as if it is true. I take exception to this as false medical information.

You point out “severity”…think about that…

You have cancer mam, is it severe?..no, just a simple biopsy will do…

You have cancer mam, is it severe?..no, a biopsy and some radiation…

You have cancer mam, is it severe?..well it is not good, surgery, radiation and then chemo

You have cancer man, is it severe?..well, surgery, radiation, chemo and then perhaps an experimental drug…

You are an alcoholic of whatever type and the treatment is a one size fits all…no exceptions.

So what does severity have to do with anything medically in the disease model? and How do you define it?

addiction is a sin
 
ringil said:
How is addiction a sin?

Actions are sins or thoughts can be sins- **inclinations can’t be sins. **
If an addict/problem drinker whatever drinks the sin would likely be venial as the compulsion of the habit or whatever you want to call it lessens the gravity of the sin.

The CCC lays this out specifically regarding certain sins. Force of habit and compulsion reduces the “free will” of the sin.
Click to expand...
Ring,

So are you arguing for the “I was born that way” for addicts?
 
CopticChristian said:
Johnny,

Since this all started with LSD and a murder…this can all be tied in, I believe…let’s just say, as it regards the LSD thing…that requires some responsibility…let’s just say that based on what I know and what you experienced…let me ask a few questions…a simple yes or no will do.

Is it fair to say that an addict however you choose to characterize it as disease or habit is at heart a selfish person?

Is it fair to say that as someone comes to understand that addiction that they need to learn personal strength and the weakness that allowed them to slip into addiction?

Is it fair to say that the addict in their selfish delusion has poor relations with self, friends, family and community and that recovery/habit resolution requires to have a better self relationship, better friends, better family relationship and community involvement?

Is it fair to say that addicts value things differently in ther addiction than when in recovery/habit resolution and when those values change they change?

Is it fair to say that addicts as they resolve have a better understanding of what is right and what is wrong?

Is it fair to say that a person in recovery/resolution understands that self control is important?

Is it fair to say that a person in recovery/resolution values health?

Is it fair to say that a person in recovery/resolution improves their self esteem, has better relationships with self, friends, family community and can believe in accomplishment and competence?

Just a simple yes or no or I don’t know would do…

in regards to addiction as a Catholic it is sin.
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If you had an addiction to painkillers but didn’t act on it, it would not be sin. Same with the churches teaching on homosexuality. If you act on the addiction, I don’t dispute that it is a sin. Yes to your questions. I know that you will now say those apply to other sins like adultry or stealing. That’s very possible. What I think you dwell little on is the chemical component side of adddiction. You could have a “mental obsession” as AA says to adultry as well as drinking, but will you need to be hospitalized, detoxed, or suffer physiological problems with adultry, stealing etc? Consequences yes.

There is treatment for those who steal, cheat, gamble, philander if they seek it. I see some of your points and have said I don’t like the word disease because it damages the psyche to an extent for some.
 
johnnyjones said:
If you had an addiction to painkillers but didn’t act on it, it would not be sin. Same with the churches teaching on homosexuality. If you act on the addiction, I don’t dispute that it is a sin. Yes to your questions. I know that you will now say those apply to other sins like adultry or stealing. That’s very possible. What I think you dwell little on is the chemical component side of adddiction. You could have a “mental obsession” as AA says to adultry as well as drinking, but will you need to be hospitalized, detoxed, or suffer physiological problems with adultry, stealing etc? Consequences yes.

There is treatment for those who steal, cheat, gamble, philander if they seek it. I see some of your points and have said I don’t like the word disease because it damages the psyche to an extent for some.
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Johnny,

Just so we are on the same page…

An addict is a selfish person. When they are not in addiction then they have learned personal strength, understand their weaknesses, has better relations with self, friends, family and is involved in community. When the selfish person is not in addiction they value things differently, lets say job, money, family and understand the wrongs done and what needs to be done that is right. The addiction in resolving this selfish life learns to value life, health, accomplishment and competence. This is how they get better.

So, is the above paragraph pretty consistent with whatever you experienced via 12 steps or whatever it took to resolve it…is this a good summary? Just a yes or no or I don’t know will do.
 
CopticChristian said:
Johnny,

You are wrong. A disease is Acute or Chronic. The Chronic progressive “think speak” is 12 step/AA jargon that is part of the disease paradigm. You keep spouting this as if it is true. I take exception to this as false medical information.

You point out “severity”…think about that…

You have cancer mam, is it severe?..no, just a simple biopsy will do…

You have cancer mam, is it severe?..no, a biopsy and some radiation…

You have cancer mam, is it severe?..well it is not good, surgery, radiation and then chemo

You have cancer man, is it severe?..well, surgery, radiation, chemo and then perhaps an experimental drug…

You are an alcoholic of whatever type and the treatment is a one size fits all…no exceptions.

So what does severity have to do with anything medically in the disease model? and How do you define it?

addiction is a sin
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Do you tell a women who is addicted to morphine because of her cancer she is sinning?

I should not have said “by nature” with my last post but my point is chronic means just that and progressive as well. If a person knows that if they take a drink again it will start a pattern, is that not chronic? They have tried over and over and it won’t go away. It’s chronic.
 
CopticChristian said:
Johnny,

Just so we are on the same page…

An addict is a selfish person. When they are not in addiction then they have learned personal strength, understand their weaknesses, has better relations with self, friends, family and is involved in community. When the selfish person is not in addiction they value things differently, lets say job, money, family and understand the wrongs done and what needs to be done that is right. The addiction in resolving this selfish life learns to value life, health, accomplishment and competence. This is how they get better.

So, is the above paragraph pretty consistent with whatever you experienced via 12 steps or whatever it took to resolve it…is this a good summary? Just a yes or no or I don’t know will do.
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I said yes in my prior post, why are you beating this horse?

With all that a person has gained from what you have said if they go back to drinking what will happen? Should they, could they, would they, go back?
 
CopticChristian said:
Ring,

So are you arguing for the “I was born that way” for addicts?
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I am saying that either they were born that way- science hasn’t shown this conclusively but maybe it will. Doesn’t matter.

I am saying that ONCE the compulsion/problem/habit/decease emerges- is made evident through repeated exposure to alcohol- the culpability of sin is reduced.

Same holds true for mental illness and sin. Same holds true for masturbation and sin.

It depends on whether the will has been compromised.
 
johnnyjones said:
You make a good point. It seems that from my experience that addiction can be sin. Sin, because an addiction which is an enslaving repetitive negative action that can harm others or youself would be sin anyway.

I brought up dictionary usage but there was an attempt to shoot it down by a poster. Yes definitions change but we are dealing with vernacular uses here.

A disease by nature is chronic and progressive. Chronic meaning you will always have it and progressive meaning it will get worse. If one feels that can not take a drink or drug again without going into troubling behavior, I think chronic fits. If their usage gets worse over time,. progressive fits. That is the disease “model”.

The problem some are having is the issue of non accountability when the word disease is applied. Alcoholism and drug abuse would be the only disease where you wilfully imbibe a substance making it unique it that sense. Also some say if your told you have a disease, you fall into the “i can’t help it” realm which further fuels the problem.

I will repeat that all individuals respond differently and the severity of the case must be measured accordingly. Acting on an addiction is sinful. Being addicted to morphine because you have cancer is not sinful, but that none the less is an addiction. Pray and take the steps necessary to help yourself, that’s the botom line.
Click to expand...
Thank you, and good post.
 
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