Split: If you are addicted, is it a sin?

[CopticChristian]

My grandparents,mother,most my aunties, sister,myself being addicts. Both my sister and I work in the field of addiction. I attend AA/NA and do CBT courses. There is a totally big difference between those being able to learn to control their drinking and those that cannot.

Acacia,

Your information then is empirical and if you work in the field then you have accepted a paradigm of some sort that you use to address this issue. SMART recovery is CBT based and is the antithesis of AA/NA that is diseased based.

SMART…you are not your behavior/not intended to be lifelong
AA/NA…you are your behavior intended to be lifelong

They are at opposite ends of the spectrum

Moderation mangement is possible for some but not all. The AA/NA is one size fits all.

 

[CopticChristian]

I think it’s because some need to reach rock bottom with whatever their addiction is. Richard Rohr does say that addiction itself is sin and we are ALL addicted to something, even if it’s the mindset of having to be right.

Christ,

This is AA/12 step talk. Some people are high bottom, others are low bottom. To say that you have to hit rock bottom is AA/12 step speak and treats everyone the same. Some people learn from their mistakes and others do not. The disease model treats everyone the same and does not recognize the high bottom people.

I am not sure if you are speaking Fr. Richard Rohr, the contemplative, he is a Rogue Priest and some of his stuff is not to be believed.

I am addicted to the truth and you should be as well…I am the way, the truth and the light…that is what I was taught.

and if it is not true then you should not follow it.

 

[clem456]

Those who treat addictions will often say that you aren’t going to quit unless you really want to quit. Otherwise an addiction would be a life long sentance to loss of will and there would be no ex-drug or alcohol abusers.

Well, ok. Yes you have to want to quit, but wanting to quit is not sufficient for sobriety. Sobriety involves surrendering the “want”, admitting we are powerless and need Christ. Addicts have an advantage in this area over many “normal” people, who never discover the truth that they are powerless without God.

All addictions begin with choices.
Bad choices made repeatedly lead to bad consequences:::

Corrupted consciences and wills, where a person lives in a state of sin and cannot find the way out morally, leading to excuses, rationalizing, a corruption of virtue, broken relationships, shame, despair, isolation.

Physical and emotional dependency and addiction.

I really don’t know how addiction can not be seen as sinful, maybe it’s what the Catechism calls a “structure of sin”. We definitely must choose sin, and everyone has chosen to drink or take drugs or look at porn. Getting addicted does not mean the action is not sinful.

I think the thread is confusing two things:
what is sinful, and whether or not we should pass judgement on those who are addicted, which judgement belongs to God alone.

 

[acacia12]

Acacia,

Your information then is empirical and if you work in the field then you have accepted a paradigm of some sort that you use to address this issue. SMART recovery is CBT based and is the antithesis of AA/NA that is diseased based.

SMART…you are not your behavior/not intended to be lifelong
AA/NA…you are your behavior intended to be lifelong

They are at opposite ends of the spectrum

Moderation mangement is possible for some but not all. The AA/NA is one size fits all.

With CBT, you learn behavioural changes that can help you in the long run. These are practiced day in/day out. In 12-step, you acknowledge that you are powerless over alcohol/drugs once you start using them. It sets off the addiction. Therefore its the acceptance. Once you have stopped you can use the tools of CBT, But that certainly does’nt mean you can drink. Those that only use SMART use the tools for behavioural change, but still recognise they have to remain abstinent

 

[TimothyH]

Sin is always objective. Taking mood altering drugs, drinking to get drunk, looking at pornography are all objectively sins.

When we discuss addiction however, we are not discussing sin but culpablity - how much blame we bear.

Sin is sin. We can’t change that. Addiction lessens culpablity, but it does not mean that sin is not sin.

-Tim-

 

[clem456]

Christ,

This is AA/12 step talk. Some people are high bottom, others are low bottom. To say that you have to hit rock bottom is AA/12 step speak and treats everyone the same. Some people learn from their mistakes and others do not. The disease model treats everyone the same and does not recognize the high bottom people.

I am not sure if you are speaking Fr. Richard Rohr, the contemplative, he is a Rogue Priest and some of his stuff is not to be believed.

I am addicted to the truth and you should be as well…I am the way, the truth and the light…that is what I was taught.

and if it is not true then you should not follow it.

Almost by definition, an addict has to crash to turn around. The will and heart have to be broken and reformed because the addiction is a complete perversion of those. The crash doesn’t manifest itself the same in everyone. Some people lose families, some end up broke, some injured seriously. Some are tortured spiritually but never lose much in the world. That was me. I am reasonably comfortable with a family but crashed nonetheless.

And I would just add that you are oversimplifying the 12 step programs. They have saved many lives for good reason.

 

[acacia12]

Almost by definition, an addict has to crash to turn around. The will and heart have to be broken and reformed because the addiction is a complete perversion of those. The crash doesn’t manifest itself the same in everyone. Some people lose families, some end up broke, some injured seriously. Some are tortured spiritually but never lose much in the world. That was me. I am reasonably comfortable with a family but crashed nonetheless.

And I would just add that you are oversimplifying the 12 step programs. They have saved many lives for good reason.

I am reading “Father Fred and The Twelve Steps” he really says it well

 

[Corki]

Well, ok. Yes you have to want to quit, but wanting to quit is not sufficient for sobriety. Sobriety involves surrendering the “want”, admitting we are powerless and need Christ. Addicts have an advantage in this area over many “normal” people, who never discover the truth that they are powerless without God.

That is a powerful way to recover sobriety but not the only way. Some people go the in-patient route. Once the cycle of addiction is broken they may regain enough of their own free will to resist the temptations that the addiction presents. Some use alternate medication - common with nicotine addiction treatment. There is no **one way **to treat an addiction.

All addictions begin with choices.
Bad choices made repeatedly lead to bad consequences:::

Yes, the Church calls this repeated action a vice.

I really don’t know how addiction can not be seen as sinful, maybe it’s what the Catechism calls a “structure of sin”. We definitely must choose sin, and everyone has chosen to drink or take drugs or look at porn. Getting addicted does not mean the action is not sinful.

As I said at the beginning, even if the addiction results in the loss of the ability to freely consent, that just makes the sin venial rather than mortal.

I think the thread is confusing two things:
what is sinful, and whether or not we should pass judgement on those who are addicted, which judgement belongs to God alone

No, that’s what the other thread was doing. **This **thread is an attempt to discuss the question of whether it is sinful independent of issues of culpability or judgement.

 

[Hypnotoad]

Sin is always objective. Taking mood altering drugs, drinking to get drunk, looking at pornography are all objectively sins.

When we discuss addiction however, we are not discussing sin but culpablity - how much blame we bear.

Sin is sin. We can’t change that. Addiction lessens culpablity, but it does not mean that sin is not sin.

-Tim-

Bingo!

 

[FrIntervention]

CopticChristian,
Your references are about research involving treatment modalities for addiction, not the question of the disease concept itself. For that I suggest you check out Kevin McCauley, M.D. at addictiondoctor.com. Watch his video and you will learn the truth about addiciton.
By your logic, kids with Tourette’s Syndrome don’t have an illness, just a bad habit. They simply should be punished for yelling out the F word in church, right? Of course not. If you look at the science you will see that they suffer from an illness, just as addicts do.Your mistake is juding from behavior, not neurochemistry and spirituality.
BTW, if you think nicotine is the most addictive substance in the world then you have never met a heroin addict…or taken my pharmacology class.

 

[Corki]

CopticChristian,
Your references are about research involving treatment modalities for addiction, not the question of the disease concept itself. For that I suggest you check out Kevin McCauley, M.D. at addictiondoctor.com. Watch his video and you will learn the truth about addiciton.
By your logic, kids with Tourette’s Syndrome don’t have an illness, just a bad habit. They simply should be punished for yelling out the F word in church, right? Of course not. If you look at the science you will see that they suffer from an illness, just as addicts do.Your mistake is juding from behavior, not neurochemistry and spirituality.
BTW, if you think nicotine is the most addictive substance in the world then you have never met a heroin addict…or taken my pharmacology class.

This is completely off-track for the topic of this thread.

 

[Corki]

Corki,

Any habit has ex-habit performers. Name one habit and those that no longer have the habit and they are all ex-habit of whatever.

Nicotine is the most addictive substance on this planet and yet those that smoke and then stop smoking do it of their own volition. Those that quit have a reason to quit and studies show that using drugs, patches, etc are no better than having a reason to stop. Having a reason to quit is the biggest and most common factor in quiting any habit.

The sad part of the swallowing of the “disease model” is that every AA/12 step program and meeting has smokers. If the addiction were treated and if the disease model had any value then why do smokers keep smoking after they stop drinking or using drugs?

I can’t tell if you are agreeing with me or contradicting me.

 

[lerapt78]

Annabelle,

The answer to this is how you view addiction. Tragically much of the public has been brainwashed to believe that it is a disease and it is not.

Well then if it is not a disease.

Stanton Peele, PhD…the truth about addiction.

When you realize that this is nothing more than habit then it is and can be sin.

Well, ok. Yes you have to want to quit, but wanting to quit is not sufficient for sobriety. Sobriety involves surrendering the “want”, admitting we are powerless and need Christ. Addicts have an advantage in this area over many “normal” people, who never discover the truth that they are powerless without God.

All addictions begin with choices.
Bad choices made repeatedly lead to bad consequences:::

Corrupted consciences and wills, where a person lives in a state of sin and cannot find the way out morally, leading to excuses, rationalizing, a corruption of virtue, broken relationships, shame, despair, isolation.

Physical and emotional dependency and addiction.

I really don’t know how addiction can not be seen as sinful, maybe it’s what the Catechism calls a “structure of sin”. We definitely must choose sin, and everyone has chosen to drink or take drugs or look at porn. Getting addicted does not mean the action is not sinful.

I think the thread is confusing two things:
what is sinful, and whether or not we should pass judgement on those who are addicted, which judgement belongs to God alone.

I don’t know the official church teaching on your question, OP, but I tend to agree with these statements.

 

[asd72]

Corki,

Any habit has ex-habit performers. Name one habit and those that no longer have the habit and they are all ex-habit of whatever.

Nicotine is the most addictive substance on this planet and yet those that smoke and then stop smoking do it of their own volition. Those that quit have a reason to quit and studies show that using drugs, patches, etc are no better than having a reason to stop. Having a reason to quit is the biggest and most common factor in quiting any habit.

The sad part of the swallowing of the “disease model” is that every AA/12 step program and meeting has smokers. If the addiction were treated and if the disease model had any value then why do smokers keep smoking after they stop drinking or using drugs?

There is often a tendancy to replace one addiction with another, or one addiction intensifies when another is given up. I have had this happen with food and cigarette addiction myself.

 

[acacia12]

There is often a tendancy to replace one addiction with another, or one addiction intensifies when another is given up. I have had this happen with food and cigarette addiction myself.

I’ve seen this happen with say, cocaine addicts swap ther addiction with alcohol. Heroin, then methodone with top up of street drugs and prescription drugs. Alcohol switch to prescription drugs and over the counter drugs. The list goes on…

 

[CopticChristian]

Well, ok. Yes you have to want to quit, but wanting to quit is not sufficient for sobriety. Sobriety involves surrendering the “want”, admitting we are powerless and need Christ. Addicts have an advantage in this area over many “normal” people, who never discover the truth that they are powerless without God.

All addictions begin with choices.
Bad choices made repeatedly lead to bad consequences:::

Corrupted consciences and wills, where a person lives in a state of sin and cannot find the way out morally, leading to excuses, rationalizing, a corruption of virtue, broken relationships, shame, despair, isolation.

Physical and emotional dependency and addiction.

I really don’t know how addiction can not be seen as sinful, maybe it’s what the Catechism calls a “structure of sin”. We definitely must choose sin, and everyone has chosen to drink or take drugs or look at porn. Getting addicted does not mean the action is not sinful.

I think the thread is confusing two things:
what is sinful, and whether or not we should pass judgement on those who are addicted, which judgement belongs to God alone.

Clem,

This is thoughtful and pretty much the way it is.

 

[CopticChristian]

With CBT, you learn behavioural changes that can help you in the long run. These are practiced day in/day out. In 12-step, you acknowledge that you are powerless over alcohol/drugs once you start using them. It sets off the addiction. Therefore its the acceptance. Once you have stopped you can use the tools of CBT, But that certainly does’nt mean you can drink. Those that only use SMART use the tools for behavioural change, but still recognise they have to remain abstinent

Acacia,

I understand. I want you to understand that I approached the 12 steps/AA with the intention of learning it to help someone. It is kind of like Scott Hahn studying Catholicism to see that it was wrong.

I studied this stuff and realized lots. I understand the notion of powerless and the 12 steps/AA disease model denies moderation.

The reality is that people stop drinking all the time without believing that they are powerless…

The idea of addiction as inevitably a lifetime burden is a myth. How do we know? Because the American government tells us so. In a massive study carried out by the government’s National Institute on Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism (NIAAA) in which 43,000 Americans were interviewed, only one in ten alcoholics entered AA or rehab. 1 Yet three-quarters of people who were ever alcoholic had achieved stable recovery. The bottom line: three-quarters of those in recovery achieved this state on their own, or at least without some official recovery agency carrying them over the finish line.

Stanton Peele, PhD. Life Process Program

Robert Redford was a drunk artist in Paris, stopped drinking without any institution and became an actor. Bing Crosby, called Binge Crosby when he was drinking, stopped drinking on his own because it did not fit his personna. Rod Stewart early in life said drink was the most important thing in his life and as he got older said " well I was younger than, Chidlren are the most important thing in my life"

Arrowsmith came together as a band. What is the likelyhood that people from different walks of life got togehter formed a band, got a disease, went to rehab and stopped drinking. It is a social cultural habit and not a disease.

 

[CopticChristian]

Almost by definition, an addict has to crash to turn around. The will and heart have to be broken and reformed because the addiction is a complete perversion of those. The crash doesn’t manifest itself the same in everyone. Some people lose families, some end up broke, some injured seriously. Some are tortured spiritually but never lose much in the world. That was me. I am reasonably comfortable with a family but crashed nonetheless.

And I would just add that you are oversimplifying the 12 step programs. They have saved many lives for good reason.

Clem,

You watch too much TV. There are varying stages of addiction and stopping.

Life Trajectories

Obviously, although the great majority of people temper their drinking with age, some do not. Some continue drinking at high levels, and a very small but extremely disturbing minority escalate their drinking and literally destroy themselves. Here are some typical phases of problem drinking and of maturing out:

**Early maturing out. **Here a person stops drinking excessively as an ordinary part of growing into adulthood, as soon as he or she develops a sufficient foothold in life. We described earlier how Robert Redford, as a young, unsuccessful art student in Paris, began drinking to the point of hallucinating. These hallucinations frightened Redford so much that he returned home, became involved with a woman, resumed his studies, and discovered acting as his primary career interest. Redford’s intense drinking period had been precipitated by his sense of isolation and failure and disappeared with his maturing into a more successful role in life.

**Mid-career maturing out. **Here the drinker brings his or her drinking into line with a growing sense of security and responsibility that comes with career accomplishment and stable family life. Bing Crosby, who left his binge drinking behind as he came to live in a glow of public adulation, fits this pattern. Rod Stewart also described this process to a television interviewer when the interviewer reminded Stewart he had once said the most important things in life were “soccer, drinking, women—in that order.” Stewart blushed and replied, “I said that a long time ago. Now children are the most important thing in my life.”

Late-emerging addiction. Although most problem drinkers move in a positive direction, a few go the other way. This can occur when people’s careers go off track and their early promise dissipates. Such reversal is not uncommon in the entertainment and sports worlds. Al Hodge, TV’s Captain Video, died alone and destitute in a rundown hotel. His wife had left him years earlier when he became severely alcoholic after being unable to find work. Ringo Starr drifted into chronic and worsening alcoholism after his fame as a Beatle receded. Violinist Eugene Fodor found that winning a prestigious Moscow competition didn’t guarantee a successful concert career, and fifteen years later his drug problems led to his arrest. We need always to remember that many more people become alcoholics because of failure than because of success.

Late maturing out. For a person who experiences crisis, decline, or escalating problems, two outcomes are possible: late maturation or persistent addiction.
Persistent addiction.

First, there are those who are too socially isolated and economically and educationally disadvantaged to develop a productive orientation to life. These are Skid Row or other street alcoholics, whose alcoholism is marked by greater and greater separation from ordinary life satisfaction and success.

Second, there are those whose subjective experience is so painful that they require regular alcohol intoxication to make their lives tolerable. People like this (such as Richard Burton36) have deep seated emotional problems for which they never find a solution and for which alcohol offers a costly palliation. They desperately seek artificial sensations of contentment and personal adequacy through alcohol, even when they experience the personal or professional successes that enable other people to outgrow alcoholism.

Stanton Peele, PhD, The Truth About Addiction
Some hit rock bottom, some just mature out of it.

 

[CopticChristian]

That is a powerful way to recover sobriety but not the only way. Some people go the in-patient route. Once the cycle of addiction is broken they may regain enough of their own free will to resist the temptations that the addiction presents. Some use alternate medication - common with nicotine addiction treatment. There is no **one way **to treat an addiction.

Yes, the Church calls this repeated action a vice.

As I said at the beginning, even if the addiction results in the loss of the ability to freely consent, that just makes the sin venial rather than mortal.

No, that’s what the other thread was doing. **This **thread is an attempt to discuss the question of whether it is sinful independent of issues of culpability or judgement.

Corki,

You are correct that there is no one way. The problem is that if you accept the disease model then if it is a disease it removes culpability as the end result. This man made paradigm as all man made paradigms backfires because the individual can absolve themselves from the sin and say “I can’t help this I have a disease”

Never been a disease, never was a disease, never will be a disease.

 

[CopticChristian]

CopticChristian,
Your references are about research involving treatment modalities for addiction, not the question of the disease concept itself. For that I suggest you check out Kevin McCauley, M.D. at addictiondoctor.com. Watch his video and you will learn the truth about addiciton.
By your logic, kids with Tourette’s Syndrome don’t have an illness, just a bad habit. They simply should be punished for yelling out the F word in church, right? Of course not. If you look at the science you will see that they suffer from an illness, just as addicts do.Your mistake is juding from behavior, not neurochemistry and spirituality.
BTW, if you think nicotine is the most addictive substance in the world then you have never met a heroin addict…or taken my pharmacology class.

Frl,

I checked Kevin…he is a 12 step/AA disciple. I have had my fill of this stuff.

Tourette’s has nothing to do with choice and addiction.

You want to believe in a disease. Ok

What kind of disease?

A spiritual disease? Say what. Yup a spritual disease. Do yourself a favor and google diseases for which there is no cure and Addiction/alcolohism do not show up.

nytimes.com/1987/03/29/magazine/nicotine-harder-to-kickthan-heroin.html?pagewanted=all&src=pm

‘‘Heroin addicts say it is easier to give up dope than it is to give up smoking,’’ says Dr. Sharon Hall, a psychology professor whose research at the University of California’s San Francisco medical school centers on methods of curtailing drug abuse.

ehow.com/about_5150696_addictive-drug.html

What Is the Most Addictive Drug?

The most addictive drug is nicotine. When you think of drug addiction, you think of a user with a rolled-up sleeve, sweating profusely, trying to find the best vein to inject his drug into. The most addictive drug is commonly found and one that we are all familiar with. Nicotine is present in cigarettes, cigars, pipes and chewing tobacco. Nicotine is a component of tobacco and is sold over the counter in drug stores, grocery stores and big box stores.

www1.umn.edu/perio/tobacco/nicaddct.html

Tobacco is as addictive as heroin (as a mood & behavior altering agent).

Yes I have seen and treated addicts of all types. I recall sitting at the bedside of alcoholics going through withdrawal pumping valium, IV, 10 mg at a time to calm them downs.

Heroin addicts, Barb Addicts, yup seen them all…Tobacco/Nicotine is the most addictive substance on the planet.

In consideration about sin, I believe that smoking will kill you and smoking should be considered a sin…but that is me…