Split! MyFavoriteMartin's "One True Church" Thread

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RyanL:
Martin,

Couple of yes/no questions for you:
  1. Did the Christian Church fall into a Great Apostacy until Reformer X “revived” the Gospel?
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a growing apostasy for certain
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RyanL:
  1. Can you actually name anyone from the first 1000+ years of Christian history who taught the same thing you do about the Gospel (again, naming a NT writer begs the question)?
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Once again first tell me why you say the first 1000 years, but all your other points revolve around reformation ie. 1500’s
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RyanL:
  1. If I can show you a Catholic Church prior to the 3rd Century, would you believe that the Catholic Church is the Church which Christ founded?
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Are you talking the term catholic? meaning universal or catholic as in rcc?
 
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myfavoritmartin:
Once again first tell me why you say the first 1000 years, but all your other points revolve around reformation ie. 1500’s
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Because the Orthodox went into schism in 1054 but they are very similar in belief despite this. They do not in any way resemble Protestantism so you would not find Protestant beliefs until the 1500s.
 
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NotWorthy:
OK, you’ve just proved also that Judas had primacy over Jesus and the Apostles as he managed the finances. Is this what you are saying?

Notworthy
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The point here is the scripture quoted by aaron gives no more relevance to peter’s primacy than any number of scripture I could give to prove rather that paul had primacy.
 
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Eden:
Because the Orthodox went into schism in 1054 but they are very similar in belief despite this. They do not in any way resemble Protestantism so you would not find Protestant beliefs until the 1500s.
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Claudius of Turin 817 ad
 
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Eden:
Can you expand upon this as an answer instead of just putting a name and date please?
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In the 8th century the Bishop Claudius of Turin was appointed by the Holy Roman Emperor Luis in 817 to the see of Turin. Claudius, as Bishop of Turin, made a series of attacks on image worship, relics, pilgrimages, intercession of the saints, the adoration of the cross and every artistic rendition about biblical stories.
 
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myfavoritmartin:
what say you ryan?
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I say look elsewhere:
We know, according to the Evangelist, that the words of the Lord savior were not understood, when he spoke to Peter, “You are Peter and upon this rock I will build my church and I will give you the keys of heaven.” (Matthew 16:18-19) Because of these words spoken by the Lord, the race of ignorant men, having disregarded the understanding of all spiritual things, wish to go to Rome in order to acquire eternal life. He who understands the keys of the kingdom of heaven as given above does not require that the intercession of the blessed Peter be limited to one locale. If we subtly consider the proper meaning of the words of the Lord, it was not said by him, “Whatever you loose in heaven will be loosed on earth, and whatever you bind in heaven will be held bound on earth.” From this it is known that the ministry is granted to the overseers of the church only as long as they are on pilgrimage in the mortal body. When they pay the debt of death, those who succeed them in their place obtain the same judicial power, as it is written, “Instead of your fathers, sons are born to you; you will make them princes over all the earth.” (Psalms 45:16; 44:17 in the Vulgate) . . . Hear this, you who are fools among the people and you who were once silly and sought the intercession of the apostle by going to Rome . . .
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[You object] against me that the apostolic lord is upset with me-you also say that you are displeased with me. You said this of Paschal, bishop of the Roman church, who has since left this present life. A man is said to be apostolic who is guardian of the apostle or who exercises the office of an apostle. Surely a man should not be called apostolic who simply sits on the apostolic throne, but who carries out the office. The Lord said about those who hold a place, but do not carry out the office, “The scribes and the Pharisees have sitten on the chair of Moses. All things therefore whatsoever they shall say to you, observe and do; but according to their works do not. For they say, and do not.” (Matthew 23:2-3)
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Source.

To be sure, there are some very critical things being said; however, this man is not Protestant.

It is true that he is denouncing the usage of any image in worship, but he also says implicitly asserts the following things:
  1. Apostolic Succession
  2. Actual meaning behind the phrase “binding and loosing”, such that there is something a holder of the office of the Apostles can do in this life which others cannot (i.e., the forgiveness of sins)
  3. An office of Apostle which those in the present day have - this is the office of Bishop.
Oh, and did I forget to mention that Claudius is a CATHOLIC BISHOP?!? Doesn’t that seem to imply that he believes in Holy Orders?!?

Here’s some more:
"I have received from some boorish bearer your letter with the appended treatise, filled as they are with babbling and foolishness. In the treatise you say that you are troubled by that which Rumor is saying about me from Italy throughout Gaul to the borders of Spain, implying that I am preaching some new sect against the rule of the Catholic faith. The charge is in all ways most false
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… It came to pass that, after I was compelled to undertake the burden of the pastoral office I came to the city of Turin in Italy, sent by Louis, that pious prince and son of the Lord’s holy Catholic church
Source.

Hmmph…seems you’ve fallen a bit short.

Want to try again?

God Bless,
RyanL
 
myfavoritemartian:
Wouldn’t that make Roman Catholic somewhat of an oxymoron?
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The Catholic Church does not call itself the Roman Catholic Church. Other Christians use the term the Roman Catholic Church. Actually, the church of Rome refers to the diocese of Rome.
 

Claudius of Turin was an 8th Century Bishop who fought against the growing errors of themedieval church.Claudius spent three years as court chaplain to Louis (778-840) king of Aquitaine. Louiscommissioned Claudius to write commentaries on nearly all the books of the Bible for theeducation of the clergy. Most of these commentaries were based on earlier works by Augustine,Jerome and other Latin Fathers. When Louis became Emperor of the Holy Roman Empire in 813 heappointed Claudius to the see of Turin in 817. Under the favourable circumstances resulting fromthe Council of Frankfurt in 794 (which amongst other things condemned the decree of the SecondCouncil of Nicaea (787) on the worship of icons) Claudius set about to reform the church.Claudius, commencing his role as Bishop of Turin, spoke out against a number of excesses in theChurch. He made a series of attacks on image worship, relics, pilgrimages, intercession of thesaints, the adoration of the cross and every visible symbol of Christ’s life. He found the Italianchurches full of idolatry and sought to reverse this trend:‘I found all the churches filled with sordid images, which are anathematized and contrary to trueteaching. Since everyone was honouring them, I undertook their destruction single-handedly.’He denounced the worship of images and specifically the adoration of the cross saying: ‘BecauseChrist suffered on it we might also worship every virgin because he was born of a virgin, everymanger because he was laid in a manger, every ship because he taught from a ship, yea, every assbecause he rode on as *** into Jerusalem.’He also spoke against the intercession of the saints, ‘whoever seeks from any creature in heaven oron earth the salvation which he should seek from God alone, is an idolater. The departed saintsthemselves do not wish to be worshipped by us and cannot help us. While we live we may aid eachother by prayers, but not after death.’Claudius also taught publicly that the apostolic office of St Peter ceased with his life, that the“power of the keys” passed to the whole Episcopal order and he therefore opposed the pilgrimagesto Rome that sought intercession from the Apostle Peter. He said ‘there is no greater scandal thatto prohibit a man from taking that path by which he is able to travel to eternal joys.’​

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He had little regard for the Roman see and courted much scorn and criticism. He was censured byPope Paschalis I, and opposed by his old friend the Abbot Theodemir of Nismes to whom he haddedicated his lost commentary of Leviticus (823). He was also opposed by Dungal (of Scotland orIreland, about 827), and by Bishop Jonas of Orleans (840), who unjustly charged him with theAdoptionist and even the Arian heresy. The all-powerful influence of the popes, the sensuoustendency of the age, the ignorance of the clergy, and the general lack of knowledge amongst thepeople combined to result in the ultimate victory of image worship in Italy and even France.All references from: Early Medieval Theology, George McCracken & Allen Cabaniss(Philadelphia, 1957).
 
And by the way, you still haven’t answered yes/no to any of my “3 questions”.

God Bless,
RyanL
 
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myfavoritmartin:
Claudius of Turin was an 8th Century Bishop who fought against the growing errors…blah, blah, blah…
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You see, I went to his writings - you went to what someone else said about him. You might check out my second link where the original writings are disected a little more closely.

Better luck next time.

God Bless,
RyanL
 
Your question…
2. Can you actually name anyone from the first 1000+ years of Christian history who taught the same thing you do about the Gospel (again, naming a NT writer begs the question)?

I answered it perfectly.
You should research further into him.
Martin Luther was rc also what’s your point?

do I need to go up in the thread reitirate how you arrived at asking that question and then summarize it for you?
 
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myfavoritmartin:
The point here is the scripture quoted by aaron gives no more relevance to peter’s primacy than any number of scripture I could give to prove rather that paul had primacy.
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over who??

Peter and the rest
Peter and the others
Peter listed first, Judas last
 
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myfavoritmartin:
I answered it perfectly.
You should research further into him.
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Give me a link to more of his writings - all the writings I could find were by a Catholic Bishop who believed in Apostolic Succession.
Martin Luther was rc also what’s your point?
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Martin Luther wasn’t in the first 1000 years of Christian History. I’ll readily agree that he believed something similar to what you believe (although no Protestants I’m aware of still teach the things the “Reformers” believed - like the perpetual virginity of Mary or the evils of contraception).

However, the point at issue isn’t Luther - the point at issue is “where’s the beef”? Where’s your Gospel prior to 1000 AD?
do I need to go up in the thread reitirate how you arrived at asking that question and then summarize it for you?
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Perhaps, but only if it will result in you giving me a yes/no answer to any of my questions…:rolleyes:

God Bless,
RyanL
 
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myfavoritmartin:
Ryan,

Try studying the waldensian’s
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I have - are you claiming that you believe what they did?

Are you claiming that they were the “true Christians”?

Please, please, please say yes…

God Bless,
RyanL
 
While Claudius definatly criticizes the use of images, it does not really establish that he is a Protestant. I think what Ryan and others are looking for are the ideas of Sola Scriptura and Sola Fide, the two pillars of Protestantism.
 
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RyanL:
I have - are you claiming that you believe what they did?

Are you claiming that they were the “true Christians”?

Please, please, please say yes…

God Bless,
RyanL
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Lol…
 
valient Lucy:
While Claudius definatly criticizes the use of images, it does not really establish that he is a Protestant. I think what Ryan and others are looking for are the ideas of Sola Scriptura and Sola Fide, the two pillars of Protestantism.
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I once had a RABID anti-Catholic claim–for weeks–that St. Patrick wasn’t Catholic because he didn’t “sound like it.” :rolleyes:
 
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