SPLIT: Once Saved Always Saved? (Revisited)

  • Thread starter Thread starter Sig
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Hi, Fhansen,

Excellent! 👍

God bless
fhansen said:
1 Cor 9 squares perfectly with Phil 3 where Paul identifies the prize with the resurrection from the dead which He’s striving for but not yet obtained:

But whatever were gains to me I now consider loss for the sake of Christ. 8 What is more, I consider everything a loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have lost all things. I consider them garbage, that I may gain Christ 9 and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ—the righteousness that comes from God on the basis of faith. 10 I want to know Christ—yes, to know the power of his resurrection and participation in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, 11 and so, somehow, attaining to the resurrection from the dead.
12 Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already arrived at my goal, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. 13 Brothers and sisters, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, 14 I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus. Phil 3:7-14

1Cor 10: 12-13:
12So, if you think you are standing firm, be careful that you don’t fall! 13 No temptation has overtaken you except what is common to mankind. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can endure it. 14 Therefore, my dear friends, flee from idolatry.

Yes, these verses highlight Catholic teachings on the matter. Verses 6-10 warn believers of the consequence-death-of particular forms of idolatry. This echoes 1 Cor 6:9-10:

Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

Then verse 11 in 1 Cor 9 warns believers not to follow in that same way. And then it follows naturally that, if not for the freedom of a believer to reject God’s grace (His “way out” in this case), verse 12 would contradict verse 13 and verse 14 would be superfluous. This whole passage also echoes Rev 2:2-7, likewise addressed to true believers:

I know that you cannot tolerate wicked people, that you have tested those who claim to be apostles but are not, and have found them false. 3 You have persevered and have endured hardships for my name, and have not grown weary.
4 Yet I hold this against you: You have forsaken the love you had at first. 5 Consider how far you have fallen! Repent and do the things you did at first. If you do not repent, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place. 6 But you have this in your favor: You hate the practices of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.
7 Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the one who is victorious, I will give the right to eat from the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God.
Click to expand...
 
What constitutes being saved? Once you can determine what it means to be truly saved, then you can determine if there is something a person can do that would put them from the state of “SAVED” to “DOOMED”. Once “SAVED” what would a person have to do to change them to “DOOMED”?

And has or would a saved person ever commit something so terrible to choose Eternal Torture over the Knowledge that they will be in eternal Bliss?

And why would some one who has been saved even commit an act condemning them to hell if that act is against their morals?

Once Saved always Saved? Who does this refer to? People baptized and therefore have a “free pass” to heaven, or at least know they are not doomed to hell?

Are they people that God has decided “I refuse to let this person go to hell no matter what because I know despite their whole life where their heart truly lies?”

Once Saved Always Saved are they people who have inherited a special privilege?

Don’t you choose to go to HEAVEN or HELL so that OSAS is a choice you make and not a privilege granted to you?
 
Hi, Odell,

I would say, quite severely! :eek:

Notice how private interepretation (a condemned error in itself per 2Peter 1:20) and it just leads to other errors - like OSAS!

Here is an interesting link from a Protestant who bashes OSAS! pfrs.org/osas/index.html He gets hung up on other things … but, I think it is interesting how he addresses Calvin’s OSAS issues.

God bless
Odell said:
How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace?

He is clearly talking to those who are saved
Click to expand...
 
tqualey said:
Hi, Hunter123,

That will simply never work … and for several reasons.

Yes, I know that Calvin came up with OSAS - but, that really isn’t the issue (don’t want to get bogged down with ‘pride of authorship’… or copyright issues…:D)

The first reason is that with private interpretation, one can (falsely) claim that ‘proof texts’ exist everywhere for OSAS - and, they do! :eek: The text eixst when you wrench them out of context and dangle their fragments out to say, “Here it is!” So, a thoughtful response would include the entire context for starters. In each case so far given, simply going back to the chapter where the ‘proof’ is offered allows one to see that both faith and works are necessary - and both of these wrapped within the Grace of God.

The second reason why this won’t work is historical responses. Just go back and see how similar items have been evaded in the past.

In an earlier post I had referenced the five foolish virgins, let’s continue to look at Matthew 25 and see what else DIDN’T happen. When the ‘wicked and lazy’ servant was found out (Matt 25:14-30) he did not suddenly dance around and sing OSAS because he started out in the Master’s House and was given a Talent (Kingdom of God). This non-Working servant was thrown out because he failed to produce what was expected of him. This is the message from Christ Himself. The OSAS crowd can not handle that view simply because its obvious meaning contradicts the heresy. The argument is that this ‘wicked servant’ was always reprobate - and we know this because of the judgment he received. But, notice the Master treated them all alike (except for the quantity of Talents) - and gave them all the same assignment. I do not think this particular servant knew he was reprobate. To argue that he was is simply begging the question - trying to force the answer.

There is no honest scriptural backing for OSAS - and you are quite right about that 👍

God bless
Click to expand...
Point taken. However the reason I presented that argument and the link was to appeal to Sigs sensibility. In other words if I was presented a doctrine like OSAS and was told that this new doctrine was given to a man 1500 years after Christ, it would set off some alarm bells.I would say to myself, how did all of these other Christians get it wrong?

Lets just wait and see how Sig responds instead of debunking one anothers attempts. After all we are both opposed to OSAS and we really don’t know which argument will convince Sig of OSAS weak foundation.👍
 
People who know the truth of the Catholic faith, have been baptized and perform all the sacraments will not be saved unless they choose Heaven over Hell. It all means nothing unless you choose God over Hell.
 
Hi, Ian Ward,

I think this will go a long way to answering your first question:

John 5: 24 Amen, amen, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes in the one who sent me has eternal life and will not come to condemnation, but has passed from death to life. 25Amen, amen, I say to you, the hour is coming and is now here when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.p 26For just as the Father has life in himself, so also he gave to his Son the possession of life in himself. 27And he gave him power to exercise judgment, because he is the Son of Man. 28 Do not be amazed at this, because the hour is coming in which all who are in the tombs will hear his voices 29and will come out, those who have done good deeds to the resurrection of life, but those who have done wicked deeds to the resurrection of condemnation.

St. Paul condemns those who, after apparently knowing Christ, return to their sinful ways. I think Hebrews 10 answers your second question. Here is a link that will provide additional information and go on to answer your third question: saintaquinas.com/mortal_sin.html

As long as we have Free Will - something denied by the OSAS crowd - then it is possible to refuse the Grace of God, willfully sin, refuse to repent and die in that state and go to Hell as a just judgment. There was a question if Peter had died immediately after he denied Christ 3x - would he go to Hell. We do not know the condition of Peter’s mind or his intention when this took place as recorded in Matthew 26:74 and Mark 14:71 - so the question can not be definitively answered because of this unknown.

But let’s see what we do have:
In order for a sin to be mortal, it must meet three conditions:

Mortal sin is a sin of grave matter
Mortal sin is committed with full knowledge of the sinner
Mortal sin is committed with deliberate consent of the sinner

Denying Christ is grave matter - and doing so with an oath may have involved blasphmey.
The assumption is that no one forced Peter to deny Christ so Peter knew what he was doing
  • AND IF THIS ACTION WAS DELIBERATE - AND HE HAD DIED … he would have gone to Hell. Admittedly, it was a highly speculative question - but, the answer as it applies to Peter, applies to all of us: if we die in the state of mortal sin, we go to Hell. And, this is straight from Catholic teaching:
1033 We cannot be united with God unless we freely choose to love him. But we cannot love God if we sin gravely against him, against our neighbor or against ourselves: "He who does not love remains in death. Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him."612 Our Lord warns us that we shall be separated from him if we fail to meet the serious needs of the poor and the little ones who are his brethren.613 To die in mortal sin without repenting and accepting God’s merciful love means remaining separated from him for ever by our own free choice. This state of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called “hell.” scborromeo.org/ccc/p123a12.htm#1023

God bless
Ian_Ward said:
What constitutes being saved? Once you can determine what it means to be truly saved, then you can determine if there is something a person can do that would put them from the state of “SAVED” to “DOOMED”. Once “SAVED” what would a person have to do to change them to “DOOMED”?

And has or would a saved person ever commit something so terrible?
Click to expand...
 
Hi, Hunter123,

OK. I just won’t hold my breath… 😃

God bless
hunter123 said:
Point taken. However the reason I presented that argument and the link was to appeal to Sigs sensibility. In other words if I was presented a doctrine like OSAS and was told that this new doctrine was given to a man 1500 years after Christ, it would set off some alarm bells.I would say to myself, how did all of these other Christians get it wrong?

Lets just wait and see how Sig responds instead of debunking one anothers attempts. After all we are both opposed to OSAS and we really don’t know which argument will convince Sig of OSAS weak foundation.👍
Click to expand...
 
fhansen said:
1 Cor 9 squares perfectly with Phil 3 where Paul identifies the prize with the resurrection from the dead which He’s striving for but not yet obtained:

But whatever were gains to me I now consider loss for the sake of Christ. 8 What is more, I consider everything a loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have lost all things. I consider them garbage, that I may gain Christ 9 and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ—the righteousness that comes from God on the basis of faith. 10 I want to know Christ—yes, to know the power of his resurrection and participation in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, 11 and so, somehow, attaining to the resurrection from the dead.
12 Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already arrived at my goal, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. 13 Brothers and sisters, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, 14 I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus. Phil 3:7-14

1Cor 10: 12-13:
12So, if you think you are standing firm, be careful that you don’t fall! 13 No temptation has overtaken you except what is common to mankind. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can endure it. 14 Therefore, my dear friends, flee from idolatry.

Yes, these verses highlight Catholic teachings on the matter. Verses 6-10 warn believers of the consequence-death-of particular forms of idolatry. This echoes 1 Cor 6:9-10:

Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

Then verse 11 in 1 Cor 9 warns believers not to follow in that same way. And then it follows naturally that, if not for the freedom of a believer to reject God’s grace (His “way out” in this case), verse 12 would contradict verse 13 and verse 14 would be superfluous. This whole passage also echoes Rev 2:2-7, likewise addressed to true believers:

I know that you cannot tolerate wicked people, that you have tested those who claim to be apostles but are not, and have found them false. 3 You have persevered and have endured hardships for my name, and have not grown weary.
4 Yet I hold this against you: You have forsaken the love you had at first. 5 Consider how far you have fallen! Repent and do the things you did at first. If you do not repent, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place. 6 But you have this in your favor: You hate the practices of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.
7 Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the one who is victorious, I will give the right to eat from the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God.
Click to expand...
I’ve asked for proof that “disqualified = loss of salvation,” and “fallen = loss of salvation.” I don’t see that you’ve proven that, but you’ve just made more assertions.

That doesn’t work for me. You’re not going to convince me by more assertions.

Salvation can’t be lost. Jesus gives eternal life to those who will never perish, and it is God who justifies, and those God justified He also glorified (Jn 10:29; Rom 8:30, 33).

The strength of those statements are not overcome by any other statements in Scripture.
 
"hunter123:
PFRS Eternal Security (OSAS)

Honestly read this article about OSAS. It clearly refutes the rather late belief of OSAS.
Click to expand...
(Edited)
hunter123 said:
And tell me Sig, If the first Christians believed once saved always saved, why did Paul need to work out his salvation in fear and trembling?
Click to expand...
Notice first that it is HIS salvation he’s working out. He possesses it now, as I’ve been saying! What the verb means is to continually work to bring something to fulfillment, or completion. That’s not salvation by works (Rom 3:21-24; Eph 2:8ff), but the believer’s responsibility in sanctification, and the believer is to do that with a healthy fear and respect for God, who is working in the believer to will and to work (v13).

(Edited)
 
Sig said:
I’ve asked for proof that “disqualified = loss of salvation,” and “fallen = loss of salvation.” I don’t see that you’ve proven that, but you’ve just made more assertions.

That doesn’t work for me. You’re not going to convince me by more assertions.

Salvation can’t be lost. Jesus gives eternal life to those who will never perish, and it is God who justifies, and those God justified He also glorified (Jn 10:29; Rom 8:30, 33).

The strength of those statements are not overcome by any other statements in Scripture.
Click to expand...
I mainly just quoted scripture. There are many other verses as well that contest your assertions. Obviously you’ve gone wrong in trusting scripture alone to be authoritative in understanding the Christian faith.
 
fhansen said:
I mainly just quoted scripture. There are many other verses as well that contest your assertions. Obviously you’ve gone wrong in trusting scripture alone to be authoritative in understanding the Christian faith.
Click to expand...
You’ve done nothing to convince me that salvation can be lost. Zero, zip, nada…🙂
 
hunter123 said:
Point taken. However the reason I presented that argument and the link was to appeal to Sigs sensibility. In other words if I was presented a doctrine like OSAS and was told that this new doctrine was given to a man 1500 years after Christ, it would set off some alarm bells.I would say to myself, how did all of these other Christians get it wrong?

Lets just wait and see how Sig responds instead of debunking one anothers attempts. After all we are both opposed to OSAS and we really don’t know which argument will convince Sig of OSAS weak foundation.👍
Click to expand...
“OSAS” is taught in Scripture, well before the reformation.
 
Sig if you believe in Jesus Christ you will be saved.
But even the devils believe in God and Confess Jesus is the Son of Man , but they are doomed to hell. Likewise they are many who are baptized and beleive Jesus is the Son of God but still walk to hell.

Even if you are saved and you go to hell that is your choice. People choose their own destiny regardless of the Merciful tireless and sacrificial effort of God. Is it not enough that God created us in the first place? but He also had to suffer a horrible death just so we all wouldn’t be lost? So who is going to say in their arrogance I believe in God and Jesus now i’m going to spend the rest of my life doing what I want, you will be saved but you won’t go to heaven first because God’s going to ask you why you wasted your life when he sent his Son to die for you so that you may Love your Neighbor as yourself, but if you are saved are like the wicked servant who wastes his talent or like the debtor pardended by his master, but beats one in debt to him, if you know the truth while know the rest of the world is in danger of hell (because the Harvest is Ripe and the Workers few), then sure you may be saved, but its going to be a long time before you get to heaven, because no one deserves to enter heaven if they think they have a free ticket to heaven.

OSAS. I don’t know what the Church’s teaching or anyone else teaching on this is, but if a Man like Moses or Peter or the Apostles are barely getting into heaven, then the rest of who rely on a free ticket to heaven are in for a rude awakening.
 
**“If anyone says that the one justified either can without the special help of God persevere in the justice received, or that with that help he cannot, let him be anathema (especially dedicated to evil).” **
twenty-second Canon of the Decree Concerning Justification of the Council of Trent (Sixth Session, 13 January 1547

Sig what exactly are you arguing or trying to be convinced or persuaded of? Do you want someone to show you that you are wrong? Or is this something you have your mind set on?
 
Sig said:
Correct, the believer has metabeino, moved from the state of spiritual death to spiritual life, and thus there is no judgment.
Then Paul statement that all men will be judged by his works has no effect. Also keep in mind that this only comes in effect if and only if the faith is still there.
I can think of no statement in scripture indicating that men move back and forth between the states of physical death, and physical life, but if you say there are such statements, please cite them.
I can think of no scientific journal showing man can move back and forth between physical death and physical life neither. That happened once, it was written in Scripture also, and his name was Jesus.

Please cite any verse in which it is stated salvation can be lost.
I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.~John 15:1-2. The Lord spoke of branches already within Him being plucked away for not bearing fruits.

You haven’t answered my questions.
The question you just asked?:confused::confused::confused:

Either go back and answer my questions, and provide proof that “disqualified = loss of salvation,” and that “falling = loss of salvation,” or tell me that you cannot answer those questions. This conversation is stopped until you either answer those questions, or until you tell me you cannot answer them.

John 15:1-2, Hebrews 6:4, Luke 8 (indicating there are people who accept the seed, but then fallen away), Matthew 25 (both the people have faith, yet they are judged by the Lord according to their works.)

Also an interesting question for you. Assume that a person can never lose his salvation (granted that he was saved instantaneously) then what is the point of Paul preaching intensely about Christian morals? What is the point of Paul reminding them they have crucified themselves to Christ? In accordance to these doctrines, then there is no real point of self discipline, nor will sins really do anything to you except maybe presenting a few obstacles in life…or maybe not.
Click to expand...
 
Sig said:
Two things.

First, God has determined not only the “ends,” but the means." The means of salvation is that faith comes by hearing the word about Christ (Rom 10:17).

Second, in the Great Commission, Jesus commanded evangelism, and that’s reason enough to do it.

God bless.
Click to expand...
First, since God is all powerful (assuming God exists at all), we would say God could supernaturally make those believers believe? If we could assume if at once no one in the world want to evangelize anymore, and the internet for some reason dead (probably too many people are on facebook), then what would happen? Since God’s will is perfect, and since He has predestined these certain people to be saved, then no matter what God will shove down the word about Christ down these people throat, right? Either through a friendly next door neighbor or through somekind of supernatural apparition. There is no way these people will reject Him. Then of course there are the unfortunate souls who will never be able to accept God no matter how earnest they are in seeking Him. They will forever remains in the cloud of ignorance til the day the rot in the earth and their soul rots in the fiery fire of hell. If you still believe predestination allows for freewill, then please demonstrate how?

Second, because of the Great Commission. Well, why did Jesus commission His disciples to risk their lives to spread the Gospel? Surely He understood that His Father predestined only a certain to accept His Gospel, so spreading the Gospel to everyone is pointless and to some extent dangerous. But He commissioned it anyway. Or maybe there’s an another reason behind His action. Maybe because He believes that ALL could hear and have equal chance to accept or reject the Gospel?
 
Hi, Fhansen,

This line of argumentation obviously isn’t working because there will never be enough proof and whatever is presented will never be accepted. This is about as close to playing ‘Sisyphus’ as it gets … and it will remain such as long as you continue to his play. 😉

OSAS is bogus. It has only the support of those who wish to interpret Scripture as they wish - so, it can mean anything they wish it to mean. Christ demanded both Faith and Obedience from His followers - and for those who thought they could come up with ‘Faith Alone’ - well… there is Matthew 25 to put that delusion to rest.

Since no one knows who is in Hell - except the Devil - it was totally unsupportable when Calvin invented it. As I recall, the ony one he was sure was numbered amongst ‘The Elect’ was himself. Everyone else was a bit doubtful.

God bless
fhansen said:
I mainly just quoted scripture. There are many other verses as well that contest your assertions. Obviously you’ve gone wrong in trusting scripture alone to be authoritative in understanding the Christian faith.
Click to expand...
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top