SPLIT: Married outside the Church

[banished]

bbbbbbbbbbb

I am 51.

You sound like you were very happy with the Protestants. You heart seems to be more in the Protestant church than the Catholic Church. They have Protestant Churches who are more quiet than let’s say the Assembly of God Churches. They have Luthern and Angelican churchs that have communion every Sunday. Though I don’t think they believe it is the actual body of blood of Jesus, but do it in rememberance of him. To be honest you seem to want the Catholic church to become Protestant, which is not going to happen.

I on the other hand, didn’t like the Protestant church and felt bad when ever I heard an anti-Catholic comment from the pulpit. I remember during those days that my friend and I who were Catholic and at Community College in Saratoga, CA were part of a Bible Study and we were not allowed to lead the prayer because we were Catholic. They didn’t mind us being there, but they wanted to convert us. They would plant seeds of the Catholic Church is wrong on this doctrine and we the Baptist church is right. I know a few young guys who left the Catholic Chruch and converted to the Protestant church because they had been poisoned against their own church.

Yes, I think the Preist did the right thing because you don’t really want to be living by the teachings of the Catholic Church, but you want to be allowed to have your cake and eat it too. You want the church to continue to bless your current situation when you are not willing to do what it takes to have the marriage blessed in the Church you say you want to be a member of.

I don’t know about you, but I have some guilt for the things I have done in my life and the years I was angry and left the church. I have guilt about sitting there in a church and listening to their anti-Catholic sermons.

Did you ever think that maybe God doesn’t want you toleave the Protestant church? Did you ever think that maybe he wants you and your wife to worship in the same church together? I believe God wants families to worship together in the same church. You have a child and he should see his parents share and worship in the same faith as one. Isn’t that what marriage truly is the two becoming one unit.

I would encourage you to pray and really seek God’s Will for you and your family. It just seems by your attitude that your heart isn’t really ready to accept the teachings of the Catholic Church. Your heart still seems in the Protestant church where you were so happy. I am not sure you are ever going to find what you are looking for in the Catholic Church because until you humble yourself and do what is necessary to be a Catholic in good standing a priest is not going to pardon you for something you are not willing to correct. In your eyes you are not wrong and the church is wrong. It is like you don’t want to understand the position of the church regarding the sacrament of marriage being for that one marriage and when she died that marriage was over. Now you have to get the marriage you have now blessed within the Catholic Church. Marriage ends at death. Catholics are not Mormons that believe that marriage can be eternal and that one is married in heaven.

I wish you the best. I know how hard it is to want to do the right thing, but at the same time not wanting to admit the truth.

Hello Chrisy58,

That was some very level headed advice. Thanks, but for some reason God has moved me over to this heartless group of legalists. It’s like shoveling sand against the tide. Romans 8:1 keeps ringing in my ears. “There is no condemnation for them who are in Christ Jesus”.

Richard

 

[bacon_man]

This has been said many times. You need to drop this attitude of you vs. legalists. Your not being persecuted. There are no legalists, their just doing their job. This me vs them attitude is holding you back. Please, for your own good, swollow your pride.

 

[NewEnglandPriest]

Richard, I read your opening post with some sympathy. I felt for you and your situation. However, after reading your posts that followed, in all Christian love I must say: grow up.

You went to a Traditional Latin High Mass, which anyone with common sense would know is probably a very conservative parish, and thought the priest wouldn’t uphold a strict interpretation of Church law?

You the go on to propose a very childish question to Br. Rich, SFO.

And of course, there’s the rest of your nonsense. You don’t appear to have any desire to live the Roman Catholic faith or live in communion with the universal Church, yet you are upset that you didn’t get what you wanted. Well, maybe that’s because the universal Church established by Jesus Christ doesn’t exist to do your bidding.

You seem to want to define what constitutes a valid sacrament and what canon law should say about your issue. However, to be a Catholic means that you accept what the Catholic Church teaches about sacraments and conform to her canons.

If you wish to approach the issues of your marriage and your standing in the Church in an adult-like and responsible manner, then there’s many here who would be willing to help you with info that could be useful. Otherwise, grow up and realize that, much like a child who didn’t get a cookie, you’re just going to have to get over your so-called “hurt.”

 

[enfantdemarie]

Hello Br. SFO,

Sorry, I should have mentioned that both my wife and I were non-praticing Catholics who had been baptized into a Protestant denomination. That probably makes our marriage a protestant marriage? There has been so much talk about, “Living in Sin” in recent years, that I started to confess that to the Priest.

Are you a Chaplain at San Francisco International Airport (SFO)?

Richard

Hi Richard,

I am a Catholic priest in the Midwest who happened to come across your thread, and I want to apologize for any of my brother priests who have scandalized you by preferring the golf course and personal leisure to healing a wounded sheep seeking understanding. Sadly, while visiting my brother in California, I noticed that some priests take their role as “shepherd in Christ” carelessly. I have read all of the postings and detect a number of misunderstandings among your explanations of the Catholic teaching, but I want to address your main concern.

It is correct that your first marriage ended with the death of your first wife and that a new celebration of the sacrament in the Catholic Church is required for your present marriage to be valid. All marriages between two baptized Christians are valid. Nevertheless, if one of the baptized to be married is Catholic, the Catholic is required to follow the form of the sacrament established by Jesus acting through His Catholic Church, UNLESS the Catholic party has left the Church by a formal act. A formal act USUALLY is something like enrollment or baptism in a non-Catholic church, BUT this may not be the case if the person did not intend to cease practicing the Catholic faith. Your responses leave me unsure of what your intention was when you were baptized. However, your original post clearly indicates that you have at least some desire to practice the Catholic faith now. This leads me to believe that, when you were baptized in the Protestant church, you never fully intended to depart from the Catholic faith of your youth.

The offense your first wife took at the drinking and “bingo” at your parish are understandable given her background, but it sounds like a Protestant misunderstanding of Scripture. Unless the drinking and game led to drunkeness, the loss of money necessary for the support of family, or similar grave sins, the actions are not necessarily sinful. But, while important, these are not your primary concerns.

I believe that the priest who denied you absolution did the correct thing based on the information that your revealed to him, but I am not sure that you gave him the full information necessary for him to counsel you well. For me to provide you with further advice, I would need to know your intent when you were apart from the Catholic Church and baptized in the Protestant church.

I am going now to spend an hour with Our Lord in the Blessed Sacrament. I will keep you in my prayers. You may email me, if you know how to do that. This is my first forum and posting so I am unsure. I will try to check back soon. But I am leaving for a conference, so it may be a few days.

In Jesus and Mary,

Fr. Enfantdemarie

 

[banished]

bbb

Hi Richard,

I am a Catholic priest in the Midwest who happened to come across your thread, and I want to apologize for any of my brother priests who have scandalized you by preferring the golf course and personal leisure to healing a wounded sheep seeking understanding. Sadly, while visiting my brother in California, I noticed that some priests take their role as “shepherd in Christ” carelessly. I have read all of the postings and detect a number of misunderstandings among your explanations of the Catholic teaching, but I want to address your main concern.

It is correct that your first marriage ended with the death of your first wife and that a new celebration of the sacrament in the Catholic Church is required for your present marriage to be valid. All marriages between two baptized Christians are valid. Nevertheless, if one of the baptized to be married is Catholic, the Catholic is required to follow the form of the sacrament established by Jesus acting through His Catholic Church, UNLESS the Catholic party has left the Church by a formal act. A formal act USUALLY is something like enrollment or baptism in a non-Catholic church, BUT this may not be the case if the person did not intend to cease practicing the Catholic faith. Your responses leave me unsure of what your intention was when you were baptized. However, your original post clearly indicates that you have at least some desire to practice the Catholic faith now. This leads me to believe that, when you were baptized in the Protestant church, you never fully intended to depart from the Catholic faith of your youth.

The offense your first wife took at the drinking and “bingo” at your parish are understandable given her background, but it sounds like a Protestant misunderstanding of Scripture. Unless the drinking and game led to drunkeness, the loss of money necessary for the support of family, or similar grave sins, the actions are not necessarily sinful. But, while important, these are not your primary concerns.

I believe that the priest who denied you absolution did the correct thing based on the information that your revealed to him, but I am not sure that you gave him the full information necessary for him to counsel you well. For me to provide you with further advice, I would need to know your intent when you were apart from the Catholic Church and baptized in the Protestant church.

I am going now to spend an hour with Our Lord in the Blessed Sacrament. I will keep you in my prayers. You may email me, if you know how to do that. This is my first forum and posting so I am unsure. I will try to check back soon. But I am leaving for a conference, so it may be a few days.

In Jesus and Mary,

Fr. Enfantdemarie

Hello father,

Thanks for stopping by. I have a handle on it now. There were a few responses during this thread that told me to, “Grow-up!”. After thinking it over, where I made my mistake was going into the confessional like a little child, and telling all. I should not have introduced my self as not being in good standing, because of being married outside the Church. I do not have a guilt feeling about being married that way, because I believe that it was God’s will and that my marriage is between me and God. Marriages being made in Heaven is a very popular belief here in America. It’s almost impossible to be an American and not have heard that term at one time or another.

With my introduction in the confessional I was only trying to be polite to the Priest and reinforce his faith in Canonical Law, so I will not make that mistake in the future. Now that the Priest knows me I have to drive all the way down to San Jose for a Latin Mass with Gregorian Chants. There seems to be a new Praise and Worship movement going on here in this Diocese with Protestant Worship music being sang during the NO Mass that are in English. I think that it’s a good thing. I am a Charismatic and have picked up on the Gregorian Chants during High Mass as simply being Praise and Worship, rather than Canonical. Well, there you have it!

Richard

 

[jmcrae]

So, you’re going to go into the Confessional, and lie to the priest or withhold important information, so that you can receive the Absolution. uch:

By the way, the law of the Church is also the law of Heaven, just as Jesus promised. When you get to Heaven, Jesus is not going to say, “AWWWW, thass okay.” Nope. He’s going to say, “Hey, I gave you a Church to teach you what to do, but you didn’t listen to it.” Jesus also doesn’t go by what is popular in America. America didn’t even exist yet when He founded our Church.

Saying that your marriage is “made in Heaven” doesn’t get you off the hook from having to make it valid in the Church before you can come back to the Sacraments, either. God doesn’t change the rules for individual cases based on “I don’t feel like it” - everyone has to follow the same rules.

 

[banished]

So, you’re going to go into the Confessional, and lie to the priest or withhold important information, so that you can receive the Absolution. uch:

Nope! I am only going to confess what I know in my own heart to be an offence against God. When it comes to infractions to Canonical Law, that’s my judgement call. Can you live with that? Can you sit in church with someone who simply goes to Church for the Praise and Worship during the music service? It’s not as if I was trying to stop your salvation through Canonical Law. Go for it!

Lets wait to see what the Priest has to say, becasue this thread is getting wide and long. I am getting tire of repeating my positon on marraige. “he no playah the game, so he no makeah the rules”

Richard

 

[kage_ar]

God made the game, God makes the rules.

 

[jmcrae]

“he no playah the game, so he no makeah the rules”

God might not “playah the game” but He certainly does “makeah the rules.”

But you go right on ahead and tell Him that at the Judgment Day - I just want to see what He says in reply!

 

[agapewolf]

When it comes to infractions to Canonical Law, that’s my judgement call.

Richard

and then Adam and Eve ate the apple…

cause they wanted to decide for themselves what was right and wrong.

 

[NewEnglandPriest]

Nope! I am only going to confess what I know in my own heart to be an offence against God. When it comes to infractions to Canonical Law, that’s my judgement call.

So you want to just pick and choose which laws you’ll follow? Try that in traffic court.

Can you sit in church with someone who simply goes to Church for the Praise and Worship during the music service?

As Catholics we do not attend music services. We worship at the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.

It’s not as if I was trying to stop your salvation through Canonical Law.

Canon law doesn’t stop anyone’s salvation, as Canon 1752 states: the salvation of souls is the supreme law of the Church.

Lets wait to see what the Priest has to say, becasue this thread is getting wide and long.

Let’s not kid ourselves here, you’ve been very blatent about the fact that the only answer you’ll accept is the one that you want.

I am getting tire of repeating my positon on marraige.

That’s the whole problem, you only care about your position on marriage. However, you did not create marriage, God did.

 

[bacon_man]

I don’t know how many times we have to say it, but you don’t make the rules, God does. it’s like a cafeteria, You have to take everything, no outside food. Are you really willing to risk your soul on this for something that can be fixed easily?

 

[Chrisy58]

I want to thank the Priest for replying on this thread. I did send you a PM. I know it is very emotional but I do have PTSD and I have a lot of feelings that have never been dealt with.

Richard,

I am going to try and say this in a loving respectful way because I try and love people as Christ loves people. I am not trying to be judgemental because I know what it is like to be harshly judged by people and the pain that brings to one.

It just seems from reading your post that you do not have an open and tender heart for the Lord or the church. You want things your way and to you going to mass is just a social thing and praise and worship. For me it is going to receive the Lord Jesus in Communion and to be fed. You don’t seem to feel you have done anything wrong. You want the church to change to fit your needs and now you are going to not be totally honest with the priest so you can receive absolution. It just seems like this is one big game to you.

With every post you write, I just sense that you really like the Prostestant church. You want the Catholic Church to be the Protestant Church, but that isn’t going to happen. As you say both church love Christ and the main principles that make the Christian faith they believe in as well. Yes, there are differences but those are man made differences.

It just seems like this is one big game for you. It isn’t a game for me. I want to do the right thing, do you? If the priest tells you that you need to have this marriage blessed in the Catholic church will you do that, or will you continue this cat and mouse game?

You mentioned San Jose. I used to live in San Jose. I was confirmed at a church in San Jose in 1979. I know Mgsr. Allan isn’t there anymore as he died, but the priest that is there seemed really nice when I had him send me a copy of my Confirmation record. This was a long time ago, but I also remember a Christmatic Catholic group that met on Friday’s, but I don’t remember where now. They were nice people. That wasn’t mass, but you might just enjoy going to that service. There were non Catholics who also went for the music. It was a time when we worshiped with Catholics, Non Catholics, and sought to understand the other churches better.

Please don’t be so headstrong when you talk to the priest.

Christine

 

[banished]

you did not create marriage, God did.

Now we are getting somewhere. You finally said something that can be backed up with the Bible. When it comes to marriages being made in Heaven, the Bible says that, " we are without excuse". Lets face it, a Sacrament can not produce children using two life sized dolls.

Here is what the Bible says about the subject:

“For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse.” (Romans 1:20)

Therefore, you are without excuse: Marriages are made in Heaven.

Richard

 

[kage_ar]

And Christ gave Peter the keys to bind and loose. You cannot separate Christ from the Church, God’s law on marriage is the Church’s law on marriage.

Sounds as if you have a problem with the authority of The Church.

 

[jmcrae]

Now we are getting somewhere. You finally said something that can be backed up with the Bible. When it comes to marriages being made in Heaven, the Bible says that, " we are without excuse". Lets face it, a Sacrament can not produce children using two life sized dolls.

Here is what the Bible says about the subject:

“For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse.” (Romans 1:20)

Therefore, you are without excuse: Marriages are made in Heaven.

So are the rules that govern them - God’s rules that the Church shows us, and requires us to follow. You can’t say “Marriage is made in Heaven” and have this to mean that, therefore, you don’t have to follow God’s law.

 

[banished]

So are the rules that govern them - God’s rules that the Church shows us, and requires us to follow. You can’t say “Marriage is made in Heaven” and have this to mean that, therefore, you don’t have to follow God’s law.

The Bible says that, " we are without excuse", so give up now while you are ahead.

Richard

 

[jmcrae]

The Bible says that, " we are without excuse", so give up now while you are ahead.

Richard

What do you take that to mean?

Because I take it to mean that we must obey the Church; we have no excuses now, not to be obedient, because Jesus has washed away our sinfulness.

 

[bacon_man]

The Bible says that, " we are without excuse", so give up now while you are ahead.

Richard

It sounds like your quoting a verse out of context, like the protestants.

 

[banished]

What do you take that to mean?

Because I take it to mean that we must obey the Church; we have no excuses now, not to be obedient, because Jesus has washed away our sinfulness.

jmcrae,

I already told you once that I am not trying to stop the salvation that you believe you will get out of the Canonical Law. Go for it! If you would like me to back up some of what you are saying with Bible Verses, I can even help you with that. It would make your point of view much more valid if you could back it up with the Bible.

However, I would not be a Christian if I did’t remind you that the Bible says that, “we are without excuse!” It would be a sin for me not to mention that. Sorry.

Richard