SPLIT: Is Confession not necessary?

[Iamnotafraid]

I usually spend my time in the bible. Thanks

I must be imagining this conversation on a Christian forum.

A search on forums.catholic-questions.org’ and google;

Richard Dawkins, 523 results, 3,150,000

Sam Harris, 675 results, 719,000 google results.

Christopher Hitchens, 186 results. 1,540,000 google results.

Not sure how your remaining oblivious to what’s going on around you. If being unaware is what keeps you happy, who am I to judge.

Back on topic…no, I don’t think confession is necessary and if taken seriously, in dealing with eternal salvation, it can lead to severe anxiety. ( known as scrupulosity)

If you believe in God, it’s better to believe that God will forgive you, without having to jump through any hoops. What’s the worst that going to happen? Your going to die, end up at St Peters gate and St Peter will say to you…

" Nice life you lived, devout believer in the correct brand of religion, good family man, good citizen, good neighbour, confessed to God in private, gave to charity…WHAT:bigyikes:

Confessed to God in private! You mean you didn’t follow the rules created by Gods Church? We can’t have that up here, rules are rules and they’re there for a reason…to be followed explicitly.

Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo…"

1 John 1;9

If we acknowledge our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from every wrongdoing.

I don’t see anything there about following rules, procedures and meeting your confession quota.

I just see forgiveness through sincere acknowledgment.

 

[CentralFLJames]

I LOVE that you understand what it means to be omniscient.

Now, if you will, please give this question a go.

If what you said is true of Gods omniscience. Is it not a contradiction of benevolence, if God through his omniscience, knows that if had a person born in a different place, different time and to different parents, that the set of circumstances in that life, would result in eternal reward.

God chooses to have a baby born to Satan worshiping parents, instead of choosing to have a baby born to devout Christian missionaries.

Yet, through Gods omniscience, God is aware that if he had chosen to have had that same soul placed in a baby that was born 200 years ago to that devout Christian family, God can see that the life subsequently lived, would be one where the choices made, resulted in eternal reward in heaven.

You follow? Many Christians pretend they don’t know what I’m talking about or they claim that it is impossible for God to do that, ( thus limiting Gods power, and thereby reducing God to be other than omnipotent)

Instead, God is content, to have a baby born to a set of parents, that will raise him or her with a complete absence of belief.

I’d love to answer your question but we are compelled of late to remain on topic. I don’t know if I can frame my response in the context of the OP.

Let me try this…

“I confess” I don’t know how you can make so many assumptions (only on the pessimistic side of consideration) that assume all the worst conditions imaginable. Are you sure you are not just a pessimist and not an atheist at all?

A quick laundry list of your assumptions:

• Unwarranted Assumption 1 : That the socio-economic-geographic circumstances that a person is born into effect the intrinsic nature and identity of the soul - a presumption that environment has any bearing on the make up of personality and virtue that does not wash with reason.
• Unwarranted Assumption 2: A person’s soul is shaped by the genetics of his parents and birth place. Are we the sum of the sins of our fathers?
• Unwarranted Assumption 3: God can not judge fairly nor standardize all to a common standard of objective judgement to take into consideration the negative influences in our life nor credit one fairly for the soul not given the same opportunity to be tried or to excel. Have you considered that the soul given the greatest disadvantage might be entitled to more grace and higher potential reward or relational development?
• Unwarranted Assumption 4: God can not compensate for apparent “unfairness” of life circumstance nor for apparent “privilege”. You can not know who attained heaven nor who attained hell nor take into consideration that reward and punishment need not be binary in degree but rather have a full spectrum of reward and punishment within each dichotomy of performance.

OK 'fess up - confess that you do not know God’s mind either nor know how a single soul actually fared in the afterlife…

This all certainly makes the case that confession of one’s inadequacy in knowing God’s mind is necessary to further the dialog constructively and to give at least an appearance of objectivity.

James

 

[Iamnotafraid]

OK 'fess up - confess that you do not know God’s mind either nor know how a single soul actually fared in the afterlife…

This all certainly makes the case that confession of one’s inadequacy in knowing God’s mind is necessary to further the dialog constructively and to give at least an appearance of objectivity.

James

You certainly provide very thoughtful and high quality responses.

 

[ralphy]

Why do you hang out with Catholics on your free time?
Please Ralph. You love it.

I don’t hang out with “catholics” in my spare time,I hang out with christians who read the bible. Ralph

 

[Iamnotafraid]

The biggest problem with confession, is that it is very necessary to follow the rules. Now it’s hard to believe that the creator of the universe,( if there is one, who happens to identify with Christianity) would create a system of forgiveness that is so dependent upon matter and form.

That’s a big obstacle imo.

 

[sauce]

Just as it is his will that we go to heaven or hell.

 "Guilt it is which makes the will of the damned in Hell malignant, on whom God does not bestow His goodness and who remain therefore in desperate ill will, opposed to the

will of God."

                                 -- Catherine of Genoa

 

[edjco]

Where did you get the words “which is the first installment”. My Roman catholic bible says “who is the pledge of our inheritance, for a redemption of possesion , for the prais of His glory” Ralph

From the NAB.

 

[CentralFLJames]

The biggest problem with confession, is that it is very necessary to follow the rules. Now it’s hard to believe that the creator of the universe,( if there is one, who happens to identify with Christianity) would create a system of forgiveness that is so dependent upon matter and form.

That’s a big obstacle imo.

This is another invalid or at least partially invalid assumptions.

There are not a lot of rules outside those implied in a semantic of “seeking forgivness” and desiring to reconcile oneself with God. In fact its a normal relational sort of “instinct” that we all have as higher-ordered social creatures to remain in a good relationship with every known context (e.g. man-with-self, man-with-nature, man-with-man, man-with-God). Can it be any surprise that we all have within us this inner “feeling” of sadness or unease or lack of “peace” or anxiety when we are “not right” in one of these primary categorical relationships. Anxiety moves one to rectify and gain peace. This is God’s law at work in our hearts and in fact reveals the nature of sin - it damages relationships in all these 4 categories (let me here add one more implicit and specialized multi-way relationship that is a trinitarian view of man-with-God I would call “man-with-Church” – a mystical relationship that co-joins man with God as before but also with each of his spiritual family on earth and in heaven [including those suffering in purgatory]). But this sadness or lack of peace can be imported not because of our specific sins but because of the sins of others - hence the universal scope of sin and its counter remedy - grace and forgiveness.

All said, confession first is formed through a natural human desire to “get right” in our relationships - both with those who have hurt us and caused us to sin by feelings of abandonment and anger and with those who we have caused harm and alienation. To get right is to desire to “be out of debt” and to repair damages and to make amends or whatever it takes to restore a valued relationship. This we call forming “contrition” - acknowledging an offense and developing a sincere desire to not only in the future avoid the acts which caused the offense but to make restitution for the current offense.

With respect to “getting right with God” this natural contrition and desire to make restitution is where it all must start – if we can’t get to this level then there is no formed conscience and one is indifferent to the sins one commits. The deeper one is into a relationship the more profound one regrets harming it and so the complete absence of sorrow or indifference is a marker for “no relationship” (and this person is already spiritually dead and only repentant grace can wake them up).

To make it concrete let me say that to confess ones sins all one must do is “their best” in forming a contrite heart and the desire to “get right”. One MAY and SHOULD approach God in the privacy of one’s own heart to say “I am sorry” - this is YOUR relationship with God afterall. That gets the ball rolling. But God is so high above us and so Holy that our offenses are an eternal insult and affront to Him that one of His created creatures would dare to consciously offend Him by ignoring His tenants. God knows we CAN’T satisfy through any personal means the magnitude of our offense against Himself - this is WHY He gave us His own Divine Person in Christ (God’s peer in the Trinity) as a peace offering to make it possible for us to be forgiven. Jesus is the bridge that makes it possible to reach up to God on His level since Jesus is also relationally rooted in our humanity. But God for His own reasons has given a specific authority to forgive sins into the ecclesial authority of His Church. Clearly one of the reasons for doing this rather than making it universal to all men is so people do not abuse God’s Mercy and commit grave sins (murder, fornication, adultery etc.) and thinking they can say forgive themselves of any crime. The crime must be attested to a witness to get the full admission of fault - and this witness should not be a ''partner in crime" so to speak - just another friend who will tell you anything you want to make you feel good.

The other aspect here is that sin effects the entire Church (and creation and oneself). So the need arises for a person to seek forgivness from The Church in its whole. The priest represents The Church and so it is natural that the authority to forgive should be invested in the spokesperson for The Church otherwise one must get every single person in The Church to forgive them - this would be untenable and would quickly get out of hand and lead to all manner of gossip etc. (although Catholics do actually seek forgivness from general faults and sins from each other through public prayer at each mass during the penitential rite).

The only essential rules are that the attending priest be a properly ordained apostolic priest with the real ecclesial authority to forgive sins and that the person seeking forgivness actually speak aloud each of his known mortal/grave sins and attest to sorrow and promise to try to avoid these sins in the future (act of contrition prayer) and for the priest to grant absolution using the trinitarian formula. There are a few various forms of confession but this is the essential matter.

So – not a lot of rules at all.

James

 

[sauce]

I don’t hang out with “catholics” in my spare time,I hang out with christians who read the bible. Ralph

You’re here, Ralphy. And it’s on a Catholic site. And you must be free to put your time
into it. And you love it, or you wouldn’t be here.

 

[davidv]

The biggest problem with confession, is that it is very necessary to follow the rules. Now it’s hard to believe that the creator of the universe,( if there is one, who happens to identify with Christianity) would create a system of forgiveness that is so dependent upon matter and form.

That’s a big obstacle imo.

Why is that? Jesuss very act of Redemption was all about matter (incarnation) and form (suffer, die, buried, resurrected).

 

[sauce]

*]Unwarranted Assumption 4: God can not compensate for apparent “unfairness” of life circumstance nor for apparent “privilege”. You can not know who attained heaven nor who attained hell nor take into consideration that reward and punishment need not be binary in degree but rather have a full spectrum of reward and punishment within each dichotomy of performance.

James, you are such a kick! Keep going.

 

[Iamnotafraid]

Why is that? Jesuss very act of Redemption was all about matter (incarnation) and form (suffer, die, buried, resurrected).

The necessity of a blood sacrifice, also seems odd, considering that the creator the universe could think of no other way to forgive his creation.

Playing along with you…Christ’s crucifixion was not dependent upon his saying just the right things, the Roman soldiers performing their roles in a specific manner and prayers said in just the right way, in order for Christ’s crucifixion to be considered licit and valid by the creator of the universe.

 

[Bruno_Schulz]

**“sacrifice, seems odd, considering that the creator of the universe couldn’t think of other ways to forgive”

This too is easy to disprove, but useless to people who simply are

“playing along with you…” as the one announces, who keeps shouting he is “not afraid”

To others interested:

As God is just; in fact justness Himself, - it would not have been just to all those, who had been condemned before (all who suffered in hell including all demons and Satan himself).

So – it wasn’t a matter of simple forgiveness! Of course not! One can “simply forgive in love” some wrongdoing to a certain, and limited extend - never though, wen it’s simply too much to a deadly extend.
In that case, if God “simply” had forgiven, God would be as all invented Gods all the peoples of the earth made up in the ancient world; haphazard without any justness. But all of these “Gods” where as inexistent, as “Gods” of other religions today. God in contrary, the one and only God as He Himself revealed Himself and later was revealed by Jesus Christ - He lives.

Injustice can be erased only one way – by atonement. Even all normal, democratic states practice that tis way.

God himself took these sins, that made our togetherness with God impossible, away, by taking this atonement the just suffering for it, upon Himself. Otherwise we had to suffer for it, in going to hell.

Those who want to understand might understand, those who don’t – simply let it
**

 

[Bruno_Schulz]

Excuse the mistakes in my previous post; but my wife insisted on dinner. You know: “meal-terror”

 

[Iamnotafraid]

God would be as all invented Gods all the peoples of the earth made up in the ancient world; haphazard without any justness. But all of these “Gods” where as inexistent, as “Gods” of other religions today. God in contrary, the one and only God as He Himself revealed Himself and later was revealed by Jesus Christ - He lives.

Your God is just as real to you as Vishnu is to a Hindu. All of your Gods are equally imaginary and fantastical to me. Your God is equally as fraudulent and non-existent to a Hindu, as you believe that her God is non-existent.

Fear not, your not alone if you can’t comprehend that. Many of the religious are incapable of grasping this concept.

Injustice can be erased only one way – by atonement. Even all normal, democratic states practice that tis way.

A blood sacrifice does not erase injustice in any democratic state that I know of.

God himself took these sins, that made our togetherness with God impossible, away, by taking this atonement the just suffering for it, upon Himself. Otherwise we had to suffer for it, in going to hell.

Nothing is impossible with God, the creator of the universe. A blood sacrifice is precisely what you should expect from primitive man living in the dessert 2000 years ago.

What exactly would the good Lord do if he had waited 2000 years to have brought the Messiah to the world and had this Messiah born to a virgin in Canada?

There could be no blood sacrifice in Canada, rather endless appeals, free legal aid, minimum sentencing, possibly even a community sentence!

I can see Jesus begging the courts to condemn him to death, so that God can forgive everyone!

’ But your Honour, my Dad can’t forgive anyone if you give me a community sentence order and absolute discharge of my charges, you have to put me to death!’

I suppose your right, it’s a good thing that Jesus came 2000 years ago, as Gods genius plan requiring a blood sacrifice, would be hard pressed to carry out in any enlightened and civilized nation today.

 

[Tomster]

I do not know what denomination you are, but I can see that you are sound on your scripture about confession. Stick with the Bible for you will be judged by it in the end time… Ralph

'As the Father hath sent me, I also send you . . . whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them: whose sins you shall retain they are retained." (John 20: 21-23)

Protestants are obliged to maintain that according to this text sins are remitted by the simple preaching of the Gospel, and not by any judgment passed on the dispositions of the sinner, as happens in the sacrament of Penance. Protestants tell us that the Apostles preached; those who believed were forgiven, the others not. But, what then becomes of the apostolic power to bind and loose? We do not think that those exegetes who make a point of being critical will be very long content with this Lutheran subterfuge. Today it is much more readily granted that the Catholic interpretation is correct. When Protestantism comes to see that the Gospel speaks of “worship in spirit and truth”, of the flesh “that profiteth nothing”, is the same Gospel that speaks of the Word made flesh, of water that regenerates, of the Body and Blood that is meat and drink, of the sentence that remits or retains sins, that is to say of the Incarnation, Baptism, the Eucharist and Penance, then it will either have to change some its teaching or multilate the text of St. John.

 

[Iamnotafraid]

’ But, what then becomes of the apostolic power to bind and loose?

What of the Apostolic power to heal lepers and raise the dead?

Funny how the Apostles only passed down their invisible powers, but not the powers that people can see with their own eyes.

 

[Tomster]

What of the Apostolic power to heal lepers and raise the dead?

Funny how the Apostles only passed down their invisible powers, but not the powers that people can see with their own eyes.

I will respond to your statement when time permits. However, I must ask, why did you change your postscript? Do you still consider human reason to be a whore as Luther did or did you change your mind on that?

 

[Iamnotafraid]

I will respond to your statement when time permits. However, I must ask, why did you change your postscript? Do you still consider human reason to be a whore as Luther did or did you change your mind on that?

It was a distraction for Catholics, who kept reminding me that Luther wasn’t a Catholic. If I had a nickel for every time someone was critical of my signature…

I made mine up and I think it’s good.

 

[Bruno_Schulz]

**Would anybody care, or answer in forums he’s not at all interested in?
Never!

Would anybody even read carefully and respond in rage if the subject of this forum would be of no interest what so ever and even be found irrelevant?
Never!

But, as we see, irreligious are deeply afraid, for they can’t prove theyr statements of inxestance of God and so they hve to bear the worry “what if it’ll be true after all”:bigyikes:

“Well if it is” they think, “I’m on the bad side. Gosh me – even severe reason to be afraid of what will happen to me – when I’m dead”.

That’s why they have to call out all the time
“Iamnotafraid Iamnotafraid Iamnotafraid”

My dear little “Iamnotafraid” however afraid you get – and you might be sure that you get even more afraid the nearer you get to your death – all I can say is:
You’re deadly wrong.

But if you keep singing “Iamnotafraid Iamnotafraid”, then you won’t be afraid (at least you believe so
Keep on singing until you stand before God. It’ll help bearing your empty life here on earth
**