SPLIT: Once Saved Always Saved? (Revisited)

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That’ not what you said earlier.

Earlier you said, "If man has no free will, then he can’t be held responsible for sin."

That’s what you said earlier, as indicated by the quotes around the words. That’s what you said.

And that’s pretty much what Pelagian taught: "God holds man responsible only for those things that man is able to do."

Pelagian was declared a heretic.:sad_yes:

What you and Pelagian say, however, is against Scripture.

Scripture declares both that men were “dead through trespasses and sins” in which we once walked (Eph 2:1), and thus unable to do any spiritual good (cf Rom 8:6-8), and also that we are all guilty before God. If you think about it, if man’s responsibility were limited only to what he was able to do, then the worst sinner, bondaged to sin, could be less guilty before God than the most ardent and fervent Christians who endeavor daily to obey God.

In fact, Satan, would have no guilt at all. Think, think, think. 🤷
Gee, got me again, Sig. What I said was:

"If man has no free will, then he can’t be held responsible for sin."

which is perfectly consistent with:

Yes, in Catholicism, God holds man responsible for what man can do with God’s aid. If he won’t accept the life preserver, he drowns. 🤷

Do you really think the CC teaches that man cannot be held responsible for sin-that he has no free will whatsoever? But moral responsibility is not equivalent to Pelagianism.

What do you prefer, antinomianism? Maybe we should throw all civil law out the door, too. This is the problem, you think men are so depraved, so incapable of obedience, that they haven’t the slightest degree of willpower to contribute to doing what’s right. They’re like an unconscious drowning man. In Catholicism, God may have to wake man up but He doesn’t force the life-preserver on Him-He draws responsibility out of the man, expecting him to contribute what he can at every turn, to grab hold of the life-preserver.

See, you’re not quite as bad as you think, Sig, not the scum-bag you thought you were. God just wants to make a man out of you-a god-man, actually. He knows your potential and has higher expectations for you than you could ever have for yourself, and He *will *accomplish them. Well, if you cooperate, that is.
 
If you are free then why do you need grace (Jn 15:5)?
So we can choose to do the right thing.

Mary, who was full of grace, was always free to sin. She simply chose not to.
Similarly, we who are also full of grace (but we leak!) are always free to sin. Sometimes we choose not to. 🤷
 
Originally Posted by **PRmerger **
You cannot make a claim here, Sig, and then not back it up.
It makes it appear as if you, well, just made it up.
“Appear” being the operative word.

I do not make things up. Do a google search on Pelagianism. It’s not that hard. Pelagian taught that God holds many responsible only for those things that man is able to do.
If you cannot provide a source, it’s better to just admit that you can’t. And admit that you haven’t actually read Pelagius.
And that’s pretty much what Pelagian taught: "God holds man responsible only for those things that man is able to do."

Pelagian was declared a heretic.:sad_yes:

What you and Pelagian say, however, is against Scripture.
Heh. 😃

It appears that, as I suspected, since you have gotten the man’s name wrong (not just once, BTW), that you, in fact, have never actually read this man’s writings. His name happens to be Pelagius. Not Pelagian.

(Edited)
 
Hi, Jmoneyideas,

This was a pretty good response from your ex-pastor … but, he has a couple of problems - as you probably expected… 😃 I thought this was an important post, so, I copied and pasted it and brought it over the ‘Split’ so it could be looked at in more depth.

First, let me tell you that PR did an excellent job of addressing the issues. And, in reality, you won’t go wrong listening to her… 🙂 But, everyone has their own take - or, view of reality - so, here is mine. I have highlighted a couple of items for your consideration.

I was a little wordier than usual… 😃 and will have to break this into sections. This is Part 1 of 2…

I posted this in a on going debate with my ex pastor…Here is what he said to me in reference to me disagreeing with Predestination…

Quote:
You are right about Romans 3:23 but the text does not stand alone brother. The Apostle Paul is establishing that there is no distinction between Jew and Gentile and that none are justified or righteous (Read Romans chapters 1,2,3:20). No text in the Word of God stands on its own. You have to read the context always. The same goes for Hebrews 10:26-29. However, I will consider this portion of text and tell you that the Bible is clear in its teaching that those whom are regenerated (born again) have died to the law of sin and death and are alive with Christ to perform the works that he has prepared beforehand. Mortal sin is a definition that Roman Catholic Cathesism invented to explain the necessity of continual Sacraments since the infusion of grace (and salvation) at baptism(as a baby) would be depleted and removed after having committed a mortal sin. Am I right in my definition? If I’m mistaken, please correct me. As far as disproving Calvanism, that is not what I’m interested in. As for the passage of 1 Timothy 2:3-4 you have to read the context.** If you read John 3:16 by itself it is understood that Christ died for everyone however, God knows whom would receive or reject the Son! **To see this you have to read from the beginning of John. Finally, why do we need a Redemeer if God already predestined his elect? Simply because it magnifies and demonstrates God’s sovereignty over His Creation and not the magnification of Man choosing and “assisting” God for his own salvation. The plan of redemption was before the creation of man because God foreknew that man would need to be redeemed. If you disagree with this then you are stating that God is not sovereign and that He planned redemption after man disobeyed and fell from grace. Read Romans 9 before you answer brother. God bless!

No text in the Word of God stands on its own.
I have not read such a statement often from a Protestant. My usual experience has been with waiving around a so-called ‘proof text’ that they claim totally supports their point of view. The ex-pastor is quite right - and, has really taken this as far as he can honestly go. And there lies the basic problem with Protestantism - it can not take you the whole distance. Understanding the Word of God is quite involved are requires the Grace of God - and this was only promised by Christ to the Church He founded on Peter. The Catholic Church is the one that gave the world the Canon of Scripture. It is also the one with the Magisterium which teaches what the Scriptures mean. These are the reasons why there are not 40,000+ denominations of ‘catholic churches’ like there are of Protestant denominations. Truly, by their fruits you will know them operates on several planes.

Mortal sin is a definition that Roman Catholic Cathesism invented to explain the necessity of continual Sacraments since the infusion of grace (and salvation) at baptism(as a baby) would be depleted and removed after having committed a mortal sin.
The mental picture I drew from this was like a car full of gas (Grace) and as it drove down life’s highway… it depleted it’s gas (Grace) supply by sin. Mortal sin kills the life of Grace in the soul - the car would be a total loss…not just a good car that ran out of gas. I think a much better explanation is contained at this link from the Catechism of the Catholic Church which gives many footnotes indicating that mortal sin is NOT AN INVENTION of the Catholic Church: scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s1c1a8.htm. Additionally, go to John 20 and real the lead up to Christ breathing on the Apostles and giving them the power of God to forgive sin (or, not forgive as the case may be!)

Continued …

God bless
 
Hi, Jmoneyideas,

This is Part 2 of 2…

** If you read John 3:16 by itself it is understood that Christ died for everyone however, God knows whom would receive or reject the Son! **
There is no doubt that God knows everything: past-present-future … and the permant address for all eternity is one of the items that is also known. The issue with the way your ex-pastor (following John Calvin over the cliff) interprets this - is that we know what God knows, and this simply is not true. You see people who cliam to be numbered amongst ‘The Elect’ and view others by their own standards (a Calvin failing if ever there was one!) Ultimately, living the OSAS life-style does not honor God and violates Christ’s command for us to be faithful to the end. God to Matthew 25 and look at the 5 foolish virgins as part of the OSAS crowd, or the lazy and worthless servant as a OSAS member, or those who are about to be sent into the fires of Hell and seem surprised by this outcome because they failed to act (works! :eek:). The Gospel is full of items that tell us in various ways not be self-assured for you will fall.

and not the magnification of Man choosing and “assisting” God for his own salvation.
God was very interested in us becoming involved with our neighbors. This is not ‘magnifying man’ but rather God using each of us to effect His Divine Will in His Plan for Salvation through Christ. “We may be the only Christ some people ever see” - and this is a weighty responsibility. While the argument can be made, “Why didn’t God do ‘x’ or ‘y’?” the real issue is not only that He didn’t, but He gave us the way He wanted things done. That way, is through the Church He founded on Peter - and whose current successor is Benedict XVI.

I hope this helps.

God bless
 
Hi, Pablope,

An excellent post! 👍

The idea of a despotic god is not the picture of Christ as the Good Shepherd - not the picture of Christ knocking on the door to be let into the human heart.

God bless
BEST OF DTB*God’s Girl: Calvinism vs Catholicism by Ross Earl Hoffman

deepertruthblog.com/

CALVINISM IS UNREASONABLE
Calvin located the reason of predestination solely in the absolute will of God. But by making God alone responsible for everything, Calvin abolished the free cooperation of the will in obtaining eternal happiness. Therefore he was logically forced to admit an irresistible efficacious grace, to deny the freedom of the will when influenced by grace, and to completely reject supernatural merits (as a secondary reason for eternal happiness).

Not only is God completely responsible for the salvation of the elect, but He must also be responsible for the damnation of the reprobate, even to the point of directly willing their sins. Since God wills everything good for the elect, as well as everything bad for the reprobate, Calvin maintained that Christ died only for the elect (this is challenged by Geisler’s recent book Chosen But Free, see link below):

“As Scripture, then, clearly shows, we say that God once established by his eternal and unchangeable plan those whom he long before determined once for all to receive into salvation, and those whom, on the other hand, he would devote to destruction.

“We assert that, with respect to the elect, this plan was founded upon his freely given mercy, without regard to human worth; but by his just and irreprehensible but incomprehensible judgment he has barred the door of life to those whom he has given over to damnation.” (John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion Book III:21:7)

Salvation and damnation depend wholly on the will of God — man is completely predetermined to one or the other by irresistible grace or the lack thereof, without any cooperation or resistance of his will. Since grace is irresistible, the will of the predestined is not free to cooperate with grace to perform meritorious good works, and so salvation is purely arbitrary. Even more disturbing, since concupiscence is likewise irresistible without God’s grace, the will of the reprobate is not really free to sin and perform culpably evil works, and so damnation is not caused by demerits.

The Calvinist position is consistent with itself, but is not consistent with human experience or the Scriptures. It cannot be reconciled with the cooperation and resistance of free will, sin and virtue, the possible loss of grace, punishment and reward, and the universality of redemption and grace. Calvin’s God is arbitrary and despotic.

The Catholic position is consistent with itself, with human experience, and with the Scriptures. God’s foreknowledge and foreordination of the elect to heavenly glory includes His universal desire and sufficient grace to save all men, our free cooperation with His grace, good works which truly merit heavenly reward, and the real possibility — during this life of testing and pilgrimage — of rejecting grace and salvation and thus deserving the punishments of hell.

IMPORTANT DISTINCTIONS
  1. Predestination is not predetermination :
“Predestination is nothing else than the foreknowledge and foreordaining of those gracious gifts which make certain the salvation of all who are saved.” (St. Augustine, Persever 14:35)

Predestination is God’s decree of the happiness of the elect. God’s infallible foreknowledge (and thus predestination also) includes free will. God’s foreknowledge cannot force upon man unavoidable coercion, for the simple reason that it is at bottom nothing else than the eternal vision of the future historical actuality. God foresees the free activity of a man precisely as that individual is willing to shape it, predestination is not predetermination of the human will.
  1. Free will can resist and reject God’s grace :
“You stiff-necked people…you always resist the Holy Spirit” (Acts 7:51). The angels possessed grace and perfectly intact intellect, and yet many of them freely sinned and rejected God. Adam and Eve possessed grace and a perfectly intact nature, and yet they freely sinned. How much more so is it possible for the born-again Christian, who possesses grace but also a wounded nature and a darkened intellect, to sin also. Paul mentions sins which keep a man from the Kingdom of God: fornication, adultery, homosexuality, theft, greed, and so on (1 Cor 6:9-10).
  1. We cannot confuse Election with being “Born Again” :
The set of those who are “born again” (in Catholic and historic Christian understanding those who have been regenerated “of water and Spirit” in the Sacrament of Baptism — John 3:3,5; Acts 2:38) is not necessarily co-extensive with the set of those who will persevere and gain eternal life. Born-again Christians can and (sadly) do fall away. Otherwise free will and (mortal) sin are merely fictitious for a Christian during this life of testing and pilgrimage. Otherwise all the language in Scripture of persevering to the end in order to be saved (cf. Matt 10:22; 24:13; Phil 2:12-13) makes no sense.

The Pelagian heretics held that man alone (apart from God’s grace) is responsible for his salvation. Calvinists start with the opposite premise that God alone is responsible for man’s salvation
 
Hi, PRmerger,

Well, let’s not keep him in ignorance! Here is a link:
newadvent.org/cathen/11604a.htm

God bless
If you cannot provide a source, it’s better to just admit that you can’t. And admit that you haven’t actually read Pelagius.

Heh. 😃

It appears that, as I suspected, since you have gotten the man’s name wrong (not just once, BTW), that you, in fact, have never actually read this man’s writings. His name happens to be Pelagius. Not Pelagian.

Just sayin’. If someone’s going to make some outrageous comment, then can’t back it up, what everyone suspected most likely is true. 🤷
 
If you are free then why do you need grace (Jn 15:5)?

If you are free, why can’t you freely come to Christ (Jn 6:44, 65)?

You’re will is not free, but is in bondage to sin (Jn 8:34).

Please explain how man’s will, described in Scripture as being in bondage to sin, is free? Please. I’d love to hear your explanation.
I think ‘man’s will’ is what’s free…his mind and soul can do as he wishes. It is the flesh of man that is in ‘bondage to sin’, bound by the needs…food, clothing, warmth, etc. 😦
 
I think ‘man’s will’ is what’s free…his mind and soul can do as he wishes. It is the flesh of man that is in ‘bondage to sin’, bound by the needs…food, clothing, warmth, etc. 😦
Sig is under suspension. So we’ll have to wait until he returns.😦

🍿 I guess I’ll get fat eating popcorn until that time.😃
 
Sig is under suspension. So we’ll have to wait until he returns.😦

🍿 I guess I’ll get fat eating popcorn until that time.😃
Well, Michael Francis was up early. 😃

Looks like we have two posters suspended on this thread. Seems it might have gotten a little out of hand which is such a shame since this is a very interesting discussion.

Guess I’ll join in on the popcorn too. 🍿 Do you use real butter on yours? I do. Yum.
 
Well, Michael Francis was up early. 😃

Looks like we have two posters suspended on this thread. Seems it might have gotten a little out of hand which is such a shame since this is a very interesting discussion.

Guess I’ll join in on the popcorn too. 🍿 Do you use real butter on yours? I do. Yum.
In the real world, no I don’t eat popcorn.😦 Just in cyber space.😃
 
(Edited)

The God I believe in is revealed in Scripture. :yup:

God bless.
Indeed He is 👍! Romans 2: 5-8 God will repay each man according to his works. 2Cor. 5: 10, recompense accord’s to what we do in body. 2Cor11: 15, there end will correspond to their deeds. 1Peter1: 17, God judges impartially according to one’s works. Rev 20: 12-13dead judged according to deeds.

Assurance of salvation:D

Matt. 7: 21, not all who say Lord,Lord, will be saved only those that do the will of the Father. Matt. 24: 13, those who perserve to the end will be saved. Romans 11:22,remain in His kindness or you will be cut off. Phil. 2: 12,work out your salvation in fear and trembling. 1cor.9: 27,drive the body for fear of being disqualified. 1Cor 10: 11-12, those thinking they are secure may fall. Gal 5: 4, separated from Christ you fall from grace. Heb 6:4-6, describe sharers in the Holy Spirit who fall away. Heb 10: 26-27, if sin after receiving truth judgment remains.

Peace
 
If you are free then why do you need grace (Jn 15:5)?
Grace opens the door to heaven. You can’t go to heaven if the door isn’t opened for you.
But you still have to walk through the door. You are free to walk the other way and unfortunately many people do.

You choice of scripture is interesting but it can’t be what you were looking for:
John 15:
  • 1 “I am the true vine,* and my Father is the vine grower.
    2 He takes away every branch in me that does not bear fruit, and everyone that does he prunes* so that it bears more fruit.
    3 You are already pruned because of the word that I spoke to you.
    4 Remain in me, as I remain in you. Just as a branch cannot bear fruit on its own unless it remains on the vine, so neither can you unless you remain in me.
    5 I am the vine, you are the branches. Whoever remains in me and I in him will bear much fruit, because without me you can do nothing. 6 Anyone who does not remain in me will be thrown out like a branch and wither; people will gather them and throw them into a fire and they will be burned. 7 If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask for whatever you want and it will be done for you.
    8 By this is my Father glorified, that you bear much fruit and become my disciples
    9 As the Father loves me, so I also love you. Remain in my love.
    10 If you keep my commandments, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commandments and remain in his love.
you quote verse 5. Verse 6 clearly shows that people can lose their grace (salvation in yoru terms). You remain in Jesus’ love by keeping his commandments…
If you are free, why can’t you freely come to Christ (Jn 6:44, 65)?
You need to be invited to the party. Once invited, you can decide whether or not you want to go, or whether or not you want to stay. If you had read two more lines, you would see this:

66As a result of this, many [of] his disciples returned to their former way of life and no longer accompanied him.
67Jesus then said to the Twelve, “Do you also want to leave?”
68Simon Peter answered him, “Master, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life.

Notice, Some decided to leave and others decided to stay. that is free will in action.
You’re will is not free, but is in bondage to sin (Jn 8:34).
Sig, do you actually read the bible or just proof points. here is the full passage:
31 Jesus then said to those Jews who believed in him,* “If you remain in my word, you will truly be my disciples,
32 and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”
33 They answered him, “We are descendants of Abraham and have never been enslaved to anyone.* How can you say, ‘You will become free’?”
34 Jesus answered them, “Amen, amen, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is a slave of sin.
35 A slave does not remain in a household forever, but a son* always remains.
36 So if a son frees you, then you will truly be free.

So the truth will set you free but sin enslaves you. And if stay in Jesus, you will be tuly free. Not exactly what you were saying. You really need to understand Catholic Tradition to understand scripture properly.
Please explain how man’s will, described in Scripture as being in bondage to sin, is free? Please. I’d love to hear your explanation.
If you accept the grace of Jesus, you will be free. If you turn away that grace, you will be a slave to sin. That’s what grace does, it gives you the strength to avoid sin.
 
Lisa, you don’t have to wait. You had questions of your own to resolve. Lets have at them…
 
Indeed He is 👍! Romans 2: 5-8 God will repay each man according to his works. 2Cor. 5: 10, recompense accord’s to what we do in body. 2Cor11: 15, there end will correspond to their deeds. 1Peter1: 17, God judges impartially according to one’s works. Rev 20: 12-13dead judged according to deeds.

Assurance of salvation:D

Matt. 7: 21, not all who say Lord,Lord, will be saved only those that do the will of the Father. Matt. 24: 13, those who perserve to the end will be saved. Romans 11:22,remain in His kindness or you will be cut off. Phil. 2: 12,work out your salvation in fear and trembling. 1cor.9: 27,drive the body for fear of being disqualified. 1Cor 10: 11-12, those thinking they are secure may fall. Gal 5: 4, separated from Christ you fall from grace. Heb 6:4-6, describe sharers in the Holy Spirit who fall away. Heb 10: 26-27, if sin after receiving truth judgment remains.

Peace
Yeah, it sure seems like the will would have to be involved according to those verses. If not, I wonder why the writers even bothered to offer them?
 
paul c, the green is very hard to read. Can you change it? (A color blind person would have a problem trying to figure that out.)
 
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