C
Church_Militant
Guest
Too late…already did…but the apostolic succession and Petrine Primacy are interlocking concepts. The above passage shows BOTH.
Pax tecum,
- Status
Pax tecum,
M
myfavoritmartin
Guest
The Holy Bible
no!
no
Why do you say that he would say nope anymore than Peter?
I wasn’t trying to
Is this a compliment or a rip?
Petra or Petro?
I didn’t start this thread! the threads I’ve started are more trying to understand because I have a son being brought up catholic, but all that aside if one soul out of the 700-800 people viewing this thread becomes a born again christian as spoken in john chapter 3, then I would say I am doing this to evangelize.
see above
Surely not my own, in fact i’ve been doing this at work and my work is being affected by it, but sometimes the bigger picture is more important.
I doubt this is true, I’ve only been studying at home in the evenings for about a year, I am a mere lay person.
I do!
Church=non denominational universal body of believers, not an organization. (herein lies our diffrence)
The church does have authority, the church as described above.
He has, my friend He has. Amen
D
djrakowski
Guest
You have failed to explain how your theoretical church of all true believers can have authority when so many branches of it disagree on such matters as baptism (when, what effect it has), eternal security, the role of tradition in the development of doctrine, etc.
M
Mickey
Guest
3: Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born anew, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
4: Nicode’mus said to him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?”
5: Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
So you are here to make sure people get baptized?
M
Mickey
Guest
Praise the Lord!
M
myfavoritmartin
Guest
Mickey said:3: Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born anew, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
4: Nicode’mus said to him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?”
5: Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
So you are here to make sure people get baptized?
Thank you for asking for clarification.
Here are some important scriptures
Jhn 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Jhn 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
M
Mickey
Guest
N
Nicene
Guest
You forgot these:
Jn 7:38 He who believes in me, as the scripture has said, ‘Out of his heart shall flow rivers of living water.’ 39 Now this he said about the Spirit, which those who believed in him were to recieve; for as yet the Spirit had not yet been given, because Jesus was not yet glorified. (Living water)
Acts 2:38 And Peter said to them, “Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall recieve the gift of the Holy Spirit.” (water and spirit i.e. water and living water)
Peace and God Bless
Nicene
R
RyanL
Guest
That’s it? Nothing else for the “water and spirit” in God’s plan? Come on, my Catholic brother, you can do better than that! What about the following:
**Genesis 1:2 - **Creation - Spirit and Water
And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the **waters.
****Genesis 8:11 - Noah and the New Creation - Spirit and Water
** And the dove came in to him in the evening; and, lo, in her mouth was an olive leaf pluckt off: so Noah knew that the waters were abated from off the earth.
What’s the Dove a symbol of? That’s right, the Holy Spirit.
**Exodus 13:18 - Exodus into the Promised land - Spirit and Water
** But God led the people about, through the way of the wilderness of the Red sea: and the children of Israel went up harnessed out of the land of Egypt…21And Jehovah went before their face by day in a pillar of a cloud, to lead them [in] the way; and by night in a pillar of fire, to give them light; so that they could go day and night.
What’s the cloud a symbol of? That’s right, the Shekinah Glory Cloud of God, a.k.a., the Holy Spirit. And the Red Sea? I think I remember a certain people having to “pass through” it…almost like a…what’s the word when a religious people are sent through water in order to get to the Promised Land…
Luke 3:21-22
21Now when all the people were baptized, it came to pass, that Jesus also being baptized, and praying, the heaven was opened, 22 And the **Holy Ghost **descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.
That’s right…the word was BAPTISM!
Maybe this whole water-and-spirit thing is why St. Peter could say the following:
**1 Peter 3:21
**Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
21The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
Ahh…so Baptism isn’t some weird ritual that has only symbolic significance, but rather it is an actualization (read: fulfillment) of the way in which God has always done things. He told us time and time again how it would work - if we had only read the Scriptures, we would have seen it! Perhaps that’s why Jesus says the following:
John 3: 5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except any one be born of water and of Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
And when Nicodemus says, “Huh?” Christ would respond with the following:
John 3:10 Jesus answered and said to him, Thou art the teacher of Israel and knowest not these things?
Why should Nicodemus have known? Because God has been telling us the same thing, over and over, and we just never got it!
Eze 36: 25 **And I will sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your uncleannesses
**Wow…the Bible tells us that we are born again of WATER AND SPRIT! Who knew?
God Bless,
RyanL
P
Philthy
Guest
ignorance, selectivity…or denial - take your pick.
and wouldn’t be seen as the basis for deciding the “true church.”
this is more in the realm of speculation.
What? No address for this verse?! Actually since the Scriptures are a PRODUCT of the CHURCH, but the church is not a product of Scripture - its the other way around: Scripture will be true to the Church’s teachings: they are one and the same.
Sorry, but you seem to be excluding the oral traditions that Scripture itself inerrantly declares as binding(1Thess 2:15).
In addition, Paul very clearly states in (1Tim 3:15) that Christian conduct requires teaching to know “how to behave in the house of the living God” - even for someone who “knows the Scriptures”
Of course, but the questions remains…by WHOM is it determined through comparison? Luther, Calvin, Zwingli, GrahamWho has the power to BIND that determination on another?
Lastly, let me say that RyanL slapped you pretty hard :crying: with your Tourin candidate. I think your avoidance techniques - though pitiful - probably represented a better attempt at obfuscation than actually engaging in dialogue…
M
myfavoritmartin
Guest
I disagree, he asked a yes or no and I answered him with a person place and belief. Study this person and tell me whether you honestly believe his beliefs are closer to yours or mine. Keep in mind their wasn’t a defined “protestant church” at this time, but there were plenty of people who didn’t believe in what the roman see practiced. To sway to far in that time would have been sure death. bishop of turin was one of the few people given access to scripture in that day and for him to be against the see on so many issues is amazing.
J
jimmy
Guest
And read the responses. Fredericks started out with a misconception. Paul is a part of the reason why Rome was chosen, but Peter being the first of the apostles is the one who handed on his authority. The pope is the successor of Peter since Peter is first and the bishop of Rome is first. They could have handed the authority on at Antioch or Alexandria but they didn’t.The pope is the successor of Peter because he has Peters authority, not because he is in Rome.
M
myfavoritmartin
Guest
The Apology of Claudius of Turin LINK
(Text removed due to possible copyright violation. Subsequent posts containing text have been deleted.)
This translation by Thomas Head has been made available to fellow students and researchers for private or classroom use. All other rights are reserved. Duplication for any other purpose, including publication, is prohibited. This translation was last updated on June 10, 1997.
(Text removed due to possible copyright violation. Subsequent posts containing text have been deleted.)
This translation by Thomas Head has been made available to fellow students and researchers for private or classroom use. All other rights are reserved. Duplication for any other purpose, including publication, is prohibited. This translation was last updated on June 10, 1997.
M
myfavoritmartin
Guest
Why do you make yourself humble and bow down before false images? Why do you bend your body, held captive before silly statues and earthly pictures? God made you upright. While other animals are prone and face toward the earth, you have a sublime status and are erect, facing heaven and the face of God. Look upwards, turn your eyes upwards, seek God in heavenly things, so that you are able to avoid that which is below. Raise up your doubtful heart to heavenly heigts. Why do you hurl yourself into the lap of death with that lifeless image which you honor? Why do you tumble into the ruin of the devil both through it and with it? Preserve that sublime status to which you were born. Persevere in the manner in which you were made by God.
Those who belong to the false religion and to superstition say, "In order to recall our savior we honor, venerate, and adore a painted cross made in his honor. Nothing pleases them about our savior except that which also pleased the impious, that is the disgrace of his passion and his mockery of death. They believe that which impious men, both Jews and pagans who even doubt his resurrection, also believe. They have not learned to think about him in any manner other than believing and holding him in their hearts as twisted, dead, and always contorted in his passion. They neither hear nor understand what the apostle said, “We have known Christ according to the flesh, but now we know him so no longer.” (2 Corinthians 5:16)
The answer to them is that, if they wish to adore all wood made into the shape of a cross, since Christ hung from a cross, then the same thing ought to be done for the memory of many other things which Christ did in the flesh. For he only hung from the cross for six hours, but he was in the womb of the virgin for nine lunar moths and eleven more days, which is the same thing as two hundred and seventy-six solar days, that is nine months and six added days. Therefore let virgin girls be adored, since a virgin bore Christ. Let mangers be adored, since he was lain in a manger just after having been born. Let old linen be adored, since, when he was born, he was wrapped in such old linens. Let boats be adored since he frequently sailed on boats, and taught the crowds from a little boat, and slept on a boat, and commanded the winds from a boat, and it was to the right side of a boat that he ordered them to place the nets, when that great, prophetic, catch of fish was made. . . Finally let lances be adored, since one of the soldiers at the cross opened his side with a lance, and from that wound flowed blood and water, the sacraments by which the church is formed. These things are all jokes and should be laughed at rather then written down. But we are forced to propose foolish things against fools, and to hurl stony blows against stony hearts, rather than arrows of words and opinions. “Return you transgressors to the heart” (Isaiah 46:8). You have departed from truth, seek vanity, and are made vain. You crucify again the son of God and hold him up to be displayed. Thus you have made the souls of the lowly partners of the devils. Alienating them through the impious sacrilege of statues, you have caused them to be rejected by their creator and thrown into perpetual damnation.
For God commanded one thing, and they do another. God commanded them to carry the cross, not to adore it. They wish to adore it rather than to carry it in either a spiritual or a corporal sense. To honor God in this manner is to depart from him, for he said, “If any man will come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me.” (Matthew 16:24) Unless someone forsakes himself, he does not approach the one who is above him, nor is he able to comprehend that which is beyond him if he does not know how to make sacrifice.
Those who belong to the false religion and to superstition say, "In order to recall our savior we honor, venerate, and adore a painted cross made in his honor. Nothing pleases them about our savior except that which also pleased the impious, that is the disgrace of his passion and his mockery of death. They believe that which impious men, both Jews and pagans who even doubt his resurrection, also believe. They have not learned to think about him in any manner other than believing and holding him in their hearts as twisted, dead, and always contorted in his passion. They neither hear nor understand what the apostle said, “We have known Christ according to the flesh, but now we know him so no longer.” (2 Corinthians 5:16)
The answer to them is that, if they wish to adore all wood made into the shape of a cross, since Christ hung from a cross, then the same thing ought to be done for the memory of many other things which Christ did in the flesh. For he only hung from the cross for six hours, but he was in the womb of the virgin for nine lunar moths and eleven more days, which is the same thing as two hundred and seventy-six solar days, that is nine months and six added days. Therefore let virgin girls be adored, since a virgin bore Christ. Let mangers be adored, since he was lain in a manger just after having been born. Let old linen be adored, since, when he was born, he was wrapped in such old linens. Let boats be adored since he frequently sailed on boats, and taught the crowds from a little boat, and slept on a boat, and commanded the winds from a boat, and it was to the right side of a boat that he ordered them to place the nets, when that great, prophetic, catch of fish was made. . . Finally let lances be adored, since one of the soldiers at the cross opened his side with a lance, and from that wound flowed blood and water, the sacraments by which the church is formed. These things are all jokes and should be laughed at rather then written down. But we are forced to propose foolish things against fools, and to hurl stony blows against stony hearts, rather than arrows of words and opinions. “Return you transgressors to the heart” (Isaiah 46:8). You have departed from truth, seek vanity, and are made vain. You crucify again the son of God and hold him up to be displayed. Thus you have made the souls of the lowly partners of the devils. Alienating them through the impious sacrilege of statues, you have caused them to be rejected by their creator and thrown into perpetual damnation.
For God commanded one thing, and they do another. God commanded them to carry the cross, not to adore it. They wish to adore it rather than to carry it in either a spiritual or a corporal sense. To honor God in this manner is to depart from him, for he said, “If any man will come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me.” (Matthew 16:24) Unless someone forsakes himself, he does not approach the one who is above him, nor is he able to comprehend that which is beyond him if he does not know how to make sacrifice.
M
myfavoritmartin
Guest
When you say, as you surely do, that I prohibit men from going to Rome for the sake of penance, you speak falsely. I neither approve nor disapprove that action, since I know that it neither hinders anyone nor is useful for them, it neither profits anyone nor obstructs them. If you think that to go to Rome is to seek penance, then I first ask you why you have lost so many souls in such a short time, souls whom you have retained in your monastery or whom, for the sake of penance, you have received into your monastery and not sent to Rome and even made them serve you. You say that you have a group of one hundred and forty monks, all of whom have come to you for the sake of penance. They turned themselves over to your monastery and you have not permitted one of them to go to Rome. If these things are so-if, as you say, to go to Rome is to seek penance-what will you do about this opinion spoken by the Lord,“He that shall scandalize one of these little ones that believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone should be hanged around his neck and that he should be drowned in the depth of the sea.” (Matthew 18:6) There is no greater scandal that to prohibit a man from taking that path by which he is able to travel to eternal joys.
We know, according to the Evangelist, that the words of the Lord savior were not understood, when he spoke to Peter, “You are Peter and upon this rock I will build my church and I will give you the keys of heaven.” (Matthew 16:18-19) Because of these words spoken by the Lord, the race of ignorant men, having disregarded the understanding of all spiritual things, wish to go to Rome in order to acquire eternal life. He who understands the keys of the kingdom of heaven as given above does not require that the intercession of the blessed Peter be limited to one locale. If we subtly consider the proper meaning of the words of the Lord, it was not said by him, “Whatever you loose in heaven will be loosed on earth, and whatever you bind in heaven will be held bound on earth.” From this it is known that the ministry is granted to the overseers of the church only as long as they are on pilgrimage in the mortal body. When they pay the debt of death, those who succeed them in their place obtain the same judicial power, as it is written, “Instead of your fathers, sons are born to you; you will make them princes over all the earth.” (Psalms 45:16; 44:17 in the Vulgate) . . . Hear this, you who are fools among the people and you who were once silly and sought the intercession of the apostle by going to Rome . . .
[You object] against me that the apostolic lord is upset with me-you also say that you are displeased with me. You said this of Paschal, bishop of the Roman church, who has since left this present life. A man is said to be apostolic who is guardian of the apostle or who exercises the office of an apostle. Surely a man should not be called apostolic who simply sits on the apostolic throne, but who carries out the office. The Lord said about those who hold a place, but do not carry out the office, “The scribes and the Pharisees have sitten on the chair of Moses. All things therefore whatsoever they shall say to you, observe and do; but according to their works do not. For they say, and do not.” (Matthew 23:2-3)
We know, according to the Evangelist, that the words of the Lord savior were not understood, when he spoke to Peter, “You are Peter and upon this rock I will build my church and I will give you the keys of heaven.” (Matthew 16:18-19) Because of these words spoken by the Lord, the race of ignorant men, having disregarded the understanding of all spiritual things, wish to go to Rome in order to acquire eternal life. He who understands the keys of the kingdom of heaven as given above does not require that the intercession of the blessed Peter be limited to one locale. If we subtly consider the proper meaning of the words of the Lord, it was not said by him, “Whatever you loose in heaven will be loosed on earth, and whatever you bind in heaven will be held bound on earth.” From this it is known that the ministry is granted to the overseers of the church only as long as they are on pilgrimage in the mortal body. When they pay the debt of death, those who succeed them in their place obtain the same judicial power, as it is written, “Instead of your fathers, sons are born to you; you will make them princes over all the earth.” (Psalms 45:16; 44:17 in the Vulgate) . . . Hear this, you who are fools among the people and you who were once silly and sought the intercession of the apostle by going to Rome . . .
[You object] against me that the apostolic lord is upset with me-you also say that you are displeased with me. You said this of Paschal, bishop of the Roman church, who has since left this present life. A man is said to be apostolic who is guardian of the apostle or who exercises the office of an apostle. Surely a man should not be called apostolic who simply sits on the apostolic throne, but who carries out the office. The Lord said about those who hold a place, but do not carry out the office, “The scribes and the Pharisees have sitten on the chair of Moses. All things therefore whatsoever they shall say to you, observe and do; but according to their works do not. For they say, and do not.” (Matthew 23:2-3)
P
Philthy
Guest
Nowhere in Scripture did Jesus, the apostles, or any New Testament writer set forth the idea of “a New Testament”
Actually, the prepoderance of authority excersized by Paul, Peter, et al was by virtue of their inherent authority as Apostles - and they appointed others (Timothy, etc) by virtue of that same authority, to lead also. Paul specifically TELLS Timothy that his knowledge of Scripture is insufficient to behave properly in the church. Why did God inspire that to be recorded in Scripture?
Sorry, but this has been covered at length. If you think 2Tim3:16 comes anywhere near saying that Scripture is to be the guide of the faith and all Church decisions, then you are simply kidding yourself. Don’t get me wrong - Scripture is important and everything that 2Tim 3:16 says it is- but for Christians the NT Scritptures are simply a legend apart from the Church to validate them.
God brought us Christ through the virgin, Mary - be respectful; and
God brought us Scripture through the Church. Pout and fuss all you want, but this is how God chose to reveal His Word - through the Apostolic successors of the Church he founded on Peter.
P
Philthy
Guest
Good stuff, but you are leaving out the most relevant verse from your hero, Paul. It parallels John 3-5 more closely than 1Peter, although Peter also tells us that “baptism now SAVES YOU…”
John 3:5 speaks of the entrance to Heaven requiring the being born of water and the holy Spirit. Titus 3:5 "He saved us…through the bath of rebirth and renewal by the holy Spirit.
born of water …and …the holy Spirit
bath of rebirth… and …renewal by the holy Spirit.
What do you suppose the “bath of rebirth” is a reference to? There is no wiggle room…they are discussing the same thing: baptism and the regeneration it produces through the power of the holy Spirit.
R
RyanL
Guest
Again, you didn’t give me a yes or a no (to any of my questions, actually).
And here’s my problem with the answer you did give: you gave me a guy who holds beliefs not held by any mainline Protestant today. This is akin to citing the Judiazers as early Protestants - in fact, that would be better as the Seventh Day Adventists and the Jehovah’s Witnesses (both Protestants) actually hold views similar to them (ok, well, the JW’s are more like the Sadducees, but you get the idea).
Ok, let’s do that! The following are snipped from the letter YOU POSTED:
Claudius of Turin:
Footnote 1 - Far from espousing your Protestant doctrines, Claudius assures his reader of his fidelity to the Catholic Church by upholding the “unity of the faith” and “proclaims its truth”.
Footnote 2 - Another affirmation of his office as bishop as part of the "Lord’s holy Catholic Church.
Footnote 3 - “Adoration” has an explicit theological definition, meaning “an act of religion offered to God in acknowledgment of His supreme perfection and dominion, and of the creature’s dependence upon Him”. The technical term in Latin is latria, which is reserved for God alone, as defined by the Seventh General Council, in 757 A.D., and the Council of Trent (Session XXV). The purpose is to make sure that worship of objects, or even saints, does not occur, because that would indeed be idolatry which was what Claudius was condemning. It should not, however, be taken to mean that saints are not honored (Heb 13:7). It should be noted that Turin is the site of the infamous and controversial Shroud.
Footnote 4 - Claudius rightly points out that it giving latria to objects is a false religion and not the Catholic faith whose truth he proclaims as a Catholic bishop.
Footnote 5 - Claudius affirms the primacy of Rome in the Catholic Church.
Footnote 6 - Claudius upholds the Catholic belief in the intercession of saints and says that it isn’t necessary to go to Rome to receive the benefit of Peter’s prayer (1 Tim 2:1-7, Rom 8:35-39, 1 Thess 5:11).
Footnote 7 - Contrary to your statement, Claudius affirms that the office of bishop is a continual one and points out that the sanctity of the office is unaffected by any sinful behavior of the person who holds it, by quoting Matthew 23:2-3.
Primary Source
…cont’d…
R
RyanL
Guest
…cont’d…
Now…is this guy closer to a Catholic or a Protestant? He affirms that the Catholic Church is the true Church (and do you honestly expect us to believe that he didn’t know what that was?!?), he believes in Apostolic Succession and Holy Orders, he believes in the Primacy of Rome, he believes in the intercession of saints, and he believes that the Apostolic office is unaffected by the sinfulness of the holder.
Does that REALLY sound Protestant to you?
God Bless,
RyanL
Now…is this guy closer to a Catholic or a Protestant? He affirms that the Catholic Church is the true Church (and do you honestly expect us to believe that he didn’t know what that was?!?), he believes in Apostolic Succession and Holy Orders, he believes in the Primacy of Rome, he believes in the intercession of saints, and he believes that the Apostolic office is unaffected by the sinfulness of the holder.
Does that REALLY sound Protestant to you?
God Bless,
RyanL
- Status