(SPLIT) Mike Gendron's "Who Holds the Keys?"

[crochet_lady]

Church militant

You’re completely missing what I’m talking about and what the verse is saying. The verse is talking about the church groups located in those several different towns.

Okay – you brought in the Greek – I just looked up ‘churches’ – referred me to #1577 – Greek = ecclesia = from a compound of 1573 and 2564 “A calling out …a religious congregation ( Jewish synagogue or Christian community of members on earth… assembly, church.” And that’s from Strong’s.

And again – Paul and Silas went on several missionary journeys as the Holy Spirit led them – sharing the gospel / Jesus Christ risen / and as people chose to believe / accept / they came together and formed a ‘group of believers’ / a congregation. Two of those missionary journeys were to stop Back at those ‘groups of believers / congregations’ to encourage them in their growth As believers.

And, yes, I DO know that the ‘universal’ church is in the Bible – only we have different definitions. Go figure

Okay – the church at Smyrna – Revelation 2 – he’s also writing to the church at Ephesis and Thyatira, and Sardis and Philedelphia – which are all separate bodies of believers / churches / congregations. So - YOUR point?
And you Also commented 'in the letter to Smyrna – calling it the Catholic church? – the early church bishop who wrote to the church? Where is That?

 

[spina1953]

It seems to me that Jesus gave Peter the keys to give him authority in a special way. Jesus did not give the keys to the other Apostles in the same way or manor. later Jesus in giving the keys when He breathed on them was to have unity with Peter. So IOW Jesus was building His Church on Peter. Jesus did not say that He was going to build his Church on the rest of the Apostles, but only on Peter. I think it is obvious that all of the Apostles in one way or the other were to help Peter in building the Church and in the end someone had to be in charge when till Jesus returns.

 

[rfournier103]

Interesting debate about the Keys to the Kingdom and authority here…

I had a chance to view some of the non-Catholic links in this thread, and it never fails to amaze me how many bigoted, misguided, and venomous anti-Catholic websites there are out there. Sad, really…

The Keys and Matthew and Isaiah have been discussed; and I really don’t have anything to add to that.

I confess that I haven’t read every single post here, but I’d like to drop the mitts and have a go if I may…

If we are discussing Peter’s primacy among the Apostles, there are several things we can look at…

Firstly, Peter is mentioned 155 times and the rest of apostles combined are only mentioned 130 times. Peter is also always listed first except in 1 Cor. 3:22 and Gal. 2:9 (which are obvious exceptions to the rule). I would say that that separates him as being pretty special among the Apostles.

Next, I’d like to point to the Gospel of John (my favorite). In the Gospel of John; chapter 21 (verses 15 - 17), we see Jesus charge Peter with governance of His flock;

When they had finished breakfast, Jesus said to Simon Peter, “Simon, son of John, do you love me more than these?” He said to him, “Yes, Lord, you know that I love you.” He said to him, “Feed my lambs.” He then said to him a second time, “Simon, son of John, do you love me?” He said to him, “Yes, Lord, you know that I love you.” He said to him, “Tend my sheep.” He said to him the third time, “Simon, son of John, do you love me?” Peter was distressed that he had said to him a third time, “Do you love me?” and he said to him, “Lord, you know everything; you know that I love you.” (Jesus) said to him, "Feed my sheep.

Did Jesus Christ put PETER in charge of the flock, or not? It sure sounds like it to me. The Divine Shepherd left the Rock in charge of the flock. It’s there in every Bible in black and white. If the Keys aren’t enough to convince an anti-Catholic of conferred authority, this should.

 

[spina1953]

Interesting debate about the Keys to the Kingdom and authority here…

I had a chance to view some of the non-Catholic links in this thread, and it never fails to amaze me how many bigoted, misguided, and venomous anti-Catholic websites there are out there. Sad, really…

The Keys and Matthew and Isaiah have been discussed; and I really don’t have anything to add to that.

I confess that I haven’t read every single post here, but I’d like to drop the mitts and have a go if I may…

If we are discussing Peter’s primacy among the Apostles, there are several things we can look at…

Firstly, Peter is mentioned 155 times and the rest of apostles combined are only mentioned 130 times. Peter is also always listed first except in 1 Cor. 3:22 and Gal. 2:9 (which are obvious exceptions to the rule). I would say that that separates him as being pretty special among the Apostles.

Next, I’d like to point to the Gospel of John (my favorite). In the Gospel of John; chapter 21 (verses 15 - 17), we see Jesus charge Peter with governance of His flock;

When they had finished breakfast, Jesus said to Simon Peter, “Simon, son of John, do you love me more than these?” He said to him, “Yes, Lord, you know that I love you.” He said to him, “Feed my lambs.” He then said to him a second time, “Simon, son of John, do you love me?” He said to him, “Yes, Lord, you know that I love you.” He said to him, “Tend my sheep.” He said to him the third time, “Simon, son of John, do you love me?” Peter was distressed that he had said to him a third time, “Do you love me?” and he said to him, “Lord, you know everything; you know that I love you.” (Jesus) said to him, "Feed my sheep.

Did Jesus Christ put PETER in charge of the flock, or not? It sure sounds like it to me. The Divine Shepherd left the Rock in charge of the flock. It’s there in every Bible in black and white. If the Keys aren’t enough to convince an anti-Catholic of conferred authority, this should.

I agree with your post. However, I do think that there will those who will find some reason or other to either refute what you said or distort it in some way. Yet, as it was one said a lie can travel the world before truth gets its shoes on.

 

[rfournier103]

A few more things…

Matt. 14:28-29 - only Peter has the faith to walk on water. No other man in Scripture is said to have the faith to walk on water. This faith ultimately did not fail.

Matt. 16:16, Mark 8:29; John 6:69 - Peter is first among the apostles to confess the divinity of Christ.

Matt. 16:17 - Peter alone is told he has received divine knowledge by a special revelation from God the Father.

Matt. 16:18 - Jesus builds the Church only on Peter, the rock, with the other apostles as the foundation and Jesus as the Head.

Matt. 17:24-25 - the tax collector approaches Peter for Jesus’ tax. Peter is the spokesman for Jesus. He is the Vicar of Christ.

Matt. 17:26-27 - Jesus pays the half-shekel tax with one shekel, for both Jesus and Peter. Peter is Christ’s representative on earth.

Matt. 18:21 - in the presence of the disciples, Peter asks Jesus about the rule of forgiveness. One of many examples where Peter takes a leadership role among the apostles in understanding Jesus’ teachings.

Matt. 19:27 - Peter speaks on behalf of the apostles by telling Jesus that they have left everything to follow Him.

Mark 10:28 - here also, Peter speaks on behalf of the disciples by declaring that they have left everything to follow Him.

Mark 11:21 - Peter speaks on behalf of the disciples in remembering Jesus’ curse on the fig tree.

Mark 14:37 - at Gethsemane, Jesus asks Peter, and no one else, why he was asleep. Peter is accountable to Jesus for his actions on behalf of the apostles because he has been appointed by Jesus as their leader.

Mark 16:7 - Peter is specified by an angel as the leader of the apostles as the angel confirms the resurrection of Christ.

Luke 5:3 – Jesus teaches from Peter’s boat which is metaphor for the Church. Jesus guides Peter and the Church into all truth.

Luke 5:4,10 - Jesus instructs Peter to let down the nets for a catch, and the miraculous catch follows. Peter, the Pope, is the “fisher of men.”

Luke 7:40-50- Jesus addresses Peter regarding the rule of forgiveness and Peter answers on behalf of the disciples. Jesus also singles Peter out and judges his conduct vis-à-vis the conduct of the woman who anointed Him.

Luke 8:45 - when Jesus asked who touched His garment, it is Peter who answers on behalf of the disciples.

Luke 8:51; 9:28; 22:8; Acts 1:13; 3:1,3,11; 4:13,19; 8:14 - Peter is always mentioned before John, the disciple whom Jesus loved.

Luke 9:28;33 - Peter is mentioned first as going to mountain of transfiguration and the only one to speak at the transfiguration.

Luke 12:41 - Peter seeks clarification of a parable on behalf on the disciples. This is part of Peter’s formation as the chief shepherd of the flock after Jesus ascended into heaven.

Luke 22:31-32 - Jesus prays for Peter alone, that his faith may not fail, and charges him to strengthen the rest of the apostles.

Luke 24:12, John 20:4-6 - John arrived at the tomb first but stopped and waited for Peter. Peter then arrived and entered the tomb first.

Luke 24:34 - the two disciples distinguish Peter even though they both had seen the risen Jesus the previous hour. See Luke 24:33.

John 6:68 - after the disciples leave, Peter is the first to speak and confess his belief in Christ after the Eucharistic discourse.

John 13:6-9 - Peter speaks out to the Lord in front of the apostles concerning the washing of feet.

John 13:36; 21:18 - Jesus predicts Peter’s death. Peter was martyred at Rome in 67 A.D. Several hundred years of papal successors were also martyred.

John 21:2-3,11 - Peter leads the fishing and his net does not break. The boat (the “barque of Peter”) is a metaphor for the Church.

John 21:7 - only Peter got out of the boat and ran to the shore to meet Jesus. Peter is the earthly shepherd leading us to God.

 

[rfournier103]

And yet MORE things…

Acts 1:13 - Peter is first when entering upper room after our Lord’s ascension. The first Eucharist and Pentecost were given in this room.

Acts 1:15 - Peter initiates the selection of a successor to Judas right after Jesus ascended into heaven, and no one questions him. Further, if the Church needed a successor to Judas, wouldn’t it need one to Peter? Of course.

Acts 2:14 - Peter is first to speak for the apostles after the Holy Spirit descended upon them at Pentecost. Peter is the first to preach the Gospel.

Acts 2:38 - Peter gives first preaching in the early Church on repentance and baptism in the name of Jesus Christ.

Acts 3:1,3,4 - Peter is mentioned first as going to the Temple to pray.

Acts 3:6-7 - Peter works the first healing of the apostles.

Acts 3:12-26, 4:8-12 - Peter teaches the early Church the healing through Jesus and that there is no salvation other than Christ.

Acts 5:3 - Peter declares the first anathema of Ananias and Sapphira which is ratified by God, and brings about their death. Peter exercises his binding authority.

Acts 5:15 - Peter’s shadow has healing power. No other apostle is said to have this power.

Acts 8:14 - Peter is mentioned first in conferring the sacrament of confirmation.

Acts 8:20-23 - Peter casts judgment on Simon’s quest for gaining authority through the laying on of hands. Peter exercises his binding and loosing authority.

Acts 9:32-34 - Peter is mentioned first among the apostles and works the healing of Aeneas.

Acts 9:38-40 - Peter is mentioned first among the apostles and raises Tabitha from the dead.

Acts 10:5 - Cornelius is told by an angel to call upon Peter. Angels are messengers of God. Peter was granted this divine vision.

Acts 10:34-48, 11:1-18 - Peter is first to teach about salvation for all (Jews and Gentiles).

Acts 12:5 - this verse implies that the “whole Church” offered “earnest prayers” for Peter, their leader, during his imprisonment.

Acts 15:7-12 - Peter resolves the first doctrinal issue on circumcision at the Church’s first council at Jerusalem, and no one questions him. After Peter the Papa spoke, all were kept silent.

Acts 15:12 - only after Peter (the Pope) speaks do Paul and Barnabas (bishops) speak in support of Peter’s definitive teaching.

Acts 15:13-14 - then James speaks to further acknowledge Peter’s definitive teaching. “Simeon (Peter) has related how God first visited…”

Rom. 15:20 - Paul says he doesn’t want to build on “another man’s foundation” referring to Peter, who built the Church in Rome.

1 Cor. 9:5 – Peter is distinguished from the rest of the apostles and brethren of the Lord.

1 Cor. 15:4-8 - Paul distinguishes Jesus’ post-resurrection appearances to Peter from those of the other apostles. Christ appeared “to Cephas, then to the twelve.”

Gal.1:18 - Paul spends fifteen days with Peter privately before beginning his ministry, even after Christ’s Revelation to Paul.

1 Peter 5:1 - Peter acts as the chief bishop by “exhorting” all the other bishops and elders of the Church.

2 Peter 1:14 - Peter writes about Jesus’ prediction of Peter’s death, embracing the eventual martyrdom that he would suffer.

2 Peter 3:16 - Peter is making a judgment on the proper interpretation of Paul’s letters. Peter is the chief shepherd of the flock.

Matt. 23:11; Mark 9:35; 10:44 - yet Peter, as the first, humbled himself to be the last and servant of all servants.

 

[spina1953]

A few more things…

Matt. 14:28-29 - only Peter has the faith to walk on water. No other man in Scripture is said to have the faith to walk on water. This faith ultimately did not fail.

Matt. 16:16, Mark 8:29; John 6:69 - Peter is first among the apostles to confess the divinity of Christ.

Matt. 16:17 - Peter alone is told he has received divine knowledge by a special revelation from God the Father.

Matt. 16:18 - Jesus builds the Church only on Peter, the rock, with the other apostles as the foundation and Jesus as the Head.

Matt. 17:24-25 - the tax collector approaches Peter for Jesus’ tax. Peter is the spokesman for Jesus. He is the Vicar of Christ.

Matt. 17:26-27 - Jesus pays the half-shekel tax with one shekel, for both Jesus and Peter. Peter is Christ’s representative on earth.

Matt. 18:21 - in the presence of the disciples, Peter asks Jesus about the rule of forgiveness. One of many examples where Peter takes a leadership role among the apostles in understanding Jesus’ teachings.

Matt. 19:27 - Peter speaks on behalf of the apostles by telling Jesus that they have left everything to follow Him.

Mark 10:28 - here also, Peter speaks on behalf of the disciples by declaring that they have left everything to follow Him.

Mark 11:21 - Peter speaks on behalf of the disciples in remembering Jesus’ curse on the fig tree.

Mark 14:37 - at Gethsemane, Jesus asks Peter, and no one else, why he was asleep. Peter is accountable to Jesus for his actions on behalf of the apostles because he has been appointed by Jesus as their leader.

Mark 16:7 - Peter is specified by an angel as the leader of the apostles as the angel confirms the resurrection of Christ.

Luke 5:3 – Jesus teaches from Peter’s boat which is metaphor for the Church. Jesus guides Peter and the Church into all truth.

Luke 5:4,10 - Jesus instructs Peter to let down the nets for a catch, and the miraculous catch follows. Peter, the Pope, is the “fisher of men.”

Luke 7:40-50- Jesus addresses Peter regarding the rule of forgiveness and Peter answers on behalf of the disciples. Jesus also singles Peter out and judges his conduct vis-à-vis the conduct of the woman who anointed Him.

Luke 8:45 - when Jesus asked who touched His garment, it is Peter who answers on behalf of the disciples.

Luke 8:51; 9:28; 22:8; Acts 1:13; 3:1,3,11; 4:13,19; 8:14 - Peter is always mentioned before John, the disciple whom Jesus loved.

Luke 9:28;33 - Peter is mentioned first as going to mountain of transfiguration and the only one to speak at the transfiguration.

Luke 12:41 - Peter seeks clarification of a parable on behalf on the disciples. This is part of Peter’s formation as the chief shepherd of the flock after Jesus ascended into heaven.

Luke 22:31-32 - Jesus prays for Peter alone, that his faith may not fail, and charges him to strengthen the rest of the apostles.

Luke 24:12, John 20:4-6 - John arrived at the tomb first but stopped and waited for Peter. Peter then arrived and entered the tomb first.

Luke 24:34 - the two disciples distinguish Peter even though they both had seen the risen Jesus the previous hour. See Luke 24:33.

John 6:68 - after the disciples leave, Peter is the first to speak and confess his belief in Christ after the Eucharistic discourse.

John 13:6-9 - Peter speaks out to the Lord in front of the apostles concerning the washing of feet.

John 13:36; 21:18 - Jesus predicts Peter’s death. Peter was martyred at Rome in 67 A.D. Several hundred years of papal successors were also martyred.

John 21:2-3,11 - Peter leads the fishing and his net does not break. The boat (the “barque of Peter”) is a metaphor for the Church.

John 21:7 - only Peter got out of the boat and ran to the shore to meet Jesus. Peter is the earthly shepherd leading us to God.

great post! Its hard to add anything to such good thinking!

 

[rfournier103]

Interesting debate about the Keys to the Kingdom and authority here…

I had a chance to view some of the non-Catholic links in this thread, and it never fails to amaze me how many bigoted, misguided, and venomous anti-Catholic websites there are out there. Sad, really…

The Keys and Matthew and Isaiah have been discussed; and I really don’t have anything to add to that.

I confess that I haven’t read every single post here, but I’d like to drop the mitts and have a go if I may…

If we are discussing Peter’s primacy among the Apostles, there are several things we can look at…

Firstly, Peter is mentioned 155 times and the rest of apostles combined are only mentioned 130 times. Peter is also always listed first except in 1 Cor. 3:22 and Gal. 2:9 (which are obvious exceptions to the rule). I would say that that separates him as being pretty special among the Apostles.

Next, I’d like to point to the Gospel of John (my favorite). In the Gospel of John; chapter 21 (verses 15 - 17), we see Jesus charge Peter with governance of His flock;

When they had finished breakfast, Jesus said to Simon Peter, “Simon, son of John, do you love me more than these?” He said to him, “Yes, Lord, you know that I love you.” He said to him, “Feed my lambs.” He then said to him a second time, “Simon, son of John, do you love me?” He said to him, “Yes, Lord, you know that I love you.” He said to him, “Tend my sheep.” He said to him the third time, “Simon, son of John, do you love me?” Peter was distressed that he had said to him a third time, “Do you love me?” and he said to him, “Lord, you know everything; you know that I love you.” (Jesus) said to him, "Feed my sheep.

Did Jesus Christ put PETER in charge of the flock, or not? It sure sounds like it to me. The Divine Shepherd left the Rock in charge of the flock. It’s there in every Bible in black and white. If the Keys aren’t enough to convince an anti-Catholic of conferred authority, this should.

I agree with your post. However, I do think that there will those who will find some reason or other to either refute what you said or distort it in some way. Yet, as it was one said a lie can travel the world before truth gets its shoes on.

Oh I know…

There are some people out there that would ignore enough evidence to plug up the Charles River.

Sometimes apologetics feels like this:
A: ________ is what we believe.

B: Oh? And where is that in the Bible?

A: You may find our evidence for that belief here; _________

B: Don’t be silly!!! It’s plainly obvious that’s not what that passage means.

 

[JamesTheJust]

You’re completely missing what I’m talking about and what the verse is saying. The verse is talking about the church groups located in those several different towns.

But all those local congregations were part of the Catholic (universal) Church.

Okay – you brought in the Greek – I just looked up ‘churches’ – referred me to #1577 – Greek = ecclesia = from a compound of 1573 and 2564 “A calling out …a religious congregation ( Jewish synagogue or Christian community of members on earth… assembly, church.” And that’s from Strong’s.

It can also be defined as “the whole body of Christians scattered throughout the earth”. It’s used that way 74 times in Scripture, over 2x more than the next most common definition.

And again – Paul and Silas went on several missionary journeys as the Holy Spirit led them – sharing the gospel / Jesus Christ risen / and as people chose to believe / accept / they came together and formed a ‘group of believers’ / a congregation. Two of those missionary journeys were to stop Back at those ‘groups of believers / congregations’ to encourage them in their growth As believers.

And they appointed bishops to oversee all the congregations they founded (cf. 2 Timothy 2:2, etc.).

And, yes, I DO know that the ‘universal’ church is in the Bible – only we have different definitions.

Nobody before the 16th Century defined “Universal Church” the way you do. I challenge you to find a single Church Father who did.

Also, I already refuted the idea of an invisible Church back in post #179.

Okay – the church at Smyrna – Revelation 2 – he’s also writing to the church at Ephesis and Thyatira, and Sardis and Philedelphia – which are all separate bodies of believers / churches / congregations. So - YOUR point?

Nobody mentioned Revelation 2, as far as I know.

And you Also commented 'in the letter to Smyrna – calling it the Catholic church? – the early church bishop who wrote to the church? Where is That?

St Ignatius of Antioch, who was St John the Apostle’s closest disciple and successor of St Mark the Evangelist as Bishop of Antioch, said these things in 107 AD:

“See that you all follow the bishop, even as Jesus Christ does the Father, and the presbytery as you would the apostles; and reverence the deacons, as being the institution of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is administered either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude of the people also be; even as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church.” (Epistle to the Smyrnaeans, Ch 8)

“But inasmuch as love suffers me not to be silent in regard to you, I have therefore taken upon me first to exhort you that you would all run together in accordance with the will of God. For even Jesus Christ, our inseparable life, is the manifested will of the Father; as also bishops, settled everywhere to the utmost bounds of the earth, are so by the will of Jesus Christ… Let us be careful, then, not to set ourselves in opposition to the bishop, in order that we may be subject to God.” (Epistle to the Ephesians, Ch 3, 5)

“Ignatius, also called Theophorus, to the Church that has found mercy in the greatness of the Most High Father and in Jesus Christ, his only son; to the Church [Rome] beloved and enlightened after the love of Jesus Christ, our God, by the will of him that has willed everything which is; to **the Church which also holds the presidency in the place of the country of the Romans ** worthy of God, worthy of honor, worthy of blessing, worthy of praise, worthy of success, worthy of sanctification, and because you hold the presidency of love, named after Christ and named after the Father; here therefore do I salute in the name of Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father.” (Epistle to the Romans, Introduction)

All emphases are mine.**

 

[Mr_Clean]

@rfournier103 - Nice suppressive fire. You are supposed to yell “INCOMING!” before the nukes hit.

 

[Church_Militant]

Church militant

You’re completely missing what I’m talking about and what the verse is saying. The verse is talking about the church groups located in those several different towns.

Didn’t miss it. It’s a given, however, the historical point there is that they were all Catholic in belief and practice and even called themselves the Catholic Church.

Okay – you brought in the Greek – I just looked up ‘churches’ – referred me to #1577 – Greek = ecclesia = from a compound of 1573 and 2564 “A calling out …a religious congregation ( Jewish synagogue or Christian community of members on earth… assembly, church.” And that’s from Strong’s.

And? You totally ignored the very relevant point of the Greek study there, which is that the Greek words which follow your citation actually say ekklhsia kaq olhV and so they actually designate that those churches were all Catholic.There is actually no reason that that verse could not be translated "[31] Now the [Catholic] church had peace [in] Judea, and Galilee, and Samaria; and was edified, walking in the fear of the Lord, and was filled with the consolation of the Holy Ghost." But the fact is that it was such a given that they didn’t bother.***

---

And again – Paul and Silas went on several missionary journeys as the Holy Spirit led them – sharing the gospel / Jesus Christ risen / and as people chose to believe / accept / they came together and formed a ‘group of believers’ / a congregation. Two of those missionary journeys were to stop Back at those ‘groups of believers / congregations’ to encourage them in their growth As believers.

No argument there CL, but those churches (We would call them parishes or diocese) were Catholic and again the writings of the early church indicate this very clearly. Please see my research article entitled What Was Authentic Early Christian Worship Really Like? from a guy who was there and even gave his life for it.

And, yes, I DO know that the ‘universal’ church is in the Bible – only we have different definitions. Go figure

The issue becomes a matter of accuracy, both Biblically and historically. As we are told in the New Testament, "[21] But prove all things; hold fast that which is good." (1st Thessalonians 5:21)

Okay – the church at Smyrna – Revelation 2 – he’s also writing to the church at Ephesis and Thyatira, and Sardis and Philedelphia – which are all separate bodies of believers / churches / congregations. So - YOUR point?

Just pointing out the scriptural and historical connection so you’d have a point of reference you’d recognize.

And you Also commented 'in the letter to Smyrna – calling it the Catholic church? – the early church bishop who wrote to the church? Where is That?

I’m so glad that you asked. You’ll find it in The Epistle of Ignatius to the Smyrnaeans down in CHAP. VIII.–LET NOTHING BE DONE WITHOUT THE BISHOP…

(As an aside CL, I might suggest that you also take careful note of CHAP. VII as well with regard to this early church bishop’s statements about communion and compare his very clear remarks to your own beliefs and experience. Feel free to PM me to discuss this since it will be off topic in this thread. I detail my study of this in my blog article The Eucharist IS Scriptural.)
[sign]God bless![/sign]

 

[Church_Militant]

@rfournier103 - Nice suppressive fire. You are supposed to yell “INCOMING!” before the nukes hit.

i766.photobucket.com/albums/xx309/Army454/Nuke.gif

 

[rfournier103]

In what sense is Peter distinct for having the keys? What can he do that the other apostles can’t?

In Matt. 14:28-29, St. Peter walked on water. Did ANYONE ELSE in Scripture walk on water? I can only think of One Other who did… I’d say that in itself makes him pretty distinct.

Might I also ask why in John 21:15 - in front of the Apostles- does Jesus ask Peter if he loves Him “more than these;” which refers to the other Apostles? Could it be because Peter is the head of the Apostolic See? Hmm?

Also, in John 21:15-17; Jesus charges Peter to “feed My lambs,” “tend My sheep,” “feed My sheep.” Was Jesus speaking to the other Apostles? No. He wasn’t.

Lastly I would ask you to review Acts 5:15. There you will see that St. Peter’s shadow has healing power. No other Apostle is said to have this power.

I hope this was helpful for you. God bless!

 

[rfournier103]

i766.photobucket.com/albums/xx309/Army454/Nuke.gif

Yeah… I guess I went to “DEFCON - 1” - Global thermonuclear war…

I didn’t WANT to launch the nukes at them… I felt I “owed” it to them (a paraphrase of Ted Knight in “Caddyshack”).

To use a hockey idiom; sometimes I see these debates or posts and just have to “drop the gloves”.

 

[spina1953]

Oh I know…

There are some people out there that would ignore enough evidence to plug up the Charles River.

Sometimes apologetics feels like this:
A: ________ is what we believe.

B: Oh? And where is that in the Bible?

A: You may find our evidence for that belief here; _________

B: Don’t be silly!!! It’s plainly obvious that’s not what that passage means.

I agree with you on that! It seems to me that it boils down to the issue of interpretation, since it is the key one because there is a difference between what Scripture says and what Scripture means. To read is to interpret, and many individuals have tried to interpret Scriptures in a way contrary to what the Churchy taught at a particular time. The Bible in many ways became a source of division instead of unity. Therefore, the Bible then became in effect a weapon by Christian against Christian, each arguing that his/her own particular interpretation of Scripture; the Bible’s words was the only correct meaning. This then it seems to me to be the real problem, which bears out what Peter said about those who end up distorting Scripture to their own end.

 

[crochet_lady]

Referring way back to #216 – about the ‘churches’ being referred to. Acts 12 and 13 – the last verse of ch12 “And Barnabas and Saul returned from Jerusalem when they had fulfilled their ministry, and they also took with them John whose surname was Mark.”
Then ch 13 :1 "Now in the church that was at Antioch there were certain prophets and teachers; Barnabas, Simeon who was called Niger, Lucius of Cyrene, Manaen who had been brought up with Herod the tetrarch, and Saul.
vs 2 “As they ministered to the Lord and fasted, the Holy Spirit said, Now separate to Me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them.”
vs 3 "Then, having fasted and prayed, and laid hands on them, they sent them away.
vs 4 "So, being sent out by the Holy Spirit, they went down to Seleucia, and from there they sailed to Cyprus.
vs 5 "And when they arrived in Salamis, they preached the word of God in the synagogues of the Jews. They also had John as their assistant.
vs 9 "Then Saul who also is called Paul, filled with the Holy Spirit, looked intently at him and said …
vs 13 "Now when Paul and his party set sail from Paphos, they came to Perga in Pamphylia, and John, departing from them, returned to Jerusalem.
vs 46 "Then Paul and jBarnabas grew bold and said, It was necessary that the word of God should be spoken to you first, but since you reject it, and judge your selvesl unworthy of everlasting life, behold, we turn to the Gentiles. For the Lord has commanded us. “I have set you as a light to the Gentiles, that you should be for salvation to the ends of the earth.”

Then in ch 15 : 36 “Then after some days Paul said to Barnabas, Let us now go back and visit our brethren in every city where we have preached the word of the Lord, and see how they are doing’”

What we Are observing is God Through the Holy Spirit working in Paul / Barnabas 's ministry. And Paul was inspired / given his words by the Holy Spirit to write Many books of the New Testament.

And God was Also working with Peter in Peter’s ministry. Peter was told by God to 'feed My sheep" 3 times just to make sure Peter got the point. And he Also was doing his ministry for God.

And, yes,. to another poster – The Apostles Were given various powers – and Peter was one of those chosen Apostles.

And looking back in the Old Testament – Moses was chosen by God to lead His Children out of their bondage in Egypt. And Noah was chosen by God to build the ark that saved his family from being destroyed and re-starting life on earth. So - we see two Other men who were chosen by God to do Great things.

 

[JamesTheJust]

vs 3 "Then, having fasted and prayed, and laid hands on them they sent them away.

This verse is actually important. Do you or your denomination fast? Do you lay hands? No, you don’t. But the Apostles did, and they did the latter specifically to establish an authority over the local congregations they founded, who in turn reported to them.

What we Are observing is God Through the Holy Spirit working in Paul / Barnabas 's ministry. And Paul was inspired / given his words by the Holy Spirit to write Many books of the New Testament.

But Paul’s ministry was initially oral. Only later was he inspired to write epistles. Now, let’s look at one particular verse (though there are others which prove the same point):

1 Thessalonians 2:13 And we also thank God constantly for this, that when you received the word of God which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men but as what it really is, the word of God, which is at work in you believers.

This is Paul’s first epistle to the Thessalonians, yet, they had already “received the word of God which they heard from [Paul & Co.]” How could this be? The only explanation is that Paul’s oral teachings were inspired. These later were passed down and became Sacred Tradition.

And God was Also working with Peter in Peter’s ministry. Peter was told by God to 'feed My sheep" 3 times just to make sure Peter got the point. And he Also was doing his ministry for God.

That’s some interesting imagery, isn’t it? Christ has constantly said that He is the Good Shepherd; yet, here, he gives Peter the powers of a Shepherd. What could this mean? Could it be that Peter was given the power to represent Christ on earth? To be His Vicar?

And, yes,. to another poster – The Apostles Were given various powers

Among those powers were the powers to forgive sins (cf. John 20:20-23) and to rule over the Church (cf. Ephesians 2:19-20)

and Peter was one of those chosen Apostles.

He was chief among them as well.

And looking back in the Old Testament – Moses was chosen by God to lead His Children out of their bondage in Egypt. And Noah was chosen by God to build the ark that saved his family from being destroyed and re-starting life on earth. So - we see two Other men who were chosen by God to do Great things.

Through salvation history, there have been a series of Covenants. First, a marriage under Adam. Then a family under Noah. Then a tribe under Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Then twelve tribes, comprising one nation, under Moses and Joshua, the Judges, and the Kings.

And what do we have today, in the New, Eternal, and Perfect Covenant? We have a Universal Church, spread to all the corners of the Earth, under… You guessed it… Peter and his successors!

 

[rfournier103]

And God was Also working with Peter in Peter’s ministry. Peter was told by God to 'feed My sheep" 3 times just to make sure Peter got the point. And he Also was doing his ministry for God.

And, yes,. to another poster – The Apostles Were given various powers – and Peter was one of those chosen Apostles.

And looking back in the Old Testament – Moses was chosen by God to lead His Children out of their bondage in Egypt. And Noah was chosen by God to build the ark that saved his family from being destroyed and re-starting life on earth. So - we see two Other men who were chosen by God to do Great things.

Absolutely! God chooses us ALL to do all kinds of things. If we all sat around and waited for God to work some kind of magic miracle to do everything, how much would get done? Don’t we ALL toil in the vineyard of the LORD?

Look, CrochetLady; nobody here would ever imply that ONLY one guy was chosen by God to perform great things. Moses, Noah, Mary, Joseph, Peter, Paul, and the authors of the Bible ALL lived their lives for God’s will, didn’t they? Of course they did.

Peter was told by God to 'feed My sheep" 3 times just to make sure Peter got the point.

And WHOSE interpretation is that? Yours? Your pastor’s? Did the other Apostles NOT need to be told so strenuously; and therefore Jesus singled out Peter because he couldn’t be trusted to do anything right? HOW DO YOU (I’m talking to YOU, CrochetLady) know that Jesus wasn’t entrusting Peter with a sacred duty to be a LEADER? The Church has been teaching this for about two thousand (2,000) years. Your Baptist denomination has been with us a scant 400 years (give or take a year).

WHO was the leader of the Church from 33 AD (Jesus’s ascension) until circa. 393 AD (the compilation of the Holy Bible)? What kind of country would we live in if the Founding Fathers framed a Constitution, and left no Government?

The Sacred Scriptures are interpreted for us by the One, Holy, Catholic (universal), and Apostolic Church because the CHURCH IS THE PILLAR AND GROUND OF TRUTH (1 Tim 3:15), and that SCRIPTURE IS NOT OPEN TO PERSONAL INTERPRETATION (2 Peter 1:20).

Ultimately, we all wish to share in Christ’s Heavenly Kingdom. We rely on those called by the Holy Spirit to minister to us, to help us interpret the Scriptures, and to ensure we follow the path Jesus wishes us to. I will pray for you, Crochet Lady.

 

[ShanPO]

Referring way back to #216 – about the ‘churches’ being referred to. Acts 12 and 13 – the last verse of ch12 “And Barnabas and Saul returned from Jerusalem when they had fulfilled their ministry, and they also took with them John whose surname was Mark.”
Then ch 13 :1 "Now in the church that was at Antioch there were certain prophets and teachers; Barnabas, Simeon who was called Niger, Lucius of Cyrene, Manaen who had been brought up with Herod the tetrarch, and Saul.
vs 2 “As they ministered to the Lord and fasted, the Holy Spirit said, Now separate to Me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them.”
vs 3 "Then, having fasted and prayed, and laid hands on them, they sent them away.
vs 4 "So, being sent out by the Holy Spirit, they went down to Seleucia, and from there they sailed to Cyprus.
vs 5 "And when they arrived in Salamis, they preached the word of God in the synagogues of the Jews. They also had John as their assistant.
vs 9 "Then Saul who also is called Paul, filled with the Holy Spirit, looked intently at him and said …
vs 13 "Now when Paul and his party set sail from Paphos, they came to Perga in Pamphylia, and John, departing from them, returned to Jerusalem.
vs 46 "Then Paul and jBarnabas grew bold and said, It was necessary that the word of God should be spoken to you first, but since you reject it, and judge your selvesl unworthy of everlasting life, behold, we turn to the Gentiles. For the Lord has commanded us. “I have set you as a light to the Gentiles, that you should be for salvation to the ends of the earth.”

Then in ch 15 : 36 “Then after some days Paul said to Barnabas, Let us now go back and visit our brethren in every city where we have preached the word of the Lord, and see how they are doing’”

What we Are observing is God Through the Holy Spirit working in Paul / Barnabas 's ministry. And Paul was inspired / given his words by the Holy Spirit to write Many books of the New Testament.

And God was Also working with Peter in Peter’s ministry. Peter was told by God to 'feed My sheep" 3 times just to make sure Peter got the point. And he Also was doing his ministry for God.

And, yes,. to another poster – The Apostles Were given various powers – and Peter was one of those chosen Apostles.

And looking back in the Old Testament – Moses was chosen by God to lead His Children out of their bondage in Egypt. And Noah was chosen by God to build the ark that saved his family from being destroyed and re-starting life on earth. So - we see two Other men who were chosen by God to do Great things.

Do you think those churches taught opposing things, like churches do today?

 

[petra22]

Ultimately, we all wish to share in Christ’s Heavenly Kingdom. We rely on those called by the Holy Spirit to minister to us, to help us interpret the Scriptures, and to ensure we follow the path Jesus wishes us to. I will pray for you, Crochet Lady.

I’m praying, too, for all who search for the truth.

Our Father who art in heaven, hallowed be Thy name.
Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread and forgive us our trespasses,
As we forgive those who trespass against us.
And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil. Amen.