SPLIT: Once Saved Always Saved? (Revisited)

[Odell]

Sufficient grace has an operating effect only (empowering the will to act) whereas an efficacious grace has both an operating and cooperating effect (applying the will to act). Sufficient grace remains an interior impulse, whereas an efficacious grace produces an exterior act. The mystery is that with sufficient grace, man is able to cooperate with grace to perform an act, but freely chooses not to, and God permits him to resist. With efficacious grace, man is able to resist the grace but does not, because the grace freely causes him to freely choose the good. In both cases man is completely free. But the evil comes from man and the good comes from God in both cases. Something else that is lost in Calvinism.

So you might understand potency. If I’m sitting on my couch, my power to stand is in potency. This means I truly have the ability to stand, not just a theoretical ability. If the phone rings, I have the power to stand up (move from potency to act) and answer the phone. If I choose to remain sitting, my power to stand remains in potency. If I later discover my wife was calling me due to an emergency, I will not be able to blame my wife for my refusal to stand up. (actualise my potency) if my wife told me earlier in the day to answer the phone. I would be guilt. If God grants me sufficent grace but I do not respond I can only blame myself.

My wife by telling to answer the phone because If she calls it’s important puts a choice in front of me that I would not refuse to do. (efficacious grace) my power to resist is in potency. But it is still within my freedom to or answer the phone.

This is all a mystery. We will not understand it all. But there are truths that can not be denied. That is we can not gain eternal life on our own. No good comes from us with out the grace of God. If so some good would come from something other than the source of all good. We also know man is not determined by mans sins nor does he cause mans sins. This in my opinion is best tackled by Thomas Aquinas.

 

[onenow1]

Hi, I have read most of the posts here; and began to wonder what the missing ingredient,{thought} could be ? Maybe just maybe ? The tapestry{foreknowledge} that God uses, to see time, all at once, gives Him a view of how to mete out His justice, according to what He knows of each individuals heart, throughout their particular time on earth. Yes God is Mercy, and also Justice and Love. Isn’t this why He could come down to earth to make Redemption possible for all{ many} ?

Peace

 

[Odell]

Hi, I have read most of the posts here; and began to wonder what the missing ingredient,{thought} could be ? Maybe just maybe ? The tapestry{foreknowledge} that God uses, to see time, all at once, gives Him a view of how to mete out His justice, according to what He knows of each individuals heart, throughout their particular time on earth. Yes God is Mercy, and also Justice and Love. Isn’t this why He could come down to earth to make Redemption possible for all{ many} ?

Peace

But onenow if this was true God justice would be determined by mans sin and God is unmoved he is pure act. So it must be that God permits sin, and punishment of that sin (His Justice) all within His eternal decree. God wills punishment while He wills the permission of sin. Thus the will of God to withhold grace and punish in His justice implies no change in God. Does that make sense?

 

[TinaG]

Just to confuse things maybe I’ll try to get back on topic (are we off topic? No, but to say we are is confusing, and I AM confused).

God is outside of time. God saves some. Others are not saved. Their eternal condition (outside of time) is not contingent upon a subjective reference, but is a reality - from beginning to end of their existence. looking outside of time, they always were either saved or not-saved - salvation or damnation being an actuality that encompasses all of them. In this sense (if I can figure out what I just wrote) foreknowledge and predestination can be considered to be the same thing, as all things in God are one, without division: in God thought, action, will, motive, observation, knowledge, etc., are all the same undivided thing. So He must look at someone with regard to their final condition in a way that we cannot. Once saved, always saved, in a meaning that goes back in time as well as forward in a person’s life. There is in this sense no moment of salvation, as it is a complete act, a status if you will, from conception onwards.

-Tina “Let’s You and Me and Aquinas and Calvin get Together for Some Gin Rummy!! WHoo-HOO” G

 

[fhansen]

Just to confuse things maybe I’ll try to get back on topic (are we off topic? No, but to say we are is confusing, and I AM confused).

God is outside of time. God saves some. Others are not saved. Their eternal condition (outside of time) is not contingent upon a subjective reference, but is a reality - from beginning to end of their existence. looking outside of time, they always were either saved or not-saved - salvation or damnation being an actuality that encompasses all of them. In this sense (if I can figure out what I just wrote) foreknowledge and predestination can be considered to be the same thing, as all things in God are one, without division: in God thought, action, will, motive, observation, knowledge, etc., are all the same undivided thing. So He must look at someone with regard to their final condition in a way that we cannot. Once saved, always saved, in a meaning that goes back in time as well as forward in a person’s life. There is in this sense no moment of salvation, as it is a complete act, a status if you will, from conception onwards.

-Tina “Let’s You and Me and Aquinas and Calvin get Together for Some Gin Rummy!! WHoo-HOO” G

I’d agree that God knows who’re saved from the beginning. But to know that probably does us absolutely nothing-it remains a moot, academic point because only He knows-He wouldn’t even want us to know with certainty-He wants to draw us into salvation. He may exist in eternity but created us in time, for a purpose, to work out our salvation linearly, progressively, within that time allowed.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, TinaG,

OSAS creates not only a major distortion - but on-going problems in the life of anyone who truly embarks on this path. Let me explain…

Time is a creation of God - and, yes, God is outside of time. There is no way we can honestly know - much less imagine, what the Eternal Now is like. And, only God can have this view of us so that what is incomprehensible to us, is God in action. By the same token, only God can know who is one of ‘The Elect’ and who is a reprobate. For us to speculate on such matters runs the risk of endangering our own souls - like a poster said earlier, it is really beyond our grasp.

Look how you expressed part of this reality: God saves some. Others are not saved. As opposed to: “God Redeemed all men”, or “Christ died so that all may have life” Some will indeed go to Hell - but, this is NOT because God did not save them - it is because these lost souls refused to cooperate with the Grace of God. As I read what you wrote, somehow, God desided that a particular person was going to get the short end of the stick before they were even created - much less actually using their Free Will to chose weather to obey God or not.

How God can be Perfect Justice AND Perfect Mercy is truly a mystery. But, our job is not to figure this out - only to believe it and to act according to that belief - and we do that by cooperating with the Grace of God.

God bless

Just to confuse things maybe I’ll try to get back on topic (are we off topic? No, but to say we are is confusing, and I AM confused).

God is outside of time. God saves some. Others are not saved. Their eternal condition (outside of time) is not contingent upon a subjective reference, but is a reality - from beginning to end of their existence. looking outside of time, they always were either saved or not-saved - salvation or damnation being an actuality that encompasses all of them. In this sense (if I can figure out what I just wrote) foreknowledge and predestination can be considered to be the same thing, as all things in God are one, without division: in God thought, action, will, motive, observation, knowledge, etc., are all the same undivided thing. So He must look at someone with regard to their final condition in a way that we cannot. Once saved, always saved, in a meaning that goes back in time as well as forward in a person’s life. There is in this sense no moment of salvation, as it is a complete act, a status if you will, from conception onwards.

-Tina “Let’s You and Me and Aquinas and Calvin get Together for Some Gin Rummy!! WHoo-HOO” G

 

[TinaG]

Hi, TinaG,

OSAS creates not only a major distortion - but on-going problems in the life of anyone who truly embarks on this path. Let me explain…

Time is a creation of God - and, yes, God is outside of time. There is no way we can honestly know - much less imagine, what the Eternal Now is like. And, only God can have this view of us so that what is incomprehensible to us, is God in action. By the same token, only God can know who is one of ‘The Elect’ and who is a reprobate. For us to speculate on such matters runs the risk of endangering our own souls - like a poster said earlier, it is really beyond our grasp.

Look how you expressed part of this reality: God saves some. Others are not saved. As opposed to: “God Redeemed all men”, or “Christ died so that all may have life” Some will indeed go to Hell - but, this is NOT because God did not save them - it is because these lost souls refused to cooperate with the Grace of God. As I read what you wrote, somehow, God desided that a particular person was going to get the short end of the stick before they were even created - much less actually using their Free Will to chose weather to obey God or not.

How God can be Perfect Justice AND Perfect Mercy is truly a mystery. But, our job is not to figure this out - only to believe it and to act according to that belief - and we do that by cooperating with the Grace of God.

God bless

I think you better take it up with Thomas Aquinas, then. You are arguing with him, not me.

-Tina “Not that I am Thomas Aquinas” G

 

[TinaG]

The question as to whether you can actually know whether you are going to heaven is a different question entirely from the one we are presently discussing.

-Tina “I KNOW I am saved and going to heaven. Yee-hah!!” G

 

[tqualey]

Hi, TinaG,

Well… you’re half right…

We are all saved by Christ’s dying on the Cross.

But, St. Paul, never one to minimize a reality, tells us:

(Phil2:12-13)
12 So then, my beloved, obedient as you have always been, not only when I am present but all the more now when I am absent, work out your salvation with fear and trembling.* 13For God is the one who, for his good purpose, works in you both to desire and to work.

Claiming one is saved by Christ is not a issue. Claiming one is going to heaven as a fact is something that OSAS is all about - and is simply not supported by Scripture, Sacred Tradition or the 2,000 teaching history of the Catholic Church. People still have a free will and can use that free will to reject God. Denying this is to deny a lot.

God bless

The question as to whether you can actually know whether you are going to heaven is a different question entirely from the one we are presently discussing.

-Tina “I KNOW I am saved and going to heaven. Yee-hah!!” G

 

[Sig]

Gee, got me again, Sig. What I said was:

"If man has no free will, then he can’t be held responsible for sin."

which is perfectly consistent with:

Yes, in Catholicism, God holds man responsible for what man can do with God’s aid. If he won’t accept the life preserver, he drowns.

And I said that your statement is pretty much what Pelagius said.

Pelagius said God can only hold man responsible for what man is capable of doing.

What Pelagius states positively, you state negatively, but both statements are pretty much the same. The readers can come to their own conclusions.

Do you really think the CC teaches that man cannot be held responsible for sin-that he has no free will whatsoever? But moral responsibility is not equivalent to Pelagianism.

What I said is not directed at your church, but at what you said

What do you prefer, antinomianism? Maybe we should throw all civil law out the door, too. This is the problem, you think men are so depraved, so incapable of obedience, that they haven’t the slightest degree of willpower to contribute to doing what’s right. They’re like an unconscious drowning man.

The doctrine of man’s depravity has nothing to do with antinomianism. That’s a misunderstanding on your part.

The doctrine acknowledges that unredeemed men are capable of doing kind and heroic things for their fellow man. What the unredeemed are incapable of doing are good things before God, particularly, repenting and believing the Gospel.

Romans 8:6-8 concludes with these words: ”So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.” The unredeemed cannot please God. That is the testimony of the Holy Spirit. Would believing in God, and doing what you refer to as “the right thing,” be pleasing to God? If so, then unredeemed, unsaved man cannot do the right thing, at least, not according what to what the Holy Spirit says in Romans 8 he can’t.

The doctrine of man’s “depravity” has to do with unredeemed man’s inability to make himself right with God. It should be referred to and understood as man’s “total inability” to please God.

In Catholicism, God may have to wake man up but He doesn’t force the life-preserver on Him-He draws responsibility out of the man, expecting him to contribute what he can at every turn, to grab hold of the life-preserver.

Maybe that’s the problem. Scripturally, unsaved men are not said to be asleep, but "DEAD IN TRESPASSES AND SINS.”

That’s probably why men can’t grab the life-preserver. Have you seen dead people? Go to the morgue and proclaim the Gospel of Jesus Christ to the dead.

Pay attention to the response you get from them. Listen real hard.

See, you’re not quite as bad as you think, Sig, not the scum-bag you thought you were. God just wants to make a man out of you-a god-man, actually. He knows your potential and has higher expectations for you than you could ever have for yourself, and He will accomplish them. Well, if you cooperate, that is.

You don’t know the half of it.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, TinaG,

Well, I guess you have me there … I really do not know what you mean. Maybe a reference or link would be helpful so that that quote and its context can be examined. Are you saying that St. Thomas Aquinas supported OSAS?

The entire context of the statement was that God has created souls specifically to damn and there is nothing these souls can do about it. The is the thrust of Calvin’s teaching and not St. Thomas’.

God bless

I think you better take it up with Thomas Aquinas, then. You are arguing with him, not me.

-Tina “Not that I am Thomas Aquinas” G

 

[Sig]

Indeed He is ! Romans 2: 5-8 God will repay each man according to his works. 2Cor. 5: 10, recompense accord’s to what we do in body. 2Cor11: 15, there end will correspond to their deeds. 1Peter1: 17, God judges impartially according to one’s works. Rev 20: 12-13dead judged according to deeds.

The works of everyone will be judged, but the judgment of the believer has already occurred at the cross of Christ. At the end, the believer shall not come into judgment… (Jn 5:24).

Matt. 7: 21, not all who say Lord,Lord, will be saved only those that do the will of the Father.

The primary will of the Father for all men is that they should repent of their sins and unbelief (Acts 17:30). Without obeying that, one can do nothing; he is apart from Christ (cf Jn 15:5).

Matt. 24: 13, those who perserve to the end will be saved.

Yep.

Romans 11:22,remain in His kindness or you will be cut off.

”I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish”—Jesus Christ.

Phil. 2: 12,work out your salvation in fear and trembling.

”Your” is a possessive pronoun. Salvation is the believer’s possession.

1cor.9: 27,drive the body for fear of being disqualified.

Begs the question: in the context of the passage, does being disqualified = loss of salvation? It’s not been proven that it does, but only intimated.

”I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish”—Jesus Christ.

1Cor 10: 11-12, those thinking they are secure may fall.

Begs the question: does falling = loss of salvation? It’s not been proven that it does, but only intimated.

”I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish”—Jesus Christ.

Gal 5: 4, separated from Christ you fall from grace.

In context, those separated from Christ, and fallen from grace are those who add their works to the works of Christ in order to be saved.

I believe in salvation by grace through faith alone.

Heb 6:4-6, describe sharers in the Holy Spirit who fall away.

It also says those who fall away can never repent. On the basis of what this passage says, I can only feel sorry for Catholic reverts who have fallen away from the church and returned.

Heb 10: 26-27, if sin after receiving truth judgment remains.

See above, Heb 6:4ff.

 

[UnityofTrinity]

so at the end we still arguing that God is someone who created someone with knowledge that he will never save them? That even with the gift of freewill He gifted them, they will never be able to acknowledge Him and love Him and thus saved?

 

[UnityofTrinity]

The works of everyone will be judged, but the judgment of the believer has already occurred at the cross of Christ. At the end, the believer shall not come into judgment… (Jn 5:24).
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.~John 5:24. Jesus never said anything about believers not coming into judgement, what about the passage where Paul said each man will be judged according to his works? The passage merely state: "If you hear my words, and believe in my words, then you will not be condemned, but has passed unto death to life. This does not mean he will never pass from life to death back, nor does it prove that the man will never lose his faith and thus his salvation.

”I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish”—Jesus Christ.

”Your” is a possessive pronoun. Salvation is the believer’s possession.

Begs the question: in the context of the passage, does being disqualified = loss of salvation? It’s not been proven that it does, but only intimated.
I give them eternal life, they shall never perishes. The context indicates a future event. They shall never perish. It also poses a conditional statement: “You are only imperishable as long as you remain in my words. This goes perfectly with Jesus words in John: “I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.””/COLOR]

”I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish”—Jesus Christ.

In context, those separated from Christ, and fallen from grace are those who add their works to the works of Christ in order to be saved.
and who would that be? The question is why they have fallen from grace in the first place? By doing charity? I guess my donation to St.Jude hospital really sealed my fate.

I believe in salvation by grace through faith alone.
“You see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.” ~James 2:24, interestingly this is the only passage with the phrase “faith alone” (or in this case, faith only)

It also says those who fall away can never repent. On the basis of what this passage says, I can only feel sorry for Catholic reverts who have fallen away from the church and returned.
The passage employs the concept of hyperbole which of course employs exaggeration. His anger was direct at the apostate who left the Church and was hostile to Christianity. It seem the anger is justified as the apostate at the time showed no efforts toward repentance. So thus his statement about the impossibility of their repentance is reflective of such situation.

.

 

[onenow1]

But onenow if this was true God justice would be determined by mans sin and God is unmoved he is pure act. So it must be that God permits sin, and punishment of that sin (His Justice) all within His eternal decree. God wills punishment while He wills the permission of sin. Thus the will of God to withhold grace and punish in His justice implies no change in God. Does that make sense?

Not exactly Odell, more so that He allows our freedom, in fact in Genesis He tells Cain that he has the ability to resist sin ! Gen 4:6-7] Certainly God does not change.

Sirach 15​

16 He has placed before you fire and water: stretch out your hand for whichever you wish.
17 Before a man are life and death, and whichever he chooses will be given to him.
18 For great is the wisdom of the Lord; he is mighty in power and sees everything;
19 his eyes are on those who fear him, and he knows every deed of man.
20 He has not commanded any one to be ungodly, and he has not given any one permission to sin.

Peace

 

[Odell]

The works of everyone will be judged, but the judgment of the believer has already occurred at the cross of Christ. At the end, the believer shall not come into judgment… (Jn 5:24).

No I’m pretty sure the warnings in scripture are directed to Christians.

Originally Posted by onenow1
Romans 11:22,remain in His kindness or you will be cut off.

”I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish”—Jesus Christ.

So what do we have here a contradiction? It would be nice if you explained the passage instead of dismiss it altogether.

You shall never perish if you remain. But it is clear you can be cut off.

“If you do not bare fruit you will be broken off and thrown into the fire” Jesus

In context, those separated from Christ, and fallen from grace are those who add their works to the works of Christ in order to be saved.

But those who have not fallen from grace the grace provides the works of Christ!

It also says those who fall away can never repent. On the basis of what this passage says, I can only feel sorry for Catholic reverts who have fallen away from the church and returned.

Only those whom hearts he hardens! Notice first it is you who hardens your own heart. God does not have to provide you with the grace that comes before repentence. Should make anyone pause before sinning Unless you believe you come to God in repentence without grace that precedes the act of repentence. I’m willing to bet you do not. So in short we have to repent but there is no guarantee that you will.

So it is clear in Hebrews he is talking to the saved. “those who count unworthy the. Loos that they were sanctified in” “no more sacrafice for sin is due”

Also the whole chapter is in contrast to the Jews who have fallen “He who despised Moses Law died without mercy…how much sorer a punishment shall be be thought worthy who hath troden under foot and hath county the blood he was sanctified unworthy?”

So you will die without mercy and even worse than the Jews. I wouldn’t take that lightly my friend.

 

[Odell]

Not exactly Odell, more so that He allows our freedom, in fact in Genesis He tells Cain that he has the ability to resist sin ! Gen 4:6-7] Certainly God does not change.
Peace

I’m not saying he dosnt alow our freedom but that. When Cain did sin it did not cause Him to then determine His punishment for Cain. No God permitted Cain to sin but at the same time willed punishment for that sin so that there is not change in God. I don’t think we are in disagreement but maybe you did not understand my point. Cain certainly had free will and God did not will him to sin as some Calvinist would contend.

 

[onenow1]

The works of everyone will be judged, but the judgment of the believer has already occurred at the cross of Christ. At the end, the believer shall not come into judgment… (Jn 5:24).

The primary will of the Father for all men is that they should repent of their sins and unbelief (Acts 17:30). Without obeying that, one can do nothing; he is apart from Christ (cf Jn 15:5). .

Hi, Sig

Jesus redeemed us, loosened the bonds of sin, {temptation- satan} but we must work out our salvation.Philippians 2:12 Matt. 7: 21, Matt. 24:13, 1Cor 9:27, 1Cor.10: 11-12,

Peace

 

[Sig]

No I’m pretty sure the warnings in scripture are directed to Christians.

The warnings are to those in the Church who have not converted viz, the tares among the wheat.

To the Christians Paul’s words are admonishment to Godly living. Remember, no one can bring a charge against God’s people; it is God who justifies (Rom 8:33).

So what do we have here a contradiction?

No.

It would be nice if you explained the passage instead of dismiss it altogether.

You shall never perish if you remain. But it is clear you can be cut off.

“If you do not bare fruit you will be broken off and thrown into the fire”

Where in John 10 does Jesus say what’s in the “blue?”

But those who have not fallen from grace the grace provides the works of Christ!

That’s not what the passage says, Odell.

Only those whom hearts he hardens! Notice first it is you who hardens your own heart. God does not have to provide you with the grace that comes before repentence. Should make anyone pause before sinning Unless you believe you come to God in repentence without grace that precedes the act of repentence. I’m willing to bet you do not. So in short we have to repent but there is no guarantee that you will.

So it is clear in Hebrews he is talking to the saved. “those who count unworthy the. Loos that they were sanctified in” “no more sacrafice for sin is due”

Also the whole chapter is in contrast to the Jews who have fallen “He who despised Moses Law died without mercy…how much sorer a punishment shall be be thought worthy who hath troden under foot and hath county the blood he was sanctified unworthy?”

So you will die without mercy and even worse than the Jews. I wouldn’t take that lightly my friend.

Odell, the Hebrews 6 passage says it is impossible for those who sin in the manner of “recrucifying” Jesus to ever again be brought to repentance. Ever!

 

[Sig]

Hi, Sig

Jesus redeemed us, loosened the bonds of sin, {temptation- satan} but we must work out our salvation.Philippians 2:12 Matt. 7: 21, Matt. 24:13, 1Cor 9:27, 1Cor.10: 11-12,

Peace

I’ve already responded to what you’ve posted, but you have repsponded to what I’ve posted.