Split: If you are addicted, is it a sin?

[CopticChristian]

With that logic you should just come out and say the large percentage of alcoholics could just go right back to drinking with no problems. If one had a huge problem with gambling, should they regulary buy scratch off tickets? Is engaging in behavior that was once harmful to you a good thing? If that mentality was embraced we would all be in bad shape.

Johnny,

You and others believe as you post that this is my logic. I believe in fact. I am addicted to facts and the truth.

Post 147 says what I say.

The second proposition, that drinking necessarily becomes uncontrollable once it has begun, had been disproved over a quarter century ago by more than 100 research studies reporting that a significant proportion of alcoholics return to moderate or controlled drinking without problems.6 Since then, the number of such studies has more than doubled.

You are not among a significant number. The world should know that some can, some can’t, some don’t. There is no blanket proposition as is taught in the halls of AA.

“An honest approach would be to say that it is possible to drink in moderation however if you discover as I did then for me, for me, for me it was not possible.”

 

[ringil]

“The great obsession of the alcoholic is the desire to moderate their drinking.”

Coptic, your words would certainly come as honey to many with a drinking problem.

 

[CopticChristian]

“The great obsession of the alcoholic is the desire to moderate their drinking.”

Coptic, your words would certainly come as honey to many with a drinking problem.

Ringil,

Cite the source of this quotation for accurate understanding and elucidation. Can you do that?

Did you know that Greg Laurie says that when he preaches in a stadium that the only people that do not accept Christ at the altar call is because they do not want to confront their sin. I say it is possible that they do not accept their understanding of Christ because they don’t want to be Protestant.

 

[Christmastwin]

Christ,

Then you must admit that you are unable to drink in moderation. Your experience does not equal the world experience nor does it imply what is right for you is right for everyone. Empiricism vs Rationalism is always at odds. Testimonials is not what success is built on.

Glad you figured yourself out.

You don’t get it. It had nothing to do with me. It HAS nothing to do with me. I asked God for help and He brought me to where I am. He gets the credit, not me.

 

[CopticChristian]

You don’t get it. It had nothing to do with me. It HAS nothing to do with me. I asked God for help and He brought me to where I am. He gets the credit, not me.

Christ,

I wish everyone could find God as you did. Many do , many don’t, many suffer and for those that suffer I pray that they resolve their bad habits and find what you found.

 

[Christmastwin]

Let me make an attempt at on of the main points of confusion:

Man now needs redemption due to the choices made by his corrupted will. Man does not have the power to save himself, to will salvation. Jesus is the only power to set things right.

The addict has so badly separated and corrupted his will from the true power behind it, that the will must be surrendered to God, to be made whole in communion with Him.

Very well put.

 

[johnnyjones]

Johnny,

You and others believe as you post that this is my logic. I believe in fact. I am addicted to facts and the truth.

Post 147 says what I say.

You are not among a significant number. The world should know that some can, some can’t, some don’t. There is no blanket proposition as is taught in the halls of AA.

“An honest approach would be to say that it is possible to drink in moderation however if you discover as I did then for me, for me, for me it was not possible.”

Your sources or propositions do not concur with my long time experience , I have seen death, kaos, jail and more come upon many who returned to substances they believed could no longer affect them. I also know that through the same trials the aforementioned applies to me. What I know in my heart and what I have seen in the faces of others who damn near lost their life due to ambiguous beliefs can no statistic change. YOU say,"If you want to believe that, obviously you are doing the same except that I have felt it in my bones.

God loves the recovered alcoholic. Addiction followed through is sin, folly can be death.

 

[CopticChristian]

Your sources or propositions do not concur with my long time experience , I have seen death, kaos, jail and more come upon many who returned to substances they believed could no longer affect them. I also know that through the same trials the aforementioned applies to me. What I know in my heart and what I have seen in the faces of others who damn near lost their life due to ambiguous beliefs can no statistic change. YOU say,"If you want to believe that, obviously you are doing the same except that I have felt it in my bones.

God loves the recovered alcoholic. Addiction followed through is sin, folly can be death.

Johnny,

Experience speaks volumes. My uncle drank regularly and when I asked him recently about having a beer, he said, “no I quit drinking”…the doctor said that it was affecting my liver so I just gave it up"…

Open the paper, listen to the radio, watch TV, rarely will you see or hear stories like that. We only see the disasters that do not speak of all experience.

The Pedophile reporting of the Church is not the Church, only what they choose to report and see.

 

[johnnyjones]

Johnny,

Experience speaks volumes. My uncle drank regularly and when I asked him recently about having a beer, he said, “no I quit drinking”…the doctor said that it was affecting my liver so I just gave it up"…

Open the paper, listen to the radio, watch TV, rarely will you see or hear stories like that. We only see the disasters that do not speak of all experience.

The Pedophile reporting of the Church is not the Church, only what they choose to report and see.

I have the same eyes you have.

What if you asked your uncle while he was in the throws of his alcoholism about having a beer? Different answer? Even a lung cancer patient may give up smoking on their “last legs”.

 

[CopticChristian]

I have the same eyes you have.

What if you asked your uncle while he was in the throws of his alcoholism about having a beer? Different answer? Even a lung cancer patient may give up smoking on their “last legs”.

Johnny,

Funny…“My uncle drank regularly” and you conclude “throws of his alcoholism”…fascinating…have you ever met my uncle, seen my uncle drink, know anything about my uncle…the paradigm causes you to shade everyone that drinks as “alcoholic”…a bump in your liver function tests is not the last leg of lung cancer. The liver, you may not know is remarkable for its regenerative powers, you need only have about 25% of your liver to have it function normally.

Wow…the paradigm has done wonders for your outlook on life…

 

[Bill_7154]

Annabelle,

The answer to this is how you view addiction. Tragically much of the public has been brainwashed to believe that it is a disease and it is not.

Well then if it is not a disease.

Stanton Peele, PhD…the truth about addiction.

When you realize that this is nothing more than habit then it is and can be sin.

Wow, you mean to tell us that serial killers, addicted to murdering people, are actaully sinning? No way!

 

[Bill_7154]

The science is pretty clear now…true addiction (“persistent use despite negative consequences”), as opposed to simple bad choices and behaviors, is truly an illness. We can see from brain scans that addicts have their free-will part of the brain (the pre-frontal cortex) severely compromised. This makes them sick people who can do very bad things; it matters not whether the addiction is “physical” or “mental”. No amount of punishment will change their brain chemistry…only treatment can do that.
This doesn’t mean they get a free pass on their behavior. It does mean that they should be considered sick rather than as sinners.

Why can’t they be considered both?

 

[Bill_7154]

From when someone is in the throws of addiction, they can not stop even when they desperately want too. Even when they are destroying their lives and others around them. The compulsion to drink/use is too strong. It’s an illness. If it was not an illness, then addicts could use moderately, but because they can not then it definitely is an illness.

25 years ago I was what a doctor would diagnose an ‘alcohol abuser’. I am now a very light social drinker. At one point I could not use moderately, now at another point I can. How does this fit with your view/the view you quote/put forth?

 

[Bill_7154]

Thats for people that can control their drinking with behavioural change. Problem drinkers not addictsalcoholics. Where abstinance is a must.

So how to you differentiate in the moment? Or can you only do so in retrospect, like Monday morning quarterbacking? I was addicted to alcohol. I was told by professionals abstinance was a must and I would never be able to drink socially. I abstained for a period of time, different periods of time, over the years. Now I occasionally have a drink, or 1/2 a drink. Mostly I don’t like even light social drinking as it makes me tired.

But 20-25 years ago if I drank a couple of drinks I would be drinking 20 or more every time.

The professionals who diagnosed me back then were wrong. I ask again, how with your science, in the moment, in what appears to be the throws of addiction, how does the professional put a label on one person as addict and on another as problem drinker, and then 20 years down the line demonstrate the science they used was correct based on the behaviors of the people they diagnosed 20 years prior?

Is that possible? If not it sounds like hokey pokey guessing games and pseudo-science.

 

[Bill_7154]

Corki,

Any habit has ex-habit performers. Name one habit and those that no longer have the habit and they are all ex-habit of whatever.

Nicotine is the most addictive substance on this planet and yet those that smoke and then stop smoking do it of their own volition. Those that quit have a reason to quit and studies show that using drugs, patches, etc are no better than having a reason to stop. Having a reason to quit is the biggest and most common factor in quiting any habit.

The sad part of the swallowing of the “disease model” is that every AA/12 step program and meeting has smokers. If the addiction were treated and if the disease model had any value then why do smokers keep smoking after they stop drinking or using drugs?

As far as I am concerned the disease model benefits those that treat diseases.

I am not saying it has no merit. What I am saying is that it is not the end all and be all. I was an alcoholic but never fully believed in the disease model. I adopted many of the behaviors disease model advocates prescribe for different periods of time in my life. But I always knew in my heart the underlying thing that drove me to uncontrollable drinking was the pain and suffering from an abusive childhood. As I continued to address those things I continued to change. I am now a light social drinker with no desire to get drunk and no compulsion to do so, even after consuming alcohol.

I am living proof that the disease model, while of some usefulness, is not ‘the answer’. It may and I think does hold some answers, as do many ideas. But I am living proof that the disease model is not factual science, it is a method to address a coplex isssue, the symptom of which is the use of a substance.

 

[Bill_7154]

My grandparents,mother,most my aunties, sister,myself being addicts. Both my sister and I work in the field of addiction. I attend AA/NA and do CBT courses. There is a totally big difference between those being able to learn to control their drinking and those that cannot.

And this can be predicted as soon as the patient presents themself? Or is it pseudo-science, where those who don’t change are used as proof the disease model is the only correct model and those who do change are suddenly re-diagnosed (conveniently) to try and keep the validity of the disease model (while actually invalidating it)?

 

[Bill_7154]

With CBT, you learn behavioural changes that can help you in the long run. These are practiced day in/day out. In 12-step, you acknowledge that you are powerless over alcohol/drugs once you start using them. It sets off the addiction. Therefore its the acceptance. Once you have stopped you can use the tools of CBT, But that certainly does’nt mean you can drink. Those that only use SMART use the tools for behavioural change, but still recognise they have to remain abstinent

Again, how is it possible that I am now a light social drinker?

 

[Bill_7154]

Almost by definition, an addict has to crash to turn around. The will and heart have to be broken and reformed because the addiction is a complete perversion of those. The crash doesn’t manifest itself the same in everyone. Some people lose families, some end up broke, some injured seriously. Some are tortured spiritually but never lose much in the world. That was me. I am reasonably comfortable with a family but crashed nonetheless.

And I would just add that you are oversimplifying the 12 step programs. They have saved many lives for good reason.

And have failed many as well.

There is a therory that comes from social psychiatry. It claims that alcoholism is ‘a game’ with many players. The addict, the enabler, the resuer.

This model, when looking at AA, explains that what happens to the addict is they switch roles in the ‘game’ from addict (being saved) to resuer (the one in the meetings now 'in recovery). The rub is that they are still addicted to ‘the game’. They must continue to have addicts in their lives they are actively connected to, playing ‘the game’ with, working to ‘save’ them. The compulsion to participate in this game is a lifelong addiction where people in AA need to continue to go and continue to address ‘the newcomer’ the addict, in order to continue to play out their addiction to the game, albeit in the new role as rescuer.

So they don’t get true freedom. They don’t get free from the game. They still have the compulsion to participate in the game, continue to sponsor people, out of compulsion- not free choice without compulsion.

They are still trapped in the cycle of addiction, just addicted to a new role in the game, psychologically trapped, compelled to play out the game. Without new people to rescue they will relapse back into the role of addict.

True freedom from addiction, from excessive use of alcohol, comes from addressing the underlying issues that drove someone to drink to excess in the first place. Address those emotional/psychological issues adequately and one is free from both addiction to alcohol and addiction to the game.

The Book: Games People Play by ? his name escapes me. It’s been a long time since I have read the book

 

[Bill_7154]

If a person feels that they must be mindful of their previous addictive behavior and know that they will return to it if they dabble, are they espousing AAs philosophy? I think Clem spoke reasonably. AA is a mixed bag, it has many positive elements but can make you think that if you don’t practice things their way your doomed to failure. I took what worked and left the rest…for good.

AA benefits people, it has benefited me. But it also harms people. People with severe mental illness who also drink to excess or use some street drug go there and the members, who are admiteddling addicts, not even recovered addicts, often expouse how anyone on any drug at all (including medicines prescribed by doctors like psychiatrists) are ‘not clean’. I have had patients relapse into severe psychosis because some clown at an AA meeting took it upon himself to start dispensing medical/psychiatric advice to a random group of strangers, some of whom he has never met. Some with severe mental illnesses.

And the patients walk away and flush their medicines. This is very sad and AA is very flawed in this way as many dispense medical advice to others rather than focusing on themselves and leaving the issue of what medications a person should or should not be on to medical doctors who have actual training and experience in determining such things.

This is bad and some very ill people can go off their meds at this advice and risk becoming suicidal in the most extreme cases. In most cases their psychiatric treatment takes a turn for the worse because they are receiving these messages from adicts who should not be giving such messages to people.

 

[CopticChristian]

Wow, you mean to tell us that serial killers, addicted to murdering people, are actaully sinning? No way!

Bill,

I think that serial killers are addicted to the feeling of power they get from destroying life.