Split! MyFavoriteMartin's "One True Church" Thread

[MrS]

myfavoritmartin:

The Church
The Church consists of a living spiritual body of which Christ is the head and all regenerated persons are members, and exists as both a world-wide fellowship of the family of God as well as in specific local congregations consisting of a community of believers in Jesus Christ who are committed to obedience to Him. Believers in a local church are called by God to gather together to devote themselves to worship, prayer, the teaching of the Word of God, observance of baptism and communion as ordinances established by Jesus Christ, and to fellowship and to minister to one another through the development and use of talents and spiritual gifts. God has laid upon the members of the local church the primary task of proclaiming the Gospel of Jesus Christ to the world, beginning in their own communities and reaching cross-culturally to the ends of the earth.

so that explains why you can degate the one Church founded by Christ through His Apostles, and replace it with unlimited versions of church and theology… clever (not)

The Ordinances
The Lord Jesus Christ has instituted two ordinances for obedient observance by the local church: baptism and the Lord’s Supper. Christian baptism is the immersion of a believer in water in the Name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Baptism does not constitute salvation, but is a public profession of faith that a person has already experienced salvation. The Scriptures teach that the elements of Communion, or the Lord’s Supper, have no mystical or supernatural power, but were given by Jesus as symbols of the sacrifice of His body and blood as an atonement for the sins of the world. These two ordinances are to be observed and administered by God’s family until the return of the Lord Jesus Christ

*there are so many holes in this one… I don’t know where to begin… *

t.

 

[myfavoritmartin]

MrS:

sounds almost catholic!!

Even I know "This act of salvation is based solely on the grace and mercy of God, and is not the result of human deeds or goodness. "
Doesn’t sound anything close to Catholic.

MrS:

how many judgments?? what happens if you die without being fully and completely holy and without blemish??

Tell me MrS, Why in your opinion did Christ die on the cross?

 

[djrakowski]

myfavoritmartin:

Even I know "This act of salvation is based solely on the grace and mercy of God, and is not the result of human deeds or goodness. "
Doesn’t sound anything close to Catholic.

Wrong. Actually, that statement is exactly what the Church teaches! Nobody earns their own salvation - it is solely a result of the grace and mercy of God!

 

[valient_Lucy]

myfavoritmartin:

I would say you fairly accurately described my home church which is one of the largest and fastest growing single non denominational churches in the world with missions spreading throughout south america, worship centers throughout the Middle east including Iraq.
Missions throughtout Russia and Africa and we are truly blessed, any given Sunday at one service our attendance exceeds 2,500 at one location for one service. We do feel the Holy Spirit touch us daily in helping to spread the good news. We have not dealt with homosexuality with in our church, rather at a recent event at the state capitol regarding s/s marraige we probably provided more protesters than any congregation in our state. We are very blessed and give all thanks to our Lord and saviour Jesus Christ, who without him none of this would be possible.

Rapid growth is not necessarily a sign of truth. The Mormons increase at a very fast rate, and they send missions all over the world. One of my friends recently converted to Mormonism.
Does that make them the True Church?
After all, they’re claims are similar to the Protestant Churches. Both of them think that Christianity fell into apostacy, and practically dissapeared, forcing God to start over.

Kudos though, for sending missionaries to the Middle East and Iraq.

 

[RyanL]

myfavoritmartin:

Even I know "This act of salvation is based solely on the grace and mercy of God, and is not the result of human deeds or goodness. "
Doesn’t sound anything close to Catholic.

Really? Since you don’t seem to know much about Catholic doctrines, please allow me to quote the Council of Trent, Session VI (yes, a CATHOLIC council):

**Canon 1.
**If anyone says that man can be justified before God by his own works, whether done by his own natural powers or through the teaching of the law, without divine grace through Jesus Christ, let him be anathema.

 **Canon 2.
**If anyone says that divine grace through Christ Jesus is given for this only, that man may be able more easily to live justly and to merit eternal life, as if by free will without grace he is able to do both, though with hardship and difficulty, let him be anathema.

 **Canon 3.
**If anyone says that without the predisposing inspiration of the Holy Ghost and without His help, man can believe, hope, love or be repentant as he ought, so that the grace of justification may be bestowed upon him, let him be anathema.

Hmm…sounds pretty Catholic to me. Grace alone. Hmmph. Ratified by a Pope, even. I guess that’s a Catholic view. Pray tell, what, exactly, do you disagree with here?

Tell me MrS, Why in your opinion did Christ die on the cross?

Again, please allow me to quote the Church herself (again, from the Council of Trent, Chapter VII):

…the meritorious cause [of our Justification] is His most beloved only begotten, our Lord Jesus Christ, who, when we were enemies, for the exceeding charity wherewith he loved us, merited for us justification by His most holy passion on the wood of the cross and made satisfaction for us to God the Father…

Again…do you disagree?

God Bless,
RyanL

 

[myfavoritmartin]

I am not starting a new debate here, I just have read the canon 2 over and over and I am really struggling to understand what they are saying,
Canon 2.
If anyone says that divine grace through Christ Jesus is given for this only, that man may be able more easily to live justly and to merit eternal life, as if by free will without grace he is able to do both, though with hardship and difficulty, let him be anathema.

could someone please put this in laymens terms.
Thanks,
Martin

 

[RyanL]

myfavoritmartin:

I am not starting a new debate here, I just have read the canon 2 over and over and I am really struggling to understand what they are saying,
Canon 2.
If anyone says that divine grace through Christ Jesus is given for this only, that man may be able more easily to live justly and to merit eternal life, as if by free will without grace he is able to do both, though with hardship and difficulty, let him be anathema.

could someone please put this in laymens terms.

Sure!

Basically, it’s refuting a semi-Pelagian view of Justification. It asserts that:
(1) Man cannot merit eternal life (Justification) on his own - we need the Grace of God to be saved.
(2) Man cannot, after Justification, live justly without the Grace of God working within us (even if it is conceded that it’s really, really hard to do).

Pelagianism stated that man was able to make the initial act of faith without the Grace of God (i.e., by his own free will and desire). This was condemned as heresy pretty early on.

Semi-Pelagianism arose after that and stated, more or less, that God’s Grace initially brings us to faith, but after that we’re on our own and we can be righteous by our own free will and effort (i.e., we don’t need God’s Grace to perservere unto salvation). Again, the Church declared this heresy and stated that we are entirely reliant on the Grace of God to be righteous (i.e., to grow in sanctification), and we cannot by our own efforts apart from the Grace of God actualize our own holiness.

Does that help? Here’s a link to Pelagianism and a link to Semi-Pelagianism.

If you need more resources, just let me know. The language that gets used in these canons is typically very technical (and the phrasing is often archaic), so don’t feel bad if you don’t get it the first few times. There’s a reason why a lot of folks think the Church teaches something different than it does - the language used is tough (hey, it sounded good in the 1500’s when it was written). That’s why we have the Catechism (a layman’s terms explanation).

God Bless,
RyanL

 

[Subrosa]

myfavoritmartin:

I am not starting a new debate here, I just have read the canon 2 over and over and I am really struggling to understand what they are saying,
Canon 2.
If anyone says that divine grace through Christ Jesus is given for this only, that man may be able more easily to live justly and to merit eternal life, as if by free will without grace he is able to do both, though with hardship and difficulty, let him be anathema.

could someone please put this in laymens terms.
Thanks,
Martin

Hi Martin -

Admittedly a difficult passage. I’ll take a shot for you.

Canon 2.
If anyone says that divine grace through Christ Jesus is given for this only, that man may be able more easily to live justly and to merit eternal life, as if by free will without grace he is able to do both, though with hardship and difficulty, let him be anathema.

Lets break it down…I’m going to start in the middle.

“Able to do both” = live justly and merit eternal grace.
“as if by free will without grace”" = The person can do both without grace.
“Divine grace through Jesus Christ is given for this only” PLUS “through with hardship and difficulty” = That a man through his own sufferings earns grace because of Christ’s sacrifice.
“Let him be anathema” = excommunicated.

The short sentence is a person’s sufferings do not gain that person grace, even if you were to say that Jesus died for that reason. “As if by free will” means that the person cannot CHOOSE to suffer to gain grace.

Grace is given by God alone at His whim.

Blessings,
Subrosa

 

[Contarini]

myfavoritmartin:

I am not starting a new debate here, I just have read the canon 2 over and over and I am really struggling to understand what they are saying,
Canon 2.
If anyone says that divine grace through Christ Jesus is given for this only, that man may be able more easily to live justly and to merit eternal life, as if by free will without grace he is able to do both, though with hardship and difficulty, let him be anathema.

could someone please put this in laymens terms.
Thanks,
Martin

It’s saying that we can’t be saved without grace. Grace isn’t just something that makes salvation easier. We cannot save ourselves. In other words, it’s saying exactly what you think Catholics do not say.

Edwin

 

[Contarini]

RyanL:

I asked for a Protestant, and you gave me someone who believes in Apostolic Succession and Holy Orders. I am unaware of any Protestant denomination greater than about 100 members who would hold this as a doctrine.

You don’t consider Anglicans Protestants?

Edwin

 

[myfavoritmartin]

Nicene:

Interesting comment. Can you answer these comparing scripture to scripture please.

1. After Moses died was his body assumed into heaven? If so can you point to where scripture (OT) checks itself on this, if not, again show where scripture checks itself on this.
2. When the apostles quote Jesus are the sayings to be found in the gospels?
3. When Jesus is approached about the apostles plucking grain on the sabbath, is his statement accurate when he refers to the OT?

4.Do the gospels ever make any mistakes regarding prophesy in the OT?

1. Are there any prophesies in the NT not found in the OT or do they all check each other?
2. Is the bible a tradition, particularly the NT?

Peace and God Bless
Nicene

Nicene if you attach the scriptural address to these I will do my best to answer each one, sorry it took so long to get back to this.
#1 may be tough, matching ot scripture to ot scripture… I know a flaw in my presentation.

 

[RyanL]

Contarini:

You don’t consider Anglicans Protestants?

Perhaps yes, perhaps no. It really depends on which Anglicans you’re talking about. Some definitely are Protestant, and some…well…we’ll see:

"We have no doctrinal differences with Rome which would keep us from being in full communion with each other " said the Archbishop in a recent interview. " The climate is brewing for the Traditional Anglican Communion to be the 27th ecclesial group accepted into communion with Rome and the first church touched by the Reformation to do so. "

Others…well…
From anglicanhistory.org:

We must then–in sorrow let it be said–assent to the judgment of history that in Denmark and Norway the Apostolic Succession was broken, even if the Episcopal office was retained.

…so yeah, they would be Protestant, as they believe in the validity of their episcopacy without valid apostolic succession.

Would you agree?

God Bless,
RyanL

Oh, and I also wouldn’t consider the Orthodox to be Protestant.

 

[Philthy]

myfavoritmartin:

I am not starting a new debate here, I just have read the canon 2 over and over and I am really struggling to understand what they are saying,
Canon 2.
If anyone says that divine grace through Christ Jesus is given for this only, that man may be able more easily to live justly and to merit eternal life, as if by free will without grace he is able to do both, though with hardship and difficulty, let him be anathema.

could someone please put this in laymens terms.
Thanks,
Martin

Basically it is refuting the notion that the Grace of Christ isn’t necessary for salvation. It is refuting:

• the notion that the Grace of Christ simply makes it easier to enter eternal life (when, in fact, Grace is a **necessary **component.
• the notion that some one would be able, by the exercise of free will, to live justly and merit eternal life apart from the Grace of Christ.

 

[super64]

Hi Martin,

I don’t know if you have read ‘The Catechism of the Catholic Church’. If not here’s a link to it. I hope that it can answer some of your questions and correct any misinterpretations, misgivings and/or hurt feelings.

vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_INDEX.HTM

1Th 2:5 For we never came with words of flattery, as you know, nor with a pretext for greed–God is witness.
1Th 2:6 Nor did we seek glory from people, whether from you or from others, though we could have made demands as apostles of Christ.
1Th 2:7 But we were gentle among you, like a nursing mother taking care of her own children.
1Th 2:8 So, being affectionately desirous of you, we were ready to share with you not only the gospel of God but also our own selves, because you had become very dear to us.
1Th 2:9 For you remember, brothers, our labor and toil: we worked night and day, that we might not be a burden to any of you, while we proclaimed to you the gospel of God.
1Th 2:10 You are witnesses, and God also, how holy and righteous and blameless was our conduct toward you believers.
1Th 2:11 For you know how, like a father with his children,
1Th 2:12 we exhorted each one of you and encouraged you and charged you to walk in a manner worthy of God, who calls you into his own kingdom and glory.
1Th 2:13 And we also thank God constantly for this, that when you received the word of God, which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men but as what it really is, the word of God, which is at work in you believers.

Act 18:24 Now a Jew named Apollos, a native of Alexandria, came to Ephesus. He was an eloquent man, competent in the Scriptures.
Act 18:25 He had been instructed in the way of the Lord. And being fervent in spirit, he spoke and taught accurately the things concerning Jesus, though he knew only the baptism of John.
Act 18:26 He began to speak boldly in the synagogue, but when Priscilla and Aquila heard him, they took him and explained to him the way of God more accurately.
Act 18:27 And when he wished to cross to Achaia, the brothers encouraged him and wrote to the disciples to welcome him. When he arrived, he greatly helped those who through grace had believed,
Act 18:28 for he powerfully refuted the Jews in public, showing by the Scriptures that the Christ was Jesus.

Peace and Grace of the Lord Jesus Christ be with you,

Scott