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Sig
Guest
I asked you where the bible talks about stray sheep, PR, so we can take a look at the context. Did you miss that, or are you intentionally avoiding it?Forgive me for being obtuse. If you could please explain–perhaps using different words,
this comment:
in light of the fact that the Holy Bible mentions stray sheep.
Thanks.
T
tqualey
Guest
Hi, PRmerger,
This looks like yet another red herring.
Israel is often compared to being a ‘sheep’ - docile and non-aggressive animals that follow the shepherd. And, while this is a good analogy for what God wanted - this was not always the case. Yes! There really were … stray sheep…!
Ezekiel 34:5
And they were scattered, because there is no shepherd: and they became meat to all the beasts of the field, when they were scattered.
In reality, God’s Chosen People had a rather checkered history of following God - they often married pagans, worshiped false gods and even sacrificed their children to idols. While Ezekiel talks about the sheep being scattered because of poor leadership - these sheep became stray - and immediately went on the menu when the wolf came on the scene. The wolf is used as a metaphor for the Devil. But in real life, sheep are eaten by wolves … souls that stray from Christ (even the ones who try to sing the tune OSAS) become prey to the Devil!
There is no doubt that ‘…stray sheep…’ exist and pay a stiff price for leaving the Flock.
God bless
This looks like yet another red herring.
Israel is often compared to being a ‘sheep’ - docile and non-aggressive animals that follow the shepherd. And, while this is a good analogy for what God wanted - this was not always the case. Yes! There really were … stray sheep…!
Ezekiel 34:5
And they were scattered, because there is no shepherd: and they became meat to all the beasts of the field, when they were scattered.
In reality, God’s Chosen People had a rather checkered history of following God - they often married pagans, worshiped false gods and even sacrificed their children to idols. While Ezekiel talks about the sheep being scattered because of poor leadership - these sheep became stray - and immediately went on the menu when the wolf came on the scene. The wolf is used as a metaphor for the Devil. But in real life, sheep are eaten by wolves … souls that stray from Christ (even the ones who try to sing the tune OSAS) become prey to the Devil!
There is no doubt that ‘…stray sheep…’ exist and pay a stiff price for leaving the Flock.
God bless
S
Sig
Guest
Did you read v14. It is the will of the Father that not one of these sheep should perish, and Jesus says they never will (Jn 10:28)
The sheep repented, and will never perish (Jn 10:28).
I hope everyone reads John 10 because it clearly makes my point.
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tqualey
Guest
Hi, Odell,
You are wasting your time if you expect a meaningful response. Look at how the post is baiting you - and for what? No answer exist that will satisfy - unless it is OSAS. The real issue is that questions asked are not answered, are evaded or the poster is taunted!
Now, I have an item for you …
You were wondering if Paul had eternal life en route to Damascus - and… I think he did! When it comes to be a fervent, God-fearing and truly zealous Jew, Saul of Tarsus is the man! My guess is that he ran circles around the other Pharisees in school, graduated with the 1st Century equivalent of ‘Suma Cum Laude’, then went out and put his faith in God into action by rounding up those early Catholics - the Followers of The Way! Saul of Tarsus was totally dedicated to God and in serving Him the best way he could. This is probably why God chose him en route to Damascus. Saul already had a ranging fire of devotion to God - but was confused as how to serve him. Christ straightened him out!
God bless
You are wasting your time if you expect a meaningful response. Look at how the post is baiting you - and for what? No answer exist that will satisfy - unless it is OSAS. The real issue is that questions asked are not answered, are evaded or the poster is taunted!
Now, I have an item for you …
You were wondering if Paul had eternal life en route to Damascus - and… I think he did! When it comes to be a fervent, God-fearing and truly zealous Jew, Saul of Tarsus is the man! My guess is that he ran circles around the other Pharisees in school, graduated with the 1st Century equivalent of ‘Suma Cum Laude’, then went out and put his faith in God into action by rounding up those early Catholics - the Followers of The Way! Saul of Tarsus was totally dedicated to God and in serving Him the best way he could. This is probably why God chose him en route to Damascus. Saul already had a ranging fire of devotion to God - but was confused as how to serve him. Christ straightened him out!
God bless
P
PRmerger
Guest
Catholics, of course, give a hearty amen! to these verses.
However, in light of these passages of sheep who STRAY, it is clear that this comment of yours below is untenable.
Clearly a STRAY sheep is not CONTINUOUSLY hearing and following, no?
Is not the essence of someone who strays that he is, well,* not* following?
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Sig
Guest
Untenable to whom?
A parable is a teaching device which generally makes one overall point. And, we’re talking about a verb action, a grammatical construct.
Did Peter stray when he denied Jesus? Did Jesus not call Peter, Satan? Was Peter not one of Jesus’ sheep? What does Jesus say about His sheep? Jesus says about His sheep that they continuously listen to Him and follow Him (the present tense construct). That is the mark of their life, as opposed to a life marked by continuous sin.
Hardly. You allege that your church is the one true church, and a requirement of your church is that its members confess their sins to a priest. Would you contend that the essence of your pope, who is required to confess his sins to another is, well, sin?Is not the essence of someone who strays that is, well,* not* following?
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FutureCatholic1
Guest
lets say a man gets married and has and continues to live his life for God then his wife dies a horrible death he turns from God and never goes back to God blaming God for his wife’s death was he never really saved i find it hard that when people turn from God it means the just weren’t saved as was the answer i got at my school. if funny when i asked questions that are hard to answer as protestant they gave me a weird answer like they were probably never a true christian to begin with or some other weird answer its also funny in a ironic way that the world attacks Christians. and protestants and the rest of the world will stop at nothing to attack Catholics
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FutureCatholic1
Guest
saw something on confession go to John 20:23 if im correct on these verse
and “our” is the wrong term its Christ church
and “our” is the wrong term its Christ church
O
Odell
Guest
As I have said God does give final preserverince to some efficient grace. But that does not mean he does not give all sufficient grace. I would contend that God gave Paul the efficient grace to have is sins washed away 2 days later after his conversion.
But that is not to say that some who do accept Jesus are all given are given the grace to repent. This is why Aquinas tought that the grace of final perseverance must include the grace for repentance. We know some sheep stray but that’s not to say God does not give all sufficient grace.
And I would agree with tqualey that Paul was saved on his conversion to Damascus. But again that does not mean all who are converted continue the race.
I’m sorry then you are not in agreement with most Protestants. Could you clarify again if you must. What is sanctification and when in ones life journey is one being sanctified in light of justification and eternal security?
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Sig
Guest
Only with those who believe as you do that salvation can be lost.
In its literal sense, sanctification is being “set apart” to God, and growing in holiness and righteousness, and it continues throughout ones lifetime.
P
PRmerger
Guest
Umm…yes. Is this a trick question?
(Rhetorical question, Sig. Rhetorical, 'kay?)
Yes, he did.
Indeed, he was.
Yes, and clearly Peter did NOT continuously listen to him. So either you must acknowledge that Peter was NOT one of his sheep, or Jesus meant something else than “my sheep will never be able to stray”.
This is very Catholic of you to say, Sig.
We do have the “mark” on our lives–it comes with baptism, and thus we do not have a life of “continuous sin”, if we cooperate with this “mark.”Not after he was baptized.Hardly. You allege that your church is the one true church, and a requirement of your church is that its members confess their sins to a priest. Would you contend that the essence of your pope, who is required to confess his sins to another is, well, sin?
O
Odell
Guest
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Sig
Guest
Folks can read my post 309, and decide for themselves.Heh.Well, to anyone who knows that “stray” doesn’t mean “continuously hears and follows”.
Absolutely true, Sig. Absolute true.
'Tis a non-sequitur, but true nonetheless.
T
tqualey
Guest
Hi, PRmerger,
Well, you certainly tried (Edited)
As far as Peter being a ‘straying sheep’ - I anticipated that, and yes the First Pope really did stray! He strayed with boasting he would never deny Christ at the Last Supper, running away in the garden, denying Christ x3, and doing so with oaths, and apparently having doubts about the Resurrection. And, yes, if Peter were guilty of mortal sin and died in that state, he would have gone to Hell! The issue is not ‘straying’ as such - but dying in that state.
Even the military has something similar … Absent With Out Leave (AWOL) can take effect from 1 second past where you should have been to up to 30 days - but after that upper limit, the offense then becomes 'Desertion" and this is much more serious!
While not recorded in Scripture, I think there is enough evidence to say that Peter repented of his offenses. Look at his actions from that First Pentecost on! The Holy Spirit was working in the First Pope in a very special way.
As far as I can tell, the evasion of sheep not straying is just a fantasy. The issue, as we see from the example of Israel, they strayed, God punished them, they returned … and this went over and over again. In fact, God decided to use a metaphor different from straying sheep as we see with Hosea. Instead of the virgin bride that Israel had been compared to, we find Gomer, local whore who God told Hosea to marry! Wow! talk about a shift in the story line! We move from straying sheep to a straying wife. The story - and here is a link: usccb.org/bible/hosea/1 - shows God’s incredible love. And, the idea is that ‘straying’ really does happen - Gomer had two bastard children from her whoring activities, ultimately wound up on a slave block in pretty ragged condition and was bought back by Hosea.
Now, we could go back to saying that all the sheep in the pasture are the sheep that did not stray - and we say that because the sheep are in the pasture. Such a comment is a waste of both breath and ink - obviously ! The sun rises in the east because … well, we are facing east and here it comes! The saved are saved because they are now with God … how about that. The problem comes when someone trying to sing the OSAS tune looks back before it is all over and says, “Yeah, he’s part of the Elect” Only God knows what is going to happen in the end - not man in general or any man in particular - beginning with Calvin and every other person who decided to set up the traditions of men instead of follow the Commands of Christ.
So, whether it is ‘straying sheep’ or a ‘straying spouse’ - the analogy is the same: people sin and God is there to forgive them IF they now will use their Free Will to repent. If they chose to remain in sin, then they have effectively chosen to go to Hell.
God bless
Well, you certainly tried (Edited)
As far as Peter being a ‘straying sheep’ - I anticipated that, and yes the First Pope really did stray! He strayed with boasting he would never deny Christ at the Last Supper, running away in the garden, denying Christ x3, and doing so with oaths, and apparently having doubts about the Resurrection. And, yes, if Peter were guilty of mortal sin and died in that state, he would have gone to Hell! The issue is not ‘straying’ as such - but dying in that state.
Even the military has something similar … Absent With Out Leave (AWOL) can take effect from 1 second past where you should have been to up to 30 days - but after that upper limit, the offense then becomes 'Desertion" and this is much more serious!
While not recorded in Scripture, I think there is enough evidence to say that Peter repented of his offenses. Look at his actions from that First Pentecost on! The Holy Spirit was working in the First Pope in a very special way.
As far as I can tell, the evasion of sheep not straying is just a fantasy. The issue, as we see from the example of Israel, they strayed, God punished them, they returned … and this went over and over again. In fact, God decided to use a metaphor different from straying sheep as we see with Hosea. Instead of the virgin bride that Israel had been compared to, we find Gomer, local whore who God told Hosea to marry! Wow! talk about a shift in the story line! We move from straying sheep to a straying wife. The story - and here is a link: usccb.org/bible/hosea/1 - shows God’s incredible love. And, the idea is that ‘straying’ really does happen - Gomer had two bastard children from her whoring activities, ultimately wound up on a slave block in pretty ragged condition and was bought back by Hosea.
Now, we could go back to saying that all the sheep in the pasture are the sheep that did not stray - and we say that because the sheep are in the pasture. Such a comment is a waste of both breath and ink - obviously ! The sun rises in the east because … well, we are facing east and here it comes!
The saved are saved because they are now with God … how about that. The problem comes when someone trying to sing the OSAS tune looks back before it is all over and says, “Yeah, he’s part of the Elect” Only God knows what is going to happen in the end - not man in general or any man in particular - beginning with Calvin and every other person who decided to set up the traditions of men instead of follow the Commands of Christ.So, whether it is ‘straying sheep’ or a ‘straying spouse’ - the analogy is the same: people sin and God is there to forgive them IF they now will use their Free Will to repent. If they chose to remain in sin, then they have effectively chosen to go to Hell.
God bless
Catholics, of course, give a hearty amen! to these verses.
However, in light of these passages of sheep who STRAY, it is clear that this comment of yours below is untenable.
Clearly a STRAY sheep is not CONTINUOUSLY hearing and following, no?
Is not the essence of someone who strays that he is, well,* not* following?
P
PRmerger
Guest
'zactly.
And if the straying spouse doesn’t repent, he stays, well, strayed. No reasonable person says that a spouse who left his wife for another woman “continuously hears and follows” his marriage vows.
No reasonable person declares that a man who embezzles money from his company “continuously hears and follows” his bank’s work ethic.
No reasonable person declares that a woman who ignores the advice of her GPS and ends up in Kalamazoo when she wanted to go to Pensacola that she “continuously hears and follows” the correct directions.
That’s some :whacky: messed up logic if one can profess that a straying person “continuously hears and follows” the right path.
S
Sig
Guest
I have not.
No, He doesn’t.
God has made two types of people from one lump of clay (Rom 9:21-23).
The first type are vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, and the second type are vessels of mercy prepared for glory.
Why would God give the grace to believe to those vessels prepared for destruction? They don’t need it. They’re vessels prepared for destruction.
Odell, even your church states that the number of the elect is fixed and unchangeable. That being true, those not elect to what your church refers to as “eternal blessedness,” are by default elected to hell.
Does that mean God has to actively cause those sinners to sin? No, sinners sin without any help from anyone. That’s why they’re called “sinners.”
Odell, according to the Romans 9 passage I’ve cited above, there are only sheep, and not-sheep.
The not-sheep are not granted repentance by God, only the sheep are.
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