SPLIT: Once Saved Always Saved? (Revisited)

[Odell]

FYI, Jesus giving eternal life in John 10:28 is in the present tense, it’s given to the believer when he believes (Jn 6:27, 40; cf 1 Jn 2:25; 5:11).

Are Catholics able to give a hearty amen to that? Or not?

The words “hear” and “follow” are present tense active verbs indicating continuous and ongoing actions with no guarantee that such actions remain.

Paul on the road to Damascus when Christ revealed himself to Paul was He given eternal life and regenerated, born again, washed in the blood of Christ Christian?After all Paul was (Acts:9) He was converted by Christ how much more born again can you get?

But In (Acts;22) Ananias tells Paul “arise and be baptized, and wash away you sins, invoking His name…and rising up he was baptized.”*
But wait a minute according to you Paul was already regenerated yet scripture tells us Paul’s sins were washed away several days later?
How do you make sense of this?
Ananias is saying Paul is still in his sins!*

Can one be saved if their sin is not washed away?

 

[tqualey]

Hi, PRmerger,

One of the interesting things about these wrenched-out ‘proof texts’ is that there is no context given. Christ, as you know, never even hinted at an endorsement for OSAS - in fact, he flatly condemned the Pharisees for their view that they were ‘children of Abraham’ and hence were ‘saved’. This was probably the 1st Century version of OSAS developed by the Jewish leadership. Christ went through that heresy like a hot knife through butter. This version did not exist in the Old Testament … it doesn’t exist in the New Testament … and, it has been unmasked, again!

So, here is the context of the John 10 verse and note - no endorsement for OSAS:

22The feast of the Dedication* was then taking place in Jerusalem. It was winter. 23* And Jesus walked about in the temple area on the Portico of Solomon. 24So the Jews gathered around him and said to him, “How long are you going to keep us in suspense?* If you are the Messiah, tell us plainly.”25Jesus answered them, “I told you* and you do not believe. The works I do in my Father’s name testify to me. 26But you do not believe, because you are not among my sheep. 27My sheep hear my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish. No one can take them out of my hand. 29My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all,* and no one can take them out of the Father’s hand.

Those who continue to follow Christ are His sheep - this means that they not only hear His Voice, but follow (obey) His Commands (‘Works’!). If these sheep continue to follow Christ they will be saved and be with God forever and no one can take them away from God. If they stop listening for Christ’s voice, stop following His Commands - yet think they are saved … then like any other lost sheep, they will wind up on the luncheon menu at the local wolf’s den!

God bless

Fair enough.

And Catholics give a hearty amen! to that.

If God grants us eternal life, and we are granted the beatific vision, we *will * indeed never perish.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, PRmerger,

Hey, PR, I can give a hearty, “Amen!” to that statement, too!

God bless

Fair enough.

And Catholics give a hearty amen! to that.

If God grants us eternal life, and we are granted the beatific vision, we *will * indeed never perish.

 

[Sig]

So you believe the rich will never enter heaven?

If scripture says the rich will never enter heaven, I believe it.

Does Scripture say that? Where?

Also I was willing to permit you the fact that Jesus is talking about the elect. I tend to agree with you. But you have yet addressed the fact that it is God who is the knowing in this passage not the believer. The believe does not know.

That’s not so. Scripture says the believer can know (John 20:31; Rom 8:16; 1 Jn 5:13).

Yes and justification and glorification are ongoing. Do you know what sanctification means because those who have been sactified can clearly profane the Spirit that sanctifies. You would have us believe something different to support your ideology. It’s clear that one who is sactified can lose their salvation.

Those verbs are aorist tense verbs; glorification is stated as already consummated (already/not yet).

 

[Sig]

The words “hear” and “follow” are present tense active verbs indicating continuous and ongoing actions with no guarantee that such actions remain.

The guarantee is that they “hear and follow;” OK?

IOW, Jesus is not saying that one is His sheep if one continuously hears and follows. Oh, no, no. What Jesus is saying is that His sheep continuously hear and follow Him.

Got that?

God bless.

 

[PRmerger]

Hi, PRmerger,

Hey, PR, I can give a hearty, “Amen!” to that statement, too!

God bless

Indeed. As the Bible is a Catholic book, written by Catholics, for Catholics, of course we give a to everything within its pages.

 

[PRmerger]

The guarantee is that they “hear and follow;” OK?

IOW, Jesus is not saying that one is His sheep if one continuously hears and follows. Oh, no, no. What Jesus is saying is that His sheep continuously hear and follow Him.

Got that?

God bless.

Except isn’t there something in the Bible about a stray sheep?

NB: This, Sig, is a rhetorical question, meant to induce a in the OSAS advocate.

 

[Odell]

Hi, Odell,

You’re not wrong.

The experiences that Paul had with people who began to believe but then for some reason fell away apparently happened in more than one area. Hebrews 6 and 1Tim4 are good examples.

In my opinion the Parable of the Sower (Matt 13:3-9) is probably a better example of those who once had the faith and lost it. All of the seeds left the Sower’s Hand. In real life, if we do not make the effort to find good soil (develop a prayer life) we will quickly find that there are many elements that will want to destroy our life with God. While we are still in Matt 13, we can look at the parable of the wheat and tares (v.24-30) - but, I think this is more the lesson on the desire of evil to invade the creation of God - and just how far evil will go.

The distinction is obvious, unless there is another agenda like trying to prove OSAS… for example with the wheat and tears we begin with the knowledge that the wheat are in the field and planted there by the Master. Secretly, the Devil provides the tares in an effort to destroy the crop that God has planted. In real life, sin does enter into our lives through our poor use of our Free Will. Some linger only a little while before repenting, while others never repent before they die. On the Last Day - the day of the Harvest - the wheat and tares will be separated. But, until then, it is our job to use our Free Will and choose to believe God’s Word, through His Church founded on Peter and do the good works that He has given us to do.

Maybe that is a good distinction between those two agricultural-type parables.

God bless

 

[Odell]

If scripture says the rich will never enter heaven, I believe it.

Does Scripture say that? Where?

That’s not so. Scripture says the believer can know (John 20:31; Rom 8:16; 1 Jn 5:13).

Those verbs are aorist tense verbs; glorification is stated as already consummated (already/not yet).

We know God will give us the reward of inheretence if we percevere in His grace. This is why Paul give so many warnings to those who you claim are eternally secured.

Also your having a lot of trouble with this sanctification aren’t you? If sanctification comes after justification and if those who are justified are eternally secured how is it that they receive a worse punishment?

 

[Sig]

Except isn’t there something in the Bible about a stray sheep?

And you’ll be proving that “stray sheep = a sheep that lost salvation” when?

That isn’t a rhetorical question.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, PRmerger,

Many in the Protestant Revolt, like to quote St. Augustine - but even a casual look at the life of this great saint shows that in his earlier days were spent grazing in other pastures… and hardly an example of one who remained in the Flock.

And, just to anticipate the question, if Augustine had died while in the state of mortal sin - he would have gone to hell. Period. But, look - he converted, stopped his sinning, and became a strong advocate for the Catholic Church! If there is a sheep example anywhere in Augustine’s life it would be the picture of the Good Shepherd carrying the lost lamb on His Shoulders.

Hmmmmmmmm … inducing OSAS advocates looks like it is getting harder and harder … With the recognition of Free Will, at least in some posters, it looks like OSAS gets a bit weaker to hang on to. In fact, images of the Good Shepherd are just downright difficult to reconcile with a capricious God who randomly assigns people to Hell.

God bless

Except isn’t there something in the Bible about a stray sheep?

NB: This, Sig, is a rhetorical question, meant to induce a in the OSAS advocate.

 

[Sig]

We know God will give us the reward of inheretence if we percevere in His grace. This is why Paul give so many warnings to those who you claim are eternally secured.

Also your having a lot of trouble with this sanctification aren’t you? If sanctification comes after justification and if those who are justified are eternally secured how is it that they receive a worse punishment?

You’ve ignored all of what I said in post 285.

 

[Odell]

:clapping::clapping::clapping::clapping:

Except isn’t there something in the Bible about a stray sheep?

NB: This, Sig, is a rhetorical question, meant to induce a in the OSAS advocate.

I wonder if his conversion was any better than Paul’s on Damascus Rd? And when was he actually regenerated? Because if he hasn’t than he isn’t even one of the elect that he has been defending?

 

[Odell]

You’ve ignored all of what I said in post 285.

I honestly don’t understand your argument. Could you clarify?

 

[Sig]

:clapping::clapping::clapping::clapping:



I wonder if his conversion was any better than Paul’s on Damascus Rd? And when was he actually regenerated? Because if he hasn’t than he isn’t even one of the elect that he has been defending?

Running out of meaningful things to say, and reduced to appealing to fear, are you?

 

[Sig]

I honestly don’t understand your argument. Could you clarify?

Be specific, Odell, please.

 

[PRmerger]

And you’ll be proving that “stray sheep = a sheep that lost salvation” when?

That isn’t a rhetorical question.

I am responding to this underlined and bolded comment you made.

Do you see how it is contrary to the fact that there is mention in the Holy Bible about stray sheep?

What Jesus is saying is that His sheep continuously hear and follow Him.

Got that?

If you could please explain your bolded and underlined comment in light of the fact that our Holy Bible mentions His sheep NOT continuously hearing and following him?

 

[Odell]

Running out of meaningful things to say, and reduced to appealing to fear, are you?

How is this not meaningful? You stated that one who believes is Christ has eternal life. Did Paul have eternal life on the road to Damascus prior to having his sins washed away?

Be specific, Odell, please.

You had this to say

I said in an earlier post that I believe that is referring to Jesus, who was set apart to God by His sacrifice (cf Jn 17:19), because you’re right, only true believers are sanctified, and rejecting Christ does insult the Spirit who worked through Him (Mt 12:31, 32), and who testifies of Him (Jn 15:26; 16:8-11), and who will never leave a believer once He seals him, but stays with Him forever (Jn 14:16).

The passage at hand says those who are sanctified deserve a more severe punishment. I’m interested in what you think this punishment might be? Especially since you agree that those who are sanctified are justified and have insulted the Spirit of God.

 

[Sig]

How is this not meaningful? You stated that one who believes is Christ has eternal life. Did Paul have eternal life on the road to Damascus prior to having his sins washed away?

As I’ve said over, and over, and over, and over, when one believes, Jesus gives them eternal life, and the choice of who would believe happened in eternity “past.”

You had this to say

The passage at hand says those who are sanctified deserve a more severe punishment. I’m interested in what you think this punishment might be? Especially since you agree that those who are sanctified are justified and have insulted the Spirit of God.

I haven’t agreed to that, Odell. You misread, or misunderstood what I said.

 

[Sig]

I am responding to this underlined and bolded comment you made.

Do you see how it is contrary to the fact that there is mention in the Holy Bible about stray sheep?

Where are they mentioned, PR?

If you could please explain your bolded and underlined comment in light of the fact that our Holy Bible mentions His sheep NOT continuously hearing and following him?

I can’t state it any clearer, PR. I’m sorry you don’t understand.